De Doesn't Get To Decide What An Ideal Clan Size Is.

[CosyPigeon]

And as such, they should stop designing the game around the numbers they want to see. Small clans are going to be groups of friends who know each other in real life, and it seems unfair that small clans should suffer just because DE thinks the ideal small clan size is 50 people. 

 

As much respect I have for DE, it frustrates me that rather than catering to the players who love and support this game, they are instead catering to an arbitrary design limitation that they found to be convenient for unexplained reasons. Numerous players on this forum have posted a host of workable ideas that would easily make dojo construction viable for both small clans and DE's wallets, yet in the latest live streams, DE has still said that they think clan sizes should adhere to their design parameters, rather than what's fun for the player. I'm going to repeat that with emphasis here: 

 

DESIGN PARAMETERS FOR A VIDEO GAME PLACED AHEAD OF WHAT IS FUN FOR PLAYERS.

 

This is counter intuitive, as a video game, the design parameters should cater to what is fun for players, not be at crossed purposes with them. As such, dojo construction should be just as viable small clan as defined by the player base, rather than the unrealistic definition of a 'small' clan as defined by DE.

Edited June 12, 2013 by CosyPigeon

[liavalenth]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/?hl=%2Bsmall+%2Bclan

"CLAN SIZE: We're currently thinking of these tiers: Shadow Clan (30 limit), River Clan (100 limit), Mountain Clan (500 limit), Moon Clan (2000 limit). Existing massive clans will likely grandfathered in but there may be upkeep friction for those really crazy sized ones. We will avoid forced splits though. Starting a clan will take some resources. Jumping between clans will be slow to reduce exploits. We need these limits to help bring sanity to database, networking and balance equations. Stay tuned, as we're still working out the details."

Edited June 12, 2013 by liavalenth

[MetalGerbil]

i always thought the game would be more fun with 4 and a half people missions.

this guy says i get to decide.

make it happen DE.

[ToeSama]

I agree in part.

If the players were able to define what a clan's lowest size is based on, the purpose of the clan dojo becomes a moot issue. The point was to give players a reason to join or make clans, to craft a home, build new weapons, and enjoy other clan related benefits that would be introduced with content in the future. If the player base defined a clan based on their own desired size, they could quite literally make a slew of one man clans who enjoy the benefits they chose for their own personal benefit with a fairly small amount of work. It would be no different than before the dojo was an item and people just played with the players on their friends list or in pub matches, only now they would be capable of accessing all the dojo has to offer as another personal benefit akin to mods, sentinels and alternate helmets. At that point, why even make the clan function in such a way?

This being said, yes, 50 is a stupid number to quantify a "small" clan by. My clan only has about 7 members, and we doubt we'd ever add anyone outside of our own circle of friends. 20 would be more of an acceptable number in our eyes, if not 15 or 10. At least we might be able to have a chance at getting our dojo somewhere.

EDIT: After viewing the link above, 30 seems a much more workable number, and when compared to a size such as 100, I expect a steep drop in construction prices for smaller clans. That said, I still think 20 would have been a better starting point for smaller clans.

Edited June 12, 2013 by ToeSama

[liavalenth]

EDIT: After viewing the link above, 30 seems a much more workable number, and when compared to a size such as 100, I expect a steep drop in construction prices for smaller clans. That said, I still think 20 would have been a better starting point for smaller clans.

They said 30 Maxmimum on the size of the smallest clans. Not that it is expected all small clans to have 30, just that 30 is the maximum a small clan can have. If 30 is max 13-18 will be considered average.

Edited June 12, 2013 by liavalenth

[VScipii26]

Normally I detest the devil's advocate in a conversation...but they really do.

However, they don't get to say it and then not enforce it. They've lowered their stance to 30 people, which my three-man clan discussed and believed it to be still too large. Why? Because it's likely that they'll be constantly promoting clan growth to larger clans. Unfortunately, clans in games are usually centered around what people are needed for the largest and most fun/rewarding missions. We have an up to 4-man co-op, not 50 man epic level raids. 

 

So currently they've decided their arbitrary number, and they need to back it up or back down. They backed down a bit, which is good. And we should start feeling it by the end of the month. Number reworking isn't terribly time consuming to do.

My only concern is that they'll see the average building capabilities of a clan at their highest nuber, not at the mid-point (making it still a nightmare for a micro-friendship-clan such as mine, but less so).

[Lumireaver]

My clan will probably never grow beyond my group of (four) real life friends.

 

If DE says they're designing the smallest clan tier around thirty member clans, I'm cool with that because it's DE's game and thirty members sounds pretty reasonable for a small group.

[Seanjuju]

DE defines what a clan is and its functionality. If DE, in their infinite wisdom, decides that a clan system isn't intended for a handful of people then its their choice. DE DOES decide the viable clan sizes because DE is the architect, have some respect. If you have another idea, then state it.  

[Gregio]

Four people aren't a clan.
They're a squad. Any good group of friends should have and search around for AT LEAST 3 squads. That's how much the clan I'm in has, 13-15 people.

The smallest clan size DE envisioned is 30 people. That doesn't stop your 4 people clan, it'll just make it harder for your group to gather materials.
If 4 people can build a full dojo in even 5 times the time a 1000 people clan can build it, the game's very unfair to those 1k people.

DE has said multiple times, the dojo was NOT meant to be a short time project, they never wanted people to have full dojos with all researches complete on week one. The dojo is a long term project for certain groups of people.

Now, my biggest advice would be to listen to DE.
Four people aren't a clan, they're a squad. I think Scott said that. You turned your 4 player squad into a clan just so you can access the dojo.
Take your four people squad, make a thread, talk about your clan and get 2 or 3 more squads to form an ACTUAL clan.

I mean, seriously, even like, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, the clan has like 20 people and they're one of the smallest clans in the Ivalice world.
4 people are a group of friends. 15 people are a crowd, 30 people are a group. 100 people are a battalion, 1k people is an army.

Btw, no, my clan hasn't maxed out all researches, in fact we kinda stopped building until DE fixes dojo costs towards Shadow clans (30 ppl) as they said they would, etc. Most of us are founders, but we don't like paying 15 forma for a simple building, so we're waiting. Be patient.

[LordofTibera]

My clan will probably never grow beyond my group of (four) real life friends.

 

If DE says they're designing the smallest clan tier around thirty member clans, I'm cool with that because it's DE's game and thirty members sounds pretty reasonable for a small group.

Im in a group of 3, but are you really okay with 30 clan members being considered "small"? To know that unless you ditch your friends and join a big clan youll probably never get to experience the new content the dojo adds? Im certainly not okay with it.

I never gave the clan thing much thought till U8. If they didnt include weapons in the dojo id say "good for the people in the clans. Now they have a place to hang out. I dig that." But now i feel that the clan thing is mandatory because theres something tangible to be gained from building a dojo. Its NOT just a place to hang out. I dislike that because i dont want to befriend 25 strangers online im denied access to content. Makes me feel like im being told how to play.

[ToeSama]

DE defines what a clan is and its functionality. If DE, in their infinite wisdom, decides that a clan system isn't intended for a handful of people then its their choice. DE DOES decide the viable clan sizes because DE is the architect, have some respect. If you have another idea, then state it.

To be fair, this might work if the game wasn't already hyped up as a console release for the next gen. It also might work if they have not asked for direct feedback from their player base on a near constant level. As these things are indeed true though, we have just about as much a say in the direction the game that we intend to pay money towards goes. "Free to play" doesn't always mean "will never spend any money towards it", and as I've already pumped about 80$ into the game, I think I'm more than entitled to my opinion on its design directions, as well as the expectation that my opinion and those of my peers will be listened to and weighed very heavily on the game's future. Especially so if DE even wants another dime out of their players.

Edited June 12, 2013 by ToeSama

[CosyPigeon]

DE defines what a clan is and its functionality. If DE, in their infinite wisdom, decides that a clan system isn't intended for a handful of people then its their choice. DE DOES decide the viable clan sizes because DE is the architect, have some respect. If you have another idea, then state it.  

