[End-Game Upgrade Concept] The Proficiency System, An Optional Solution to Enemy Scalling Issue?

[FoxFX]

9 hours ago, Czyril said:

 say it in that way to point out that those who actually see issues with any content are either persons who have not spent enough time playing, or aren't very good.  No, this is not an attack on anyone; until seeing this thread, I had never heard a thing about enemy scaling being an issue.  You either get better stuff and trump it or you struggle to get that far. 

The enemy scaling issue has apparently been discussed multiple times in [DE] Devstreams and many threads for a very long time.

WARFRAME VID AFTER U18.13.3 CHANGES

DISCUSSION ABOUT ONE PLAYER WORRYING ABOUT SCALING RUINING DIVERSITY

SECOND DISCUSSION

PERHAPS A MORE CLEARER DISCUSSION ON THE SCALING ISSUES

Mostly, the recent patch has highlighted some of the core problems with the strength of the enemies and it is starting to be noticed that the gameplay for many players isn't really challenging but in a better sense it has become frustrating.

 

10 hours ago, Czyril said:

Now, to a more constructive point... what is your proficiency system took into account MR?  Lower level people tend to need more help, so have it scale, inversely with MR such as P = k/(MR)  where P is your proficiency, k is the coefficient for proficiency gained, and MR is mastery rank.

Mastery Rank has already separated players in Max Affinity for Syndicates, how much equipment they have mastered, and NOW how much sooner you can master a weapon and a Warframe even after attaching a Forma.

 

I personally desire the Proficiency System to NOT take into the account Mastery Rank at all. However, if there is anyone that would like Mastery Rank to actually affect Proficiency I am willing to read up your argument.

 

[Arkhenbarn]

6 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

Mastery Rank has already separated players in Max Affinity for Syndicates, how much equipment they have mastered, and NOW how much sooner you can master a weapon and a Warframe even after attaching a Forma.

I personally desire the Proficiency System to NOT take into the account Mastery Rank at all. However, if there is anyone that would like Mastery Rank to actually affect Proficiency I am willing to read up your argument.

I actually agree with you. Although I do appreciate the fact Mastery Rank is rewarding in some ways like those you mentioned, I don't think neither that the expansion of features similarly restrained by MR should happen. The existence of these few features creates an incentive to try more gear to rank up, but this must not become mandatory to enjoy the full potential of the game ; this is where I support you for not wanting the Proficiency System to take Mastery Rank into account.

[Czyril]

1 hour ago, FoxFX said:

The enemy scaling issue has apparently been discussed multiple times in [DE] Devstreams and many threads for a very long time.

WARFRAME VID AFTER U18.13.3 CHANGES

DISCUSSION ABOUT ONE PLAYER WORRYING ABOUT SCALING RUINING DIVERSITY

SECOND DISCUSSION

PERHAPS A MORE CLEARER DISCUSSION ON THE SCALING ISSUES

Mostly, the recent patch has highlighted some of the core problems with the strength of the enemies and it is starting to be noticed that the gameplay for many players isn't really challenging but in a better sense it has become frustrating.

 

Mastery Rank has already separated players in Max Affinity for Syndicates, how much equipment they have mastered, and NOW how much sooner you can master a weapon and a Warframe even after attaching a Forma.

 

I personally desire the Proficiency System to NOT take into the account Mastery Rank at all. However, if there is anyone that would like Mastery Rank to actually affect Proficiency I am willing to read up your argument.

 

Thanks for the links on the first part.  I appreciate the follow up; tried reading through a lot of this and watched the video.  So far I'm not convinced that these complaints are fully justified.  Most everything provided as counter arguments is wholly subjective, particularly in the video ("this makes for less engaging gameplay" ignores all of the people who enjoy playing CC frames or support/utility where they are more active doing things, helping to allow damage focused persons to do their job easier).  A few points are worthwhile, such as enemy armor scaling seems too strong, however frames like Ash and Frost help negate that issue, also removing the requirement for Corrosive Projection.  That leads more into bringing appropriate compositions than anything else.  An option is to change the equation used for scaling armor/HP/dmg, to create a less steep gradient, seems like a more prudent approach, if the arguement is people don't want to bring those frames.  I wholeheartedly do not think that all frames should be able to perform all roles, and removing the need for CC removes a lot of frames/abilities from the game.  The only thing constant would be weapon damage, which makes Mirage stand out more with Hall of Mirrors taking the cake, or Chroma's Vex Armor.

 

I do like the quote in your "clearer discussion" link, though that inherently causes issues.  My job for years has been to focus on quality and compliance... one thing that happens is controlling variables and removing these "crutches" to see what happens has only changed the meta due to there being so many options.  (Two needed nerfs:) Nerfing blind mirage only made her not perfect for trivializing, so frost, nyx, and booben are used more; nerfing the range on trinity's bless seemed to only really affect the raid where global reduction of damage was important and didn't affect how battery-trin (EV) is being utilized, though the latter has been countered by people using Zenurik and not needing EV at all.  I mention those as there needs to be time to attenuate rather than providing a knee-jerk reaction and slapping something that is A) unnecessary or B) detrimental, which hurts in the long run (not saying your system is A or B, but those are what are being assessed against all ideas for longevity's sake).

 

In my gross perception, I don't feel Tenno damage or abilities should ever be increased beyond the mods we've equipped.  I would agree that I don't personally want MR involved, but that was definitely a question to ask, since newer people might need more of a buffer than an advanced player.

 

Final statement on the topic... as I like that you've given a lot of thought to this, and I can see variants of this being useful in some situations, I'ma "butt-out" of the discussion as I feel that the scaling is more of an issue and putting another system into the game would only convolute and lead to more balancing issues in the long run.

 

Good luck, FoxFX!

[FoxFX]

1 hour ago, Czyril said:

Thanks for the links on the first part.  I appreciate the follow up; tried reading through a lot of this and watched the video.  So far I'm not convinced that these complaints are fully justified.  Most everything provided as counter arguments is wholly subjective, particularly in the video ("this makes for less engaging gameplay" ignores all of the people who enjoy playing CC frames or support/utility where they are more active doing things, helping to allow damage focused persons to do their job easier).  A few points are worthwhile, such as enemy armor scaling seems too strong, however frames like Ash and Frost help negate that issue, also removing the requirement for Corrosive Projection.  That leads more into bringing appropriate compositions than anything else.  An option is to change the equation used for scaling armor/HP/dmg, to create a less steep gradient, seems like a more prudent approