Blind Mirage

[Dobermann92]

2 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

She can be useful to have without completely and utterly removing action and combat from a game centered around action and combat. 

Endgame is a CC fest, so no......

[Hellmaker2004]

5 hours ago, Dobermann92 said:

Endgame is a CC fest, so no......

End game such as Trials and Sortier 1 to 3. Then i disagree.

 

End game such as level 8000 foes in survival / Interception? Perhaps we should not balance the game around where we potentialy can go to, if so how does damage frames compete with any frames at that level?

[(PSN)Nyxn607]

If someone has mentioned it already I apologize.  I agree with OP that LOS should be looked at closer, as long as they take into account doors and windows in relation to the detonation.  Take the sun for example, it may be facing North with the only open doors and windows on the south side, but light still travels in the rooms.  How would that work with Mirage's blind?  Would it be less of an effect since it will not be as bright?  Would it have the same effect regardless?  Just a thought

[Rhaenxys]

Personally i think its more a problem with how blind works than mirage, blind CC effect is too powerful, enemies need to be tweaked to fight back or at least better than the current situation.

LoS just doesnt work for prism, with the huge cast time and nearly no control of the trajectory is a bit unnecessary, considering is also a four ability and the damage is a bit mediocre, the blind range could be reduced though to 15 meters as an example instead of the current 25m.

[Kinjeto]

At the moment Prism is fine.

You can mod it for CC, Damage (Prism or Doppleganger %50 mod) and you can mod Mirage lots of different ways. Explosive Ledgermein could use a bit of tweaking other than that. It's fine.

You can also mod Mirage into Total Eclipse damage buffing build. Which is really cool.

I've taken Nyx's in Raids but no one likes Rad Proc because it needs to be enhanced to not be crap or garbage.

Maybe make rad procs on Nyx raise threat level on Psychic Bolts on the targets they hit.

Theres a winner idea right there.

More importantly when you think about augment mods as a designer REALLY CHANGE UP HOW THE USER USES THE CASTING SPEED, DURAITON, STRETCH AND POWER STRENGTH MODS.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Kinjeto

[Eliakin]

Prism need to really get LoS at least to let the monsters of the map at least leave their spaw.

Because it would not be much more easily remove LoS on Radial Bilnd and let Excalibur get pressing 2 nonstop that already the skill it well and fast that the mirage.

 

 

[Kinjeto]

9 minutes ago, Eliakin said:

Prism need to really get LoS at least to let the monsters of the map at least leave their spaw.

Because it would not be much more easily remove LoS on Radial Bilnd and let Excalibur get pressing 2 nonstop that already the skill it well and fast that the mirage.

 

 

It already has a duration attached to it. Much like blessing does on Trin.

Exalted Blade became the new Ultimate on Excal for a reason. I'm sure you can figure out why.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Kinjeto

[(PSN)adam4213]

Adding LoS to Prism is one of the most stupidest ideas I have ever seen. Do that and you will destroy Prism. If Prism has LoS applied to it, then it will be no different from Excalibur's Radial Blind. They both have the same blind radius and blind duration. Radial Blind also opens enemies up to finishers, Prism does not. Not to mention one is a 4th ability while the other is only a 2nd ability. Do you see the problem here? The only thing separating these two abilities is LoS and since Prism is a 4th ability I think it's fine not having LoS. 

With that being said, adding LoS to Prism is not the right way to go about it. Until the entire game gets properly balanced, ill almost always disagree with any nerf thread. People like to complain about OP we are but forget how ridiculously strong the enemies are as well. They have just as many cheap abilities too, never mind the completely broken armour scaling. 

Edited April 24, 2016 by (PS4)adam4213

[IamTheSparta]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)adam4213 said:

Adding LoS to Prism is one of the most stupidest ideas I have ever seen. Do that and you will destroy Prism. If Prism has LoS applied to it, then it will be no different from Excalibur's Radial Blind. They both have the same blind radius and blind duration. Radial Blind also opens enemies up to finishers, Prism does not. Not to mention one is a 4th ability while the other is only a 2nd ability. Do you see the problem here? The only thing separating these two abilities is LoS and since Prism is a 4th ability I think it's fine not having LoS. 

With that being said, adding LoS to Prism is not the right way to go about it. Until the entire game gets properly balanced, ill almost always disagree with any nerf thread. People like to complain about OP we are but forget how ridiculously strong the enemies are as well. They have just as many cheap abilities too, never mind the completely broken armour scaling. 

It is a 4 but it does not cost 100 energy yes?

So be quiet.

[(PSN)adam4213]

45 minutes ago, IamTheSparta said:

It is a 4 but it does not cost 100 energy yes?

So be quiet.

That's beside the point. If Prism has LoS applied to it then it will be worse than Radial Blind as it also opens enemies up to finishers while Prism does not. There's also the Radiant Finish augment which adds 300% more finisher damage to enemies blinded by Excalibur. 

Edited April 24, 2016 by (PS4)adam4213

[Eliakin]

As far as I know when the last skill of Excalibur was radial javelin received the nerf of LoS even before its rework.

then even if the prism is the 4 skill she also deserves a nerf.

When the radial javelin was 4 skill of excalibuir it was same as prims kill monsters and blind before leaving their spaw.

 

[Gurpgork]

23 hours ago, Dobermann92 said:

Endgame is a CC fest, so no......

What constitutes endgame in your opinion? Is it Sortie missions? Because those are still quite manageable without gamebreaking crowd control. 

And if endgame isn't manageable without breaking the game, then endgame is too hard.  

45 minutes ago, (PS4)adam4213 said:

Do you see the problem here? The only thing separating these two abilities is LoS and since Prism is a 4th ability I think it's fine not having LoS. 

Prism also does damage before it Blinds. But I would honestly be surprised if most players even remembered that tidbit. 

Even if Prism only had its lack of LoS going for it, that can be compensated somewhere else, such as making the damage that it deals actually matter. Prism can be unique without being an order of magnitude better than just about every other crowd control ability in the game. 

46 minutes ago, (PS4)adam4213 said:

With that being said, adding LoS to Prism is not the right way to go about it. Until the entire game gets properly balanced, ill almost always disagree with any nerf thread. People like to complain about OP we are but forget how ridiculously strong the enemies are as well. They have just as many cheap abilities too, never mind the completely broken armour scaling. 

Do you know why enemies have so many cheap abilities? It's because we have stuff like Prism that can turn off the game and absolutely remove what little challenge the game has in the first place. The only way that DE found that they could make enemies stand a chance is by adding enemies who could completely prevent us from using our abilities. 

The entire game cannot be properly balanced as long as we have abilities like Prism. 

[(PSN)adam4213]

18 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Prism also does damage before it Blinds. But I would honestly be surprised if most players even remembered that tidbit. 

Even if Prism only had its lack of LoS going for it, that can be compensated somewhere else, such as making the damage that it deals actually matter. Prism can be unique without being an order of magnitude better than just about every other crowd control ability in the game. 

It could but I don't see that happening. DE will probably nerf Prism sooner or later and it will be become another completely trash ability. I know Prism deals damage but in it's current state, it's simply not worth modding for. Even with lots of power strength the damage is still poor. 

18 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Do you know why enemies have so many cheap abilities? It's because we have stuff like Prism that can turn off the game and absolutely remove what little challenge the game has in the first place. The only way that DE found that they could make enemies stand a chance is by adding enemies who could completely prevent us from using our abilities. 

The entire game cannot be properly balanced as long as we have abilities like Prism. 

I know why they have so many cheap abilities. The problem is that we will get nerfed while the enemies will remain the same. I would be completely fine with some abilities getting nerfed or changed but only if the enemies receive the same treatment. Right now it's just a constant power struggle back and forth. A new frame gets released with an OP power. Then an enemy will be introduced with another cheap ability and the cycle will continue over and over again. And until the entire game gets completely balanced, I don't see this stopping anytime soon unfortunately. 

Edited April 24, 2016 by (PS4)adam4213

[Kinjeto]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)adam4213 said:

That's beside the point. If Prism has LoS applied to it then it will be worse than Radial Blind as it also opens enemies up to finishers while Prism does not. There's also the Radiant Finish augment which adds 300% more finisher damage to enemies blinded by Excalibur. 

Right so, if Prism doesn't open up enemies to Finishers. It's fine.

It's fine.

Side note: (It's not really much of a big deal.)

If you mod it with Blind Rage you're going to drain more energy for the disco ball. But, go figure, whatever. So what's the big deal? 

I could mod it to do damage if I wanted. Quite possibly a very interesting ultimate.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Kinjeto

[(PSN)adam4213]

5 minutes ago, Kinjeto said:

Right so, if Prism doesn't open up enemies to Finishers. It's fine.

It's fine.
 

So what are you getting at exactly? Radial Blind has the same range and duration as Prism.

Edited April 24, 2016 by (PS4)adam4213

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

On 4/23/2016 at 0:11 PM, DarkRuler2500 said:

There was a Nerf exclamation a way ago regarding her 100% link which DE then changed.

Now link is barely used because to use a good link you need Duration which kills EV trin.

I didn't know her Link was nerfed, hmph no wonder even with my blessing build I can't get a good enough duration...

 

On 4/23/2016 at 1:20 PM, Hellmaker2004 said:

 

There is currently a weekly quota of Nerf Trinity once a week as a minimum. The problem with Trinity is that people forget there are two builds, one where you can exploit. And another that dismiss any concept of energy management in the game.

And then people complain about her capability's from both builds and act like one build can perform them both at the same time.

The energy vampire build is a must on the LoR, as well as coupled with the augment mod is an incredibly strong squad member to have in your team. A plus is that she really only needs Streamline, not even Fleeting Expertise cause she's a energy + health powerhouse. The blessing build makes solo'ing with her even more useful, pop on Abating Link, high duration and the enemies have less armour but she still needs a CP to make the enemies armour weaker.

[Hellmaker2004]

5 minutes ago, LittleArachnid said:

The energy vampire build is a must on the LoR, as well as coupled with the augment mod is an incredibly strong squad member to have in your team. A plus is that she really only needs Streamline, not even Fleeting Expertise cause she's a energy + health powerhouse. The blessing build makes solo'ing with her even more useful, pop on Abating Link, high duration and the enemies have less armour but she still needs a CP to make the enemies armour weaker.

LoR regular or nightmare? For Nightmare i have no input since i have yet to do it.

 

But regular LoR i disagree on.

I have done it with Blessing Trinity(Not using self damage), Frost, Loki and Saryn. And it worked like a charm, found it to be quite easy as well. The only problem we had was me dying when unlinked with foes. Or our Loki getting caught in the crossfire.

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

3 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

LoR regular or nightmare? For Nightmare i have no input since i have yet to do it.

 

But regular LoR i disagree on.

I have done it with Blessing Trinity(Not using self damage), Frost, Loki and Saryn. And it worked like a charm, found it to be quite easy as well. The only problem we had was me dying when unlinked with foes. Or our Loki getting caught in the crossfire.

It doesn't necessarily mean that EV Trinity isn't helpful in a mission though, I've used the vampire build when I was in a squad with a friend and two randoms and helped provide energy when fighting Vay Hek.

[Hellmaker2004]

2 minutes ago, LittleArachnid said:

It doesn't necessarily mean that EV Trinity isn't helpful in a mission though, I've used the vampire build when I was in a squad with a friend and two randoms and helped provide energy when fighting Vay Hek.

Oh it is indeed helpful, i never said it was not. I was merely responding to you implying " The energy vampire build is a must on the LoR "

 

I am against the current design of Energy Vampire, not because it offers energy. Trinity need it to heal her allies. But does she really have to give that amount to all allies as well?

I do not think she does, sure as a support frame she could offer energy to allies. But the current value she gives out is extremely high, this is noticed even more so if you use a EV build (High power strength, high range and low duration).

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

1 minute ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Oh it is indeed helpful, i never said it was not. I was merely responding to you implying " The energy vampire build is a must on the LoR "

 

I am against the current design of Energy Vampire, not because it offers energy. Trinity need it to heal her allies. But does she really have to give that amount to all allies as well?

I do not think she does, sure as a support frame she could offer energy to allies. But the current value she gives out is extremely high, this is noticed even more so if you use a EV build (High power strength, high range and low duration).

Yep, using the EV build it definitely gives out a lot of energy to allies, I see a lot of people requesting an EV trinity for Draco but honestly it's no fun just spamming energy vampire all the time. Even playing as a support frame it's good to get in some kills.

[SaurusRex]

So if people want LoS on prism, does that mean they also want it on Rhino's stomp, Frost's freeze, Banshee's soundquake, Ivara's sleep arrows, Nova's priming (kinda), and Vauban's bastille? Because that's what players will switch to for cheesing missions if you add LoS to Mirage's disco ball. It changes nothing. It's merely the most optimal of the various options, just as Draco is optimal for xp farming and Frost is optimal for defence and Carrier is the only option optimal for not scrabbling around in the dirt looking for pickups.

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

27 minutes ago, SaurusRex said:

So if people want LoS on prism, does that mean they also want it on Rhino's stomp, Frost's freeze, Banshee's soundquake, Ivara's sleep arrows, Nova's priming (kinda), and Vauban's bastille? Because that's what players will switch to for cheesing missions if you add LoS to Mirage's disco ball. It changes nothing. It's merely the most optimal of the various options, just as Draco is optimal for xp farming and Frost is optimal for defence and Carrier is the only option optimal for not scrabbling around in the dirt looking for pickups.

+1 to you! 

Totally agree though, if we add LoS to one frame than the whole nerf attitude will eventually lead to ruining all the other frames because people think Mirage's blind is "too OP". Nerfing frames to the oblivion just...the way I see it, it'll make the frame's abilties useless no matter how well they're modded. And I doubt anyone wants their favourite or well used frames to lose to be nerfed to the point that they're not as good as they are at their peak of power.

