Give Longswords A Chance.

[Nagisawa]

Sure... If its a laser sword and your targets are made of paper and wet clay.

Human bodies have these things called "bones" that tend to take multiple swings to break through with a sword, and that is if they aren't armored! Its VERY unlikely for someone to be able to cut through multiple people with one swing of a sword, even if they somehow manage a perfectly clean cut on the first person. Fiction tends to ignore that because realistic sword fighting is kind of boring to watch.

-------------

Anyway, the only single swords worth using right now are the only two that are centered around charge damage, the Plasma Sword and the Dark Sword, both of which have very high melee DPS with charge damage. The other swords seem to be built around normal attacks, which are for the most part underpowered right now.

Um, you do know that Warframes are POWERED ARMOUR, right?  Increasing your speed, strength and stamina and all that?

 

And I would also prefer is all melee weapons hit multiple targets please.

[Grilleds]

Um, you do know that Warframes are POWERED ARMOUR, right?  Increasing your speed, strength and stamina and all that?

 

And I would also prefer is all melee weapons hit multiple targets please.

and most enemies in the game are wearing heavy armor... If we are bringing reality into this discussion, then regardless of what sort of powered armor the Warframes are wearing they shouldn't be able to slice through multiple armored targets with a wimpy little longsword unless its a vibro-weapon or something like that. It makes sense for the Scindo because its sheer mass would let it break through multiple bodies, but for a long sword? No.

I don't think this game should strive for realism (because realism is boring and hard to balance). But I also don't think people in this community should be saying "____ in real life does this" when it doesn't.

---

Also making longswords multihit wouldn't make them balanced, it would just make them less effective versions of weapons that are currently multihit. The problem is that most longswords are balanced to have a higher DPS with normal attacks (Heat Sword is a good example), but normal attacks are weak and the mods that buff them are even weaker. Pressure Point is right now, one of the most useless mods in the game.

[Ryjeon]

and most enemies in the game are wearing heavy armor... If we are bringing reality into this discussion, then regardless of what sort of powered armor the Warframes are wearing they shouldn't be able to slice through multiple armored targets with a wimpy little longsword unless its a vibro-weapon or something like that. It makes sense for the Scindo because its sheer mass would let it break through multiple bodies, but for a long sword? No.

I don't think this game should strive for realism (because realism is boring and hard to balance). But I also don't think people in this community should be saying "____ in real life does this" when it doesn't.

---

Also making longswords multihit wouldn't make them balanced, it would just make them less effective versions of weapons that are currently multihit. The problem is that most longswords are balanced to have a higher DPS with normal attacks (Heat Sword is a good example), but normal attacks are weak and the mods that buff them are even weaker. Pressure Point is right now, one of the most useless mods in the game.

As long as the animation of the blade makes contact with the enemy it should have an effect. Or they should change the animations. As it is now it seems like the sword becomes a hologram after hitting the first enemy. I've suggested damage drop-off on secondary targets to account for the loss of force contact with the first enemy should bring.

 

Also need I remind you this is a NINJA FANTASY game, allowing players to live out a FANTASY of being a NINJA.  And fantasy ninjas can slice through anything with a focused blade. Have you never watched a fantasy ninja anime?

 

The purpose of allowing longswords to multi-hit isn't to make them aoe weapons. The purpose is to make them more effective and responsive for dealing with multiple enemies. Multi-hit with damage-drop-off would allow the blades to stagger, and apply DoTs and elemental CC to multiple enemies. The keyword we're looking for is versatility.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Ryjeon

[Xoxile]

The problem I have with just slapping hit multiple targets on long swords is then you have three out of four melee weapon groups (not including the thrown) that are able to hit multiple targets. So then people will want daggers to be just as viable so let's slap that on them too. Now you have little room for diversity. I'd rather see something more unique that sets them apart from the others.

