De Doesn't Get To Decide What An Ideal Clan Size Is.

[Zekarus]

30 is already a big clan

200 or 1k player is not a clan anymore, just a crowd where people doesn't know each other.

I'm going to add a wee bit more to this, and I probably am going to sound a wee bit elitist.

My "clan" has been around since 2005. We have been a steady gaming group for 8-ish years. It started from a bunch of random people meeting in Eve Online, to becoming a steady gaming group that expanded by inviting in close friends.

There are massive zerg guilds in most other games. Barring a few exceptions, they gather, then they scatter once they are bored of the game. We have existed before them, and we will continue to exist long after their fad has passed.

Throughout the almost 10 years of our existence, we our number averaged at around 15 players, and peaked at 20. Even with everybody accounted for, we do not exceed 25.

There are many, many small groups like us who are composed of close friends and have been around for many, many years, and will outlast even an MMO's lifespan.

DE doesn't think groups like us aren't worth thinking about? DE doesn't think our way of playing fits in with their vision?

Editing in because phone eats texts: Because that's exactly what it sounds like when they imposed the $&*&*#(%&ly-high requirements.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Zekarus

[Dieson]

Perhaps it would be a good idea at this time to point out on DEs part that they did say/warn that the dojo and the things related to building one were at the time of release in Alpha stage and that Warframe in general is still in Beta even if it is Open Beta. so all this "rage" at DE for "imposed $&*&*#(%&ly-high requirements." are, and yes this is just my oppinion, somewhat premature and unjustified.

 

Right now this thread feels a bit like this: http://pinterest.com/pin/205547170463841250/

 

Were they to simply leave things as is and slap a "working as intended" stamp on it, then it would be an entirely different matter and concerning myself, i'd probably be in here supporting your views instead.

[ToeSama]

Perhaps it would be a good idea at this time to point out on DEs part that they did say/warn that the dojo and the things related to building one were at the time of release in Alpha stage and that Warframe in general is still in Beta even if it is Open Beta. so all this "rage" at DE for "imposed $&*&*#(%&ly-high requirements." are, and yes this is just my oppinion, somewhat premature and unjustified.

Right now this thread feels a bit like this: http://pinterest.com/pin/205547170463841250/

Were they to simply leave things as is and slap a "working as intended" stamp on it, then it would be an entirely different matter and concerning myself, i'd probably be in here supporting your views instead.

I don't think that this is the whole of the community though. Most of the rage is directed towards other board members who just want to come in and say "suck it up and play" without offering anything even remotely constructive to the topic. We get that DE should have a say in their game, and ultimately they do, but that is no reason for any one of us to have to not offer our views and opinions on it. Why have an official board if we're going to be made to not speak any ill words what so ever.

The maturity of a poster is not a mark of a lack of a problem. We're well aware it's in alpha. Some people just choose to express their views on the subject like children, which causes other people to refute their views like children. They are two separate problems.

[Dieson]

Oh I agree entirely, people should most definitly voice their opinions, be they positive or negative. I was merely trying to point out that doing it in a composed manner is so much more constructive. I apologize if I failed to make that clear in my previous post.

[Tetsmeha]

The problem with catering to clan sizes is that if they make content too accessible to small clans big clans get screwed. Since U8 launch it was obvious it catered to large clans who could farm resources and build within hours. The idea of the clan building was to hold back on the new weapons because DE didn't want them to access it within a few days. But it obviously didn't work, and I feel a rework in how the clan weapons is required because there is no equal compromise in balancing the content gain based on clan numbers.

[Fleischkloppa]

30 is already a big clan

200 or 1k player is not a clan anymore, just a crowd where people doesn't know each other.

 

So much this.Also, imposing any kind of coherent structure on a "clan" with thousands of members is impossible; You can make rules, but you can never ever enforce them.

 

 

Having such huge clans is ridicoulous; It is even stupid to have that much people in games where there are 128 people on the battlefield(Counting both treams)like Battlefield, it is just plain idiotic in a game that is bascially 4 player coop.

[Mbgunsling]

And as such, they should stop designing the game around the numbers they want to see.

you clearly know more about game development than DE, lets listen to your, and your tiny clan's ideas.

[liavalenth]

So much this.Also, imposing any kind of coherent structure on a "clan" with thousands of members is impossible; You can make rules, but you can never ever enforce them.

Yes, that is why in the real world, there are no organizations with thousands of members. Because regulating any organization with thousands of members is impossible.

Seriously, just because your clan is small does not mean that a small clan is the only option. Trying to impose your idea of a clan as the only option is as bad as DE doing it.

In any case;

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/?hl=%2Bsmall+%2Bclan

"CLAN SIZE: We're currently thinking of these tiers: Shadow Clan (30 limit), River Clan (100 limit), Mountain Clan (500 limit), Moon Clan (2000 limit). Existing massive clans will likely grandfathered in but there may be upkeep friction for those really crazy sized ones. We will avoid forced splits though. Starting a clan will take some resources. Jumping between clans will be slow to reduce exploits. We need these limits to help bring sanity to database, networking and balance equations. Stay tuned, as we're still working out the details."

As I said before, back on page one, they plan to accommodate small clans. A clan with a limit of 30 means they expect the clan to be between 2-30. They will likely plan on clans of 13-18 being the average size of Shadow Clans as that makes the most sense. Very seldom will you find clans who buy the lowest tier and hit capacity, as that if they do they will need to buy the next tier. Any clan with 27+ members will most likely be a River Clan with a max of 100 members.

[Lumireaver]

Im in a group of 3, but are you really okay with 30 clan members being considered "small"? To know that unless you ditch your friends and join a big clan youll probably never get to experience the new content the dojo adds? Im certainly not okay with it.

I never gave the clan thing much thought till U8. If they didnt include weapons in the dojo id say "good for the people in the clans. Now they have a place to hang out. I dig that." But now i feel that the clan thing is mandatory because theres something tangible to be gained from building a dojo. Its NOT just a place to hang out. I dislike that because i dont want to befriend 25 strangers online im denied access to content. Makes me feel like im being told how to play.

 

Thirty is only ten times more than three. It'll only take you ten times longer. That's significantly faster than never.

[matrixEXO]

For all people here to know, it's the maximum size of the clan, not average. Also, Steve changed his post on the maximum member size for Shadow clan with it initially being 50 then scaled down to 30.

 

Given that the maximum is 30, I would say that it would be relatively a decent number for clans of 4~10 to tackle resource pooling since it IS meant to be a part of a long-term goal but not at the current insane point of resource pooling we have right now. I would also say that IF DE decides to build the resource strains around the limit size, it would spell trouble for clans of half or smaller size than the described numbers.

 

For now, we are speculating and do not know any raw numbers. I would like to see some raw numbers before the official release so some of us Mathematicians can actually do the calculation and give them our feedback.

 

Lastly, for those thinking about 30 as too big for a small clan, 4 is more of a "Personal" clan and isn't really a clan but a gathering of best friends. But they still allowed you all to build a clan so just be happy.

Edited June 12, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Fleischkloppa]

Yes, that is why in the real world, there are no organizations with thousands of members. Because regulating any organization with thousands of members is impossible.

Seriously, just because your clan is small does not mean that a small clan is the only option. Trying to impose your idea of a clan as the only option is as bad as DE doing it.

 

 

 

Ah, yes, it makes a lot of sense to compare real world structures where , to make such organisation possible, several people work hard everyday from 9 to 5 and are earning a wage(!) to an online game where probably a third of the people in the clan haven´t even reached adulthood, the people who´d have enough knowledge and authority to impose similar structures have no time or even the want to do so and those who have the time to play long enough each day are either imbeciles or losers or both.

 

Also, such organisation can only work if both sides, the authority and the ones beeing organised are actually working towards it - which is impossible because this is just a game and I would like to see you get 3000 organised, mature people together to form a coherent group of players in a 4 player coop game - this is just ridicoulus.

 

 

Also, Iam not imposing my idea of a clan on anybody - I dont care if you have 10000 or 20000 people in your "clan", what Iam saying is that I would personally not acknowledge it as a clan AND that it is impossible to get any kind of order into this mess of players.

 

I just can´t really get over the fact that somebody thought it to be a good idea to make the limit for clans several thousand players in a game where there can´t be more than 4 players in one mission together at all times.That could be called a people or a faction, but a clan is a tightly bonded group of players playing together where you KNOW each other, not a faceless mass that happens to use the same space station as base of operations.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Fleischkloppa

[liavalenth]

...to an online game where probably a third of the people in the clan haven´t even reached adulthood, the people who´d have enough knowledge and authority to impose similar structures have no time or even the want to do so and those who have the time to play long enough each day are either imbeciles or losers or both...

...it is impossible to get any kind of order into this mess of players...

Assumptions and insults

Also, Iam not imposing my idea of a clan on anybody ... in your "clan"...

And quoting the word clan when speaking of a clan larger than a thousand members.

...what Iam saying is that I would personally not acknowledge it as a clan ...

Then addmiting you would not consider it a clan, and thus do not believe it should be considered when making the game. Ya you're not judging others based on your idea of what a clan or game player is. I yield this one.

Edited June 12, 2013 by liavalenth

[Gregio]

So many people saying "Clans with over 100 people aren't even clans anymore!".

Do you know what a clan is?
"A clan is a group of people united by actual or perceived kinship or descent."

So, basically, family. Do you  know everyone in your family? Everyone? I don't know more than a third of my family.
In gaming, there are no bloodlines, so clans are groups of people that gather due to similar ideas. You advertise your clan saying:
"Hey, we're recruiting for clan X
We like to do Y and Z, we do not approve of A, B, C and D or any such behavior.
If you agree with our ideas, join our clan."

So, in a gaming sense, a clan is simply a bunch  of people with similar playstyles.
Of course, there are many people just randomly joining clans to get weapons and such and so on, but do not corrupt the idea of what clans are with your limited view of "MY GROUP OF 4 FRIENDS IS WHAT ANY REAL CLAN IS!" "ANY MORE THAN THAT AND IT'S JUST PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER."

I won't say your 4 people clan ISN'T a clan. You're a game squad with similar ideals who formed a clan.
What I will tell you, is not to expect the game to change their view on clans to match yours.

The CURRENT dojo status are ridiculous, but it's been said what they're working with, and the smallest clan size will be of UP TO 30 members. No more.

So anything from a 1man clan to 30 people is a Shadow Clan.
Now, if you're gonna argue that your 4 man clan should have lower costs than the up to 30 people clan, then I will just stop discussing because clearly, whoever argues that has serious self-centered points of view where only they are right.

A clan of 10 people will have good progress on a dojo, similar to the same Shadow Clan with it's full 30 people. There are many factors, how long each player plays for, what do they do, do they farm resources or what? At the minimum, a 10 people clan will gather stuff in 3x the time a 30 people clan would.

[fatpig84]

I fully expect 40 men raids in the future lol.

[YummyBubbles]

......really guys........really? honestly a 30 man clan isn't that ridiculously big, especially when you consider a game that if it plays cross-platform with the ps4 has a high chance of easily recuiting millions of new players coming this august. So, question, even if you have say.....10 people, JUST 10 people in your clan, is a 30 cap going to matter? honestly I think one of the biggest reasons they're doing this is to scale down resource costs for building the dojo. As it is, within a week me and one other person almost had all the stuff required for a 4-way connector.....not exactly an accomplishment, but still. Dojo's are long term projects that aren't expected to be completed in a week, and if me and ONE OTHER PERSON can gather all the materials to build a 4 way connecter in a week, playing part time. Then in a month a 10 person clan should have at LEAST a connecter and a reactor built as it is now, and once they introduce tiered resource need, and small clans get a drastic cut in the cost to build stuff in the dojo, it's going to be all that much easier. and if you wanna stay small. stay small ^_^. If you wanna recruit more people, you add a simple room to the dojo and BAM!! suddenly you can add more people. It's really not that big of a deal guys, and honestly, in most every other MMO I've ever played, the average clan size was around 80-200.......It's not hard to recruit new people and if you spend a little time with them they'll grow into amazing members of your clan. Remember that.

[Seanjuju]

Past examples have proven otherwise. From shotguns to Iron Skin and now even Radial Blast has been changed due to player decree for an improvement to the skill.

If you're making a F2P, asking for players to spend money on an in game currency in order to support the development team in their efforts towards improving the game for the players, they should be smart enough to recognize that the players are the ones who hold the reigns. This is in ALL aspects of the game. if most of the players say X is to big of a problem, you're most assuredly going to see X change.

So, yes, players DO dictate what direction the game goes. There are plenty of aspects about the game that the players don't demand a change on. It's when players demand change on a almost universal scale that change happens. The clan size alteration from 50 to 30 is proof of this, and even with that many people are still far and by unsatisfied with 30 when they know their clans would never even reach such a capacity.

 

Absolutely not. When players invest, its in DE's vision, not their own. The idea that players could dictate every aspect of the game is laughable. Players opinion weighs heavily on DE decisions but its naïve to honestly believe that players can circumvent the opinion of the architect altogether. Saying X is a problem then seeing a change proves nothing because ultimately the change won't lead to a completely new direction in the original design. Dictating the design means players forced their own designs upon the game, this has never happened and likely never will. The 50 to 30 change is proof that DE listens to players but doesn't completely redesign a system on a whim

 

 

Players define clan size by clicking the create clan button and then inviting however many clan members they choose. That is the mechanic as it exists in the game currently. Players literally pick how big or small their clan is, this is indisputable. Solutions for smaller clans include things like resource scaling, and changing the forma cost from a group cost to an individual cost, ETC. These solutions are detailed in other threads, as I stated earlier, if you are too lazy to look them up, not my problem. I did not create this thread to discuss possible solutions, I created this thread to remind DE that dictating a specific clan size or Ideal is harmful to a significant number of their players.