[Gurpgork]

3 hours ago, SaurusRex said:

So if people want LoS on prism, does that mean they also want it on Rhino's stomp, Frost's freeze, Banshee's soundquake, Ivara's sleep arrows, Nova's priming (kinda), and Vauban's bastille?

Thing is, some of those abilities already have limiting factors that prevent them from getting out of control. Banshee's Soundquake renders her immobile. Ivara's arrows have a short range, and their effect expires if a target loses 50% of its hitpoints. Vauban's Bastille has a target limit and a rather short range.

I mean, let's just talk about how much better Prism is than all of those abilities.

1. Stomp is probably the strongest one you listed, and Prism has the same range, longer duration, triggers the stealth attack multiplier for affected enemies, can be refreshed on enemies, and costs just a little more than half as much energy. Prism isn't just better than Stomp, it blows it out of the water. 
2. Avalanche has all the disadvantages over Prism that Stomp has, in addition to having a much shorter range. The advantage that Avalanche has is armor shred.
3. Soundquake renders Banshee completely immobile, has a shorter range, and does not allow attacks to benefit from the stealth attack multiplier. The only real advantage Soundquake has over Prism is its potential duration, which is trivialized by Prism since it can be refreshed.
4. Ivara's sleep arrows have a very, very small range, and the effect is lost if enemies are damaged too much while sleeping. It is also vastly less energy efficient than Prism; Spending 100 energy on sleep arrows is not going to cover anywhere near as wide of a range as Prism would. 
5. Molecular Prime is the only soft crowd control listed, which means that enemies affected by it can actually still fight back. Moreover, the wave takes time to expand. 
6. Vauban's Bastille is more expensive than Prism, has a much shorter range, a target limit, and the same duration. It also requires Vauban to consider Power Strength, since it influences Bastille's target limit. Bastille cannot accomplish anywhere near as much crowd control as Prism can in a single cast.

Some of those abilites are also most likely imbalanced, but none of them can really compete with Prism. 

3 hours ago, SaurusRex said:

Because that's what players will switch to for cheesing missions if you add LoS to Mirage's disco ball. 

I'm just waiting for the day when the majority of the playerbase stops cheesing missions and starts playing them. The sooner we can't 100% trivialize the game, the healthier the game as a whole is going to be in the long run.

2 hours ago, LittleArachnid said:

Nerfing frames to the oblivion just...the way I see it, it'll make the frame's abilties useless no matter how well they're modded.

This is a pretty common misconception about people asking for things to be nerfed. Nobody wants Prism to be useless. I certainly don't, and I don't think OP does either. But we also don't want it to outright remove several fundamental parts of a shooter, namely any semblance of challenge, or, more specifically, the enemies' ability to fight back. 

I don't think anybody really wants DE to nerf Mirage into uselessness. We just want to bring her into balance with the other Warframes, because her crowd control is an order of magnitude better than every other crowd control ability in the game and it makes it absolutely trivial. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Gurpgork

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

6 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

 

This is a pretty common misconception about people asking for things to be nerfed. Nobody wants Prism to be useless. I certainly don't, and I don't think OP does either. But we also don't want it to outright remove several fundamental parts of a shooter, namely any semblance of challenge, or, more specifically, the enemies' ability to fight back. 

I don't think anybody really wants DE to nerf Mirage into uselessness. We just want to bring her into balance with the other Warframes, because her crowd control is an order of magnitude better than every other crowd control ability in the game and it makes it absolutely trivial. 

Thing is, can you disprove that people won't cry for nerfs to Hysteria, Snow Globe, Radial Disarm (loki). I've seen threads crying "NERF HYSTERIA IT'S TOO OP" when honestly hysteria's a good 4th ability that makes her unique. But main point, if people cry over that what's to stop them crying over other warframe abilities?

[Gurpgork]

10 hours ago, LittleArachnid said:

But main point, if people cry over that what's to stop them crying over other warframe abilities?

For one thing, calling it "crying" is extremely dismissive of people making nerf threads. Most of them (not all of them, but most of them) formulate an argument as to why the nerf they are discussing should happen. This thread is certainly an example, as is the 40-page Tonkor thread in weapons feedback. Yes, some of them are "crying", but most of them are providing an explanation. Does formulating an argument make them right? Certainly not. But they're not "crying", they're posting their feedback on a forum designed for feedback in a mature manner. Their feedback doesn't matter any less than yours just because they're asking for nerfs.

10 hours ago, LittleArachnid said:

Thing is, can you disprove that people won't cry for nerfs to Hysteria, Snow Globe, Radial Disarm (loki).

Absolutely not. Nor am I trying to. I'm trying to say that people who do ask for nerfs for those abilities don't want them to be useless, they just want them to be less game breaking. 

 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Gurpgork