[FatRefrigerator]

I hate to promote my own stuff on someone else's thread (that's a lie I love self-promotion), but I may have the solution to the melee issue:

 

Melee fighting techniques!: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/63474-fighting-styles/

Edited June 13, 2013 by FatRefrigerator

[Ryjeon]

The problem I have with just slapping hit multiple targets on long swords is then you have three out of four melee weapon groups (not including the thrown) that are able to hit multiple targets. So then people will want daggers to be just as viable so let's slap that on them too. Now you have little room for diversity. I'd rather see something more unique that sets them apart from the others.

 

The thing is at this moment there are weapons with GREAT aoe damage and utility, and a bunch of weapons with NO aoe damage or utility. There just isn't a middle ground aoe category of weapons. You go from no-star to 4-5 star. Giving longswords multi-hit with damage falloff would allow them to occupy that middle ground. Even if they did do full damage they wouldn't be on par aoe-wise with the wider area effect weapons. Their ability to affect multiple targets would be highly dependant on skillful maneuvering and positioning due to their naturally smaller hitboxes.

 

As the iconic weapon of the Tenno the longsword should be the dependable jack-off-all trades master of none weapon, but deadly in the hands of a skillful Tenno that can utilize it's strengths and overcome it's weaknesses.

[Grilleds]

As long as the animation of the blade makes contact with the enemy it should have an effect. Or they should change the animations. As it is now it seems like the sword becomes a hologram after hitting the first enemy. I've suggested damage drop-off on secondary targets to account for the loss of force contact with the first enemy should bring.

 

Also need I remind you this is a NINJA FANTASY game, allowing players to live out a FANTASY of being a NINJA.  And fantasy ninjas can slice through anything with a focused blade. Have you never watched a fantasy ninja anime?

 

The purpose of allowing longswords to multi-hit isn't to make them aoe weapons. The purpose is to make them more effective and responsive for dealing with multiple enemies. Multi-hit with damage-drop-off would allow the blades to stagger, and apply DoTs and elemental CC to multiple enemies. The keyword we're looking for is versatility.

Usually said ninja anime tends to involve either ninja's with magic blades (Ninja Scrolls anime) or ninja's with impractically sized swords (Zabuza from Naruto), or both (Most swords from Bleach, Inuyasha's sword, etc).

---

Longswords weren't meant to deal with multiple enemies though. Fixing them by giving them AoE would be like buffing the MK1 Braton by giving it shotgun spread. My post on the first page (last post on that page) details probably the best way to fix longswords. Long story short, they are normal attacking weapons (Dark Sword and Plasma Sword are the exceptions), and the mods that improve normal attacks are extremely underpowered right now, in addiction to normal attacks generally doing very little damage to begin with.

[BPoole]

DE should just buff te base damage on them all. There is no reason to use a long sword over dual swords or a large sword with maxed Fury since since you can't hit more than one enemy

[Grilleds]

DE should just buff te base damage on them all. There is no reason to use a long sword over dual swords or a large sword with maxed Fury since since you can't hit more than one enemy

That would fix them among new players, but it wouldn't fix high level play. The only way to make them viable in the endgame is to do what you said, and to also buff the Pressure Point mod considerably.

[Myheadhurtsalot]

What about raising the base damage and base critical hit chance so you could go from enemy to enemy faster. Or maybe instead of a manual block system add in a more passive parry chance that would give a % to either dodge all or some damage.

[X3Evanescence]

Instead of adding another pointless mod...

 

Buff them the right way...

 

You use melee for infested...I don't want to rely on chance with Chargers...

 

*6 Chargers rush at you*

 

*Swings Longsword*

 

*does 12 damage to Charger*

 

*BAM BAM BAM you are dead*

[InFlames]

I love to see this many opinions , lets keep this open and alive so DE sees it and maybe helps us out in some way, they can even use one of these ideas over here! ^^

 

There is a lot of possible solutions in here some very good and all but i can't tell if they would become too OP in comparison to Dual and Heavy melee swords. But still keep debating and adding more ideas folks!

[DiabolusUrsus]

I'm still on the "allow melee to hit multiple targets" boat.

Yes, Pressure Point underperforms for its mod cost at the moment. Rebalance it.

True, in reality it is very difficult to cut through multiple opponents. However, that's also assuming you cut THROUGH them, as in, bisect them entirely. Slashing someone across the gut to disembowel them requires a heck of a lot less effort than cutting them in half. It's not that far of a stretch to show slashing multiple people standing relatively parallel to each other across the gut as a posibility. And then we get back to the whole fantasy universe thing, and I say "screw physics, show me something fun.

 

Instead of simply buffing base damage, rebalance melee weapon range, damage, swing speed, crit chance, etc. to better differentiate niche roles... daggers with high attack speed and crit chance. Longswords with relatively high attack speed and respectable damage. Dual swords with less range and damage than longswords, but slightly higher attack speed and a wider circumference of damage output. (i.e. Dual swords cover a wider area around the player, rather than reaching further over a narrower area.) Heavy weapons with high damage and high stagger, but low swing speed.

 

The problem here isn't simply potential damage output. It's also the concept of weapon viability stemming from crowd management capabilities as a result of being able to hit multiple targets. The best solution is to equalize the potential for versatility, and ensure that a loss in one stat is compensated for by a significant gain in another. This will allow players to differentiate weapon choice based on personal playstyle preference, rather than indisputable statistical superiority.

But wait! What about daggers? Surely they would be left out by focusing on the potential for damaging multiple enemies at once! Well... no. Dual daggers can already hit multiple enemies at once in spite of their short reach, so it'd be a simple matter of adding that characteristic to their single counterparts. But with the increased significance of weapon reach it would make sense that daggers would be left out in the rain somewhat. So give them a guaranteed kill on backstab. Greatly rewards stealth gameplay, on the penalty of being lacking in melee output in the event of detection.

[CaveCricket48]

Higher Crit and Crit chance. Longsword problem solved.

[Xievie]

+1 I support.

 

I want to get back into using the Skana. I think it's a nice looking weapon, and it sucks to have such a good looking weapon wasted on such disgraceful stats.

 

If we were to buff the stats, the first thing that comes to mind is an increase in crit and crit damage. Using a weapon like that, you're probably gonna be hitting vital parts of a body for critical effects in battle.

[XRacKS]

easy solution:

give them a single target dmg buff (uncharged and charged)

The gauntlets aswell please i love the execution move xD

[krisp]

Just make longswords hit multiple targets.

 

Then again, everyone would just use the Dark Sword if that were true.

[Grilleds]

I don't understand why people think making longswords hit multiple targets will make them as good as other melee weapons. The problem with longswords is their stats and mods, not their function. If we let them hit multiple targets, then all they are is weakened versions of the heavy weapons. They would still royally suck, apart from the Dark Sword and the Plasma Sword, which are charge attack weapons.

The only way we could fix the longswords is to fix the normal attack mods and maybe buff the base damage and crit rate for them. As it stands now, the only longswords worth using are Dark Sword and the Plasma Sword, which btw would completely overshadow the heavy weapons if they could hit multiple targets.

Making longswords hit multiple targets would just cause even more balance concerns. Its a bad idea in general. Like I said before, its pretty much like balancing the MK1 Braton by giving it a shotgun spread with each shot. If longswords could hit multiple targets, then everyone would just use the Dark Sword and the Plasma Sword and weapons like the Cronus and Heat Sword would still be near bottom tier because they would just be weakened versions of heavy weapons. Want to fix them? Don't change they way they function, change how effectively they function.

[AndiNaga]

i agree that blocking with a long sword should give a greater bonus to defense, more so than other melee weapons,
that alone i think would grant it greater flexability in combat and as a weapon in general,

[PulseNeon]

I see a lot of opinions and I agree with most of them. Especially Grilleds' recommendations, coupled with a large buff to crit chance would help a lot to make Longswords stand out.

I've compiled a Spreadsheet of Damage Calculations per SINGLE HIT of a weapon, bullet or Melee, the only exception are shotguns. So for Daggers you have to keep in mind it hits 3 times.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AizAfRw8l1lmdHpMVWxWMjI4VldGdUJ3MFhraFBMRmc&usp=sharing

 

The BOLD numbers are the total damage of a single bullet or strike of an enemy, the rest of the numbers aside from the orange fields is just to show you which values are being added up and to show what effect which Elemental Damage mod has on weapons and enemies.