 

Even though they addressed this issue in previous live streams, I was not satisfied with the manner in which it was addressed, as such, I'm here providing my feed back, you don't have to agree with me. Perhaps you joined broframe or some other enormous clan and things are peachy keen for you, that's great. For allot of players out there however, they would like to be able to form small tight nit clans between friends they know and play with frequently, and there is no real reason why that shouldn't be a viable option. 

I do not expect my small clan to gain access to all aspects of the dojo instantly, but I am sick of hearing DE say " your clan should be 50 members" and then after the backlash "ok your clan should be 30 members and that's as low as we're willing to cater for".

 

It was my belief that we were discussing viable clan size, players don't define that; nor do they define what the functionality of a clan is. Personally a miniscule clan of a less than a handful of people isn't very compelling. I don't understand the significance of your argument. I disagree with your concept of fun. I don't think your view represents a significant minority.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Seanjuju

[ToeSama]

Absolutely not. When players invest, its in DE's vision, not their own. The idea that players could dictate every aspect of the game is laughable. Players opinion weighs heavily on DE decisions but its naïve to honestly believe that players can circumvent the opinion of the architect altogether. Saying X is a problem then seeing a change proves nothing because ultimately the change won't lead to a completely new direction in the original design. Dictating the design means players forced their own designs upon the game, this has never happened and likely never will. The 50 to 30 change is proof that DE listens to players but doesn't completely redesign a system on a whim

The system is being redesigned though. There wasn't even a clan limit to begin with, and now they're making changes to how the dojo works based on it. You're point in that DE has ultimate control over the game may bear truth, but it's also mired in limitations from the player base. I don't know what it is you're investing in for the game, if anything, but I most assuredly did not throw over 80$ towards DE's free to play game to support their vision. I did it to support MY vision of THEIR game by getting on the design council and making active changes towards the game's content and future. Like any good democracy, it's not only my voice that has an opinion, but when enough of us speak for the same thing, you better be sure that they'll listen. Especially if they want to keep us invested in the game.

Does DE have ultimate design control? Yes. Is it wise for them to ignore the changes their players call for? No. In fact it'd be stupid to do so after charging real money in the market and asking for ideas on what direction the game should go. At that point, even with the ball always in DE's court, it's the players who allow them any chance to score or not. Anger your players bad enough and they'll not even think twice about dropping the game.

Edited June 13, 2013 by ToeSama

[Carcharias]

I just hope there's gonna be some sort of cost to build scaling based on numbers so that the groups at the bottom end of any of these tiers don't get screwed like small clans currently are.

[CosyPigeon]

I get what you're saying but :

 

 

Is not what they actually said in the latest post about clans that I could find, which is this one : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/ where DE_Steve wrote :

 

CLAN SIZE: We're currently thinking of these tiers: Shadow Clan (30 limit), River Clan (100 limit), Mountain Clan (500 limit), Moon Clan (2000 limit). Existing massive clans will likely grandfathered in but there may be upkeep friction for those really crazy sized ones. We will avoid forced splits though. Starting a clan will take some resources. Jumping between clans will be slow to reduce exploits. We need these limits to help bring sanity to database, networking and balance equations. Stay tuned, as we're still working out the details.

 

There is no mention of a minimum requirement here, only a limit of 30 for the smallest clans. Granted simply writing (30 limit) could, if generous, be interpretated as minimum number of members.

 

I seriously doubt that though, since in my experience the use of the word "limit" has always meant "this far / high / many, but no further"

Their smallest catered to clan size is enormous. There are very few clans with more than 20 people who know each other in most games, and even less with more than 30.

[CosyPigeon]

It was my belief that we were discussing viable clan size, players don't define that; nor do they define what the functionality of a clan is. Personally a miniscule clan of a less than a handful of people isn't very compelling. I don't understand the significance of your argument. I disagree with your concept of fun. I don't think your view represents a significant minority.

A small clan is compelling if you have a close group friends that you play with frequently. If you think small groups of friends who enjoy playing this game together represent a significant minority, then I speculate that you simply have a dismal social life and a cynical outlook on the people who play games. You may not agree with my concept of fun, but I can assure you that many people do. And if my concept of fun is catered to it will have zero impact on you or how you play the game, so I fail to see why you are so opposed to me and my friends and other groups like us having fun.

If you want to be part of a clan consisting of a a large amount of faceless individuals who don't know each other and have little to no interest in their clan's identity because they signed up just to get quick and easy access to the benefits of a complete dojo, that option is already available to you, so I don't see why you are so opposed to other options being available to other smaller groups of players who want their clans to actually mean something.