 

Players define clan size because ultimately, players are the clans. DE can say "a clan needs 40 people" but unless the majority of players in the game start organising themselves into groups of 40, that's not gonna happen. Many players prefer to play with smaller groups of friends, even competitive and well known clans from other online action games are significantly smaller than the numbers DE wants. 

I'm not going to post ideas about solutions here because frankly, I don't need to, the community has already put forward dozens of ideas as to how clans can be made workable for smaller groups of players whilst maintaining DE's profits, and if you are too lazy to go look them up on the forums, that's your problem. 

 

[Zaik_Torek]

so bizarre, instead of being grateful that the resource requirements will be scaled to clan size, we're complaining that the maximum numbers to get the smallest clan size are too large.

 

what is this i don't even

 

aside from ferrite none of the current building requirements seemed that hard, and i'd imagine eventually there will be a higher level ferrite area to fix that as well. we just cancelled our first cross connector after hearing costs might be scaled down and i got back 45k spores and my two forma, think i've only been playing a week and a half or so.

[Seanjuju]

To be fair, this might work if the game wasn't already hyped up as a console release for the next gen. It also might work if they have not asked for direct feedback from their player base on a near constant level. As these things are indeed true though, we have just about as much a say in the direction the game that we intend to pay money towards goes. "Free to play" doesn't always mean "will never spend any money towards it", and as I've already pumped about 80$ into the game, I think I'm more than entitled to my opinion on its design directions, as well as the expectation that my opinion and those of my peers will be listened to and weighed very heavily on the game's future. Especially so if DE even wants another dime out of their players.

DE likes to hear player opinion and listens to player concerns. Players aren't entitled to simply conclude that DE doesn't decide the direction of a mechanic. Players can't ignore DE's opinion as they're the architects. Player opinions are incorporated into the design, they don't dictate the design.  

Players define clan size because ultimately, players are the clans. DE can say "a clan needs 40 people" but unless the majority of players in the game start organising themselves into groups of 40, that's not gonna happen. Many players prefer to play with smaller groups of friends, even competitive and well known clans from other online action games are significantly smaller than the numbers DE wants. 

I'm not going to post ideas about solutions here because frankly, I don't need to, the community has already put forward dozens of ideas as to how clans can be made workable for smaller groups of players whilst maintaining DE's profits, and if you are too lazy to go look them up on the forums, that's your problem. 

 

Players don't define a clan's size because players don't define what a clan is. If you don't intend to provide an idea or consolidate ideas then your thread isn't constructive. If you disagree with the direction of the game, then provide a concrete opinion as to what direction it should be heading. If you don't think DE's design is fun then what is? I disagree with your stance as DE intends to support a wide range of clan sizes. Squad=/=Clan

[Carcharias]

 Any good group of friends should have and search around for AT LEAST 3 squads. That's how much the clan I'm in has, 13-15 people.

DE has said multiple times, the dojo was NOT meant to be a short time project, they never wanted people to have full dojos with all researches complete on week one. The dojo is a long term project for certain groups of people.

 I think Scott said that. You turned your 4 player squad into a clan just so you can access the dojo.

Take your four people squad, make a thread, talk about your clan and get 2 or 3 more squads to form an ACTUAL clan.

1) Any time you presume to tell people what they "should" do you might want to add a data source. Right now it looks like "this is what I have so this is what everyone should have."

 

2) Even in a small clan I do not expect to build the dojo overnight, but I still think it should be do-able. By the current math, it will be well into next year before my clan even starts research rooms. And as my clan is well below thirty people I don't expect that to change a whole lot in the future.  :/

 

3) I don't care what Scott said. I respect the Devs as well but in this case I (respectfully) think they are delusional. Four players can play at once (period) . If this was Firefall (aka forever in beta) and there were open world scenarios and things you could go do in groups of 10, 20 and more then I totally wouldn't have a problem. But this game is NOT open world, only four (4) players can play together at a time. Even in games like WOW and RIFT the designers did say "sure you can make a guild but it has to have at least 30 people!" And in those to game you CAN play and do things with upwards of ten people at once all going for the same goal.

 

Where in the name of Zeus's buthole is this thought process coming from? What's the logic here? I can't see it. Weapons and there for advancement is tied to the dojo. So you're going to hold people back from the game because you think the clan is not "big enough"?!? It just doesn't make sense to me. You're probably gonna loose players that way. I am not the only one who enjoys playing either solo or with friends in vent to coordinate our efforts. I have no desire to play with randoms, cause I don't want to deal with randoms in my vent. Had enough of that on the two previously mentioned MMOs.

 

I honestly do not understand where this idea of a minimum clan size is coming from. Who cares if one person does it by him or herself? Granted it "should" probably take awhile, but I still think it should be do-able (less than 20 hours game play per room). Why are the Devs trying to FORCE people to be in a large group when you really can't do anything worthwhile in a large group. If you get your whole 40 member clan on at once and all go to the dojo and look into each others helmets really hard will  the magic of friendship kill off all the infested and cause a shift in the power balance of the known galaxy?

 

So one person makes a clan by him or herself to get the benefits. So what? This reason for having a minimum clan requirement is absurd. Why else would you be in a clan at all if not for the benefits? And of course to not play with trolls, but you can do that with just the contacts list if you want. Currently the only advantage I see to being in a large clan is having a working dojo. I do not see any reason other then that to join a large clan. Honestly I will move on to another game before I join a large clan. Try as you may, you're not gonna force me to join up with 29 other random people and you're sure as hell not gonna make me to join up with 499 random people.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Carcharias

[Zaik_Torek]

1) Any time you presume to tell people what they "should" do you might want to add a data source. Right now it looks like "this is what I have so this is what everyone should have."

 

2) Even in a small clan I do not expect to build the dojo overnight, but I still think it should be do-able. By the current math, it will be well into next year before my clan even starts research rooms. And as my clan is well below thirty people I don't expect that to change a whole lot in the future.  :/

 

3) I don't care what Scott said. I respect the Devs as well but in this case I (respectfully) think they are delusional. Four players can play at once (period) . If this was Firefall (aka forever in beta) and there were open world scenarios and things you could go do in groups of 10, 20 and more then I totally wouldn't have a problem. But this game is NOT open world, only four (4) players can play together at a time. Even in games like WOW and RIFT the designers did say "sure you can make a guild but it has to have at least 30 people!" And in those to game you CAN play and do things with upwards of ten people at once all going for the same goal.

 

Where in the name of Zeus's buthole is this thought process coming from? What's the logic here? I can't see it. Weapons and there for advancement is tied to the dojo. So you're going to hold people back from the game because you think the clan is not "big enough"?!? It just doesn't make sense to me. You're probably gonna loose players that way. I am not the only one who enjoys playing either solo or with friends in vent to coordinate our efforts. I have no desire to play with randoms, cause I don't want to deal with randoms in my vent. Had enough of that on the two previously mentioned MMOs.

 

I honestly do not understand where this idea of a minimum clan size is coming from. Who cares if one person does it by him or herself? Granted it should take awhile, but I still think it should be do-able. Why are the Devs try to FORCE people to be in a large group when you really can't do anything worthwhile in a large group. If you get your whole 40 member clan on at once and all go to the dojo and look into each others helmets really hard will  the magic of friendship kill off all the infested and cause a shift in the power balance of the known galaxy?

 

So one person makes a clan by him herself to get the benefits. This reason is absurd. Why else would you be in a clan at all if not for the benefits? And of course to not play with trolls, but you can do that with just the contacts list if you want. Currently the only advantage I see to being in a large clan is having a working dojo. I do not see any reason other then that to join a large clan. Honestly I will move on to another game before I join a large clan. Try as you may, you not gonna force me to join up with 29 other random people and you're sure as hell not gonna get me to join up with 499 random people.

its not a minimum size, its a maximum size.

 

as in, you can have up to 30 for small, then up to whatever for medium, then up to whatever for large, and so on.

[VScipii26]

It all depends on the resource scaling. Currently, it's horrible. It was designed for clans of 50ish people to finish over a long period of time, meaning it screws over anyone who doesn't want to join a group of faceless people from Iowa, and then promotes the creation of mega-clans with 1000+ people where nobody knows anyone other than random groups of two or three because of the manpower needed to obtain some weapons. And then half those people leave because they got the weapon.
They built a system of weapon grubbing when they were going for community organization.

The problem with trying to build community organization is that when you only need four people at any given time, you don't need 1000+ player to direct. Combo that with the worst chat system I've ever seen, and you get a clan of silent people throwing resources together out of mutual greed. As I said before, we currently have 4-man gameplay. Even if we get sub-ins for everyone plus a second leader, you run three squads at best. That's 12 people. 30 people is a great size, and I say it's still modest, but when you get into the 100s range and are calling it a "moderately sized" group of players, you are mistaken.

It boils down to this: We play in four man strike teams, not 40 man death squads. I certainly see why the DEs went with the numbers they did, but it's clear that they were either pushing too hard to be like other clans or didn't tell us that they have 25-man raid bosses taking place in the sun planned.

[CosyPigeon]

Players don't define a clan's size because players don't define what a clan is. If you don't intend to provide an idea or consolidate ideas then your thread isn't constructive. If you disagree with the direction of the game, then provide a concrete opinion as to what direction it should be heading. If you don't think DE's design is fun then what is? I disagree with your stance as DE intends to support a wide range of clan sizes. Squad=/=Clan

Players define clan size by clicking the create clan button and then inviting however many clan members they choose. That is the mechanic as it exists in the game currently. Players literally pick how big or small their clan is, this is indisputable. Solutions for smaller clans include things like resource scaling, and changing the forma cost from a group cost to an individual cost, ETC. These solutions are detailed in other threads, as I stated earlier, if you are too lazy to look them up, not my problem. I did not create this thread to discuss possible solutions, I created this thread to remind DE that dictating a specific clan size or Ideal is harmful to a significant number of their players.

 

Even though they addressed this issue in previous live streams, I was not satisfied with the manner in which it was addressed, as such, I'm here providing my feed back, you don't have to agree with me. Perhaps you joined broframe or some other enormous clan and things are peachy keen for you, that's great. For allot of players out there however, they would like to be able to form small tight nit clans between friends they know and play with frequently, and there is no real reason why that shouldn't be a viable option. 

I do not expect my small clan to gain access to all aspects of the dojo instantly, but I am sick of hearing DE say " your clan should be 50 members" and then after the backlash "ok your clan should be 30 members and that's as low as we're willing to cater for".

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

DE has the final word of this of course, but if they keep expecting people to keep playing who aren't clan-bangers, they need to find someway to scale the resource requirements down. (and I'm confident that they will do just that)

 

I'm not a social guy, I keep a seriously tight circle of friends IRL and I do the same ingame. If the devs should brainfart and decided to force a minimum of clan size 30 person clans, then we're giving up on the dojo completely. However, as our small "micro-clan"  is ridiculously hardcore, we could probably bear probably double the amount of what would be expected of a player to pull together with the drop rates today.

 

However, at this point, we have way too little information to go on to make a judgement about things, but after what I've seen so far, this dev team is aware of the micro clan issue and I would be very surprised if they messed this up.

[yiN_]

30 is already a big clan

200 or 1k player is not a clan anymore, just a crowd where people doesn't know each other.

[OriKlein]

As was already noted previously, DE are already tackling the issues with clan sizes. Your thread is redundant.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/?hl=%2Bsmall+%2Bclan

"CLAN SIZE: We're currently thinking of these tiers: Shadow Clan (30 limit), River Clan (100 limit), Mountain Clan (500 limit), Moon Clan (2000 limit). Existing massive clans will likely grandfathered in but there may be upkeep friction for those really crazy sized ones. We will avoid forced splits though. Starting a clan will take some resources. Jumping between clans will be slow to reduce exploits. We need these limits to help bring sanity to database, networking and balance equations. Stay tuned, as we're still working out the details."

Best Regards,

[ZWarhammer]

5-10 member clans don't make any sense to be honest why not just add squads or gangs for something as small as that ? would make more sense

Edited June 12, 2013 by ZWarhammer

[Dieson]

I get what you're saying but :

 

 " your clan should be 50 members" and then after the backlash "ok your clan should be 30 members and that's as low as we're willing to cater for".

 

Is not what they actually said in the latest post about clans that I could find, which is this one : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/ where DE_Steve wrote :

 

CLAN SIZE: We're currently thinking of these tiers: Shadow Clan (30 limit), River Clan (100 limit), Mountain Clan (500 limit), Moon Clan (2000 limit). Existing massive clans will likely grandfathered in but there may be upkeep friction for those really crazy sized ones. We will avoid forced splits though. Starting a clan will take some resources. Jumping between clans will be slow to reduce exploits. We need these limits to help bring sanity to database, networking and balance equations. Stay tuned, as we're still working out the details.

 

There is no mention of a minimum requirement here, only a limit of 30 for the smallest clans. Granted simply writing (30 limit) could, if generous, be interpretated as minimum number of members.

 

I seriously doubt that though, since in my experience the use of the word "limit" has always meant "this far / high / many, but no further"

Edited June 12, 2013 by Dieson

[AmmoRejected]

I think 30/100/500/2000 sizes are a little high, kind of, as the upper end of those numbers nobody really knows each other, it's just a join because it has everything kind of deal, depending on. 20/50/100/250/500 would feel right, maybe platinum-purchased size boosters. I can think of a myriad of ways to make it work for the little guys, and still be viable for the bigger clans. But I think they would find a decent amount of success in smaller numbers with upgrades for Platinum. After all, as a fan of the game, we still need to consider their funding as well; Every little bit counts. If they did that then they would definitely need a clan-based currency/resource storage, because one guy buying all that platinum for his clan would be ridiculous. But I could see scores of people dropping $4.99 for platinum to contribute to their clan without minding. (after all, it helps them all)

 

Overall I think they should consider some platinum-related options, as large clans have easily the players to manage platinum, and smaller clans wouldn't suffer for having too few. My thoughts are largely biased with ideas of the dojo building aspect being scaled (resources required) to clan size, with a scale minimum to prevent exploit... But that's just my thoughts, so yeah. I do think if they add more platinum options for clan size then they could remedy some other platinum-related cries for change without impacting much, and they can have smaller clan sizes as a base size for smaller groups of people.

 

Apologies if I may have wandered a little. When I get going, things rattle all over upstairs, lol.

[ToeSama]

DE likes to hear player opinion and listens to player concerns. Players aren't entitled to simply conclude that DE doesn't decide the direction of a mechanic. Players can't ignore DE's opinion as they're the architects. Player opinions are incorporated into the design, they don't dictate the design.

Past examples have proven otherwise. From shotguns to Iron Skin and now even Radial Blast has been changed due to player decree for an improvement to the skill.

If you're making a F2P, asking for players to spend money on an in game currency in order to support the development team in their efforts towards improving the game for the players, they should be smart enough to recognize that the players are the ones who hold the reigns. This is in ALL aspects of the game. if most of the players say X is to big of a problem, you're most assuredly going to see X change.

So, yes, players DO dictate what direction the game goes. There are plenty of aspects about the game that the players don't demand a change on. It's when players demand change on a almost universal scale that change happens. The clan size alteration from 50 to 30 is proof of this, and even with that many people are still far and by unsatisfied with 30 when they know their clans would never even reach such a capacity.

so bizarre, instead of being grateful that the resource requirements will be scaled to clan size, we're complaining that the maximum numbers to get the smallest clan size are too large.

You are aware that these two things are not separate issues from one another, right? 10-20 man or fewer clans that have no interest in expanding their rank size should be considered in this price adjustment just as much as the 30 and 50 member groups. Some of us super small clans who have work schedules and families to care for would like to have our dojo's built before christmas if it isn't too much trouble...