You should be able to take a copy and modify the relevant orange fields, So you can fill in your own mod levels and weapons, however: Don't put an Armor Ignore weapon in a row where Armor Ignore has been stated and vice versa.
Most of damage  is autocalculated from base damage while using the warframe.wikia.com's listed enemy vulnerabilities.

As enemies get higher in level, their resistances get higher to both Normal Damage and Elemental Damage. By level 50-60, the only worthwhile damage is Armor Piercing, and you can buff that with Pressure Point. This just shows that Armor Ignore rules across the board and most of the game lives at level 20-40 simply because it's more enjoyable. 

I've been playing this game since October, when you could still slot Melee damage buff mods on your frame, but that didn't really fix the issue of heavy, dual and normal weapons, and especially when you come to Armor Ignore.

The reality is that the melee weapons are about equal to 1 or 2 bullet hits on normal, and that charge makes them equivalent to a shotgun blast. The last is fine, but normal damage needs to be -way- higher on single hit/longsword attacks.

I've been campaigning for the buffing of Melee weapons for a long time, especially to make them a better Risk vs Reward system compared to guns, which right now they are not. Add your own comments here or to the spreadsheet, feel free to leave me messages in the forum pm or at natuurmens@gmail.com

[Ryjeon]

I don't understand why people think making longswords hit multiple targets will make them as good as other melee weapons. The problem with longswords is their stats and mods, not their function. If we let them hit multiple targets, then all they are is weakened versions of the heavy weapons. They would still royally suck, apart from the Dark Sword and the Plasma Sword, which are charge attack weapons.

The only way we could fix the longswords is to fix the normal attack mods and maybe buff the base damage and crit rate for them. As it stands now, the only longswords worth using are Dark Sword and the Plasma Sword, which btw would completely overshadow the heavy weapons if they could hit multiple targets.

Making longswords hit multiple targets would just cause even more balance concerns. Its a bad idea in general. Like I said before, its pretty much like balancing the MK1 Braton by giving it a shotgun spread with each shot. If longswords could hit multiple targets, then everyone would just use the Dark Sword and the Plasma Sword and weapons like the Cronus and Heat Sword would still be near bottom tier because they would just be weakened versions of heavy weapons. Want to fix them? Don't change they way they function, change how effectively they function.

 

The point is not to make longswords aoe dps weapons by just slapping multi-hit capability. The point is to give them the UTILITY to affect targets which their animation already encounters. I don't care if it does 0.00000000% damage. Enemies which are hit by a longswords's ARC should have at least a chance to be staggered and affected by elemental effects especially Mire's poison, and Prova's shock.

 

It's not just a balance problem. It's an aesthetic problem.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Ryjeon

[Grilleds]

The point is not to make longswords aoe dps weapons by just slapping multi-hit capability. The point is to give them the UTILITY to affect targets which their animation already encounters. I don't care if it does 0.00000000% damage. Enemies which are hit by a longswords's ARC should have at least a chance to be staggered and affected by elemental effects especially Mire's poison, and Prova's shock.

 

It's not just a balance problem. It's an aesthetic problem.

Aesthetics shouldn't dictate game balance though. Do you really want to see nothing but squads of people with Dark Swords and Plasma Swords after longswords are changed to be multitarget? We can worry about how the attack animations look after the weapons are functionally balanced.

[BerzyTheBarbarian]

there is a great thread with some melee balance ideas here  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/65672-de-or-design-council-some-ideas-i-think-could-help/#entry689011

[PulseNeon]

Agreed, that would fix a lot of issues, but it depends on what DE does.

[Bashy]

I think what they should do is work on the block mechanic, and then make long swords excel at blocking.

So. Much. Yes.

Seriously, I didn't even know there was a block button until I checked the keybindings. It's sort of like the stealth mechanic. It's there but no one uses it. If blocking was a bigger feature, and more important, then I think giving the longswords a blocking advantage would make them much more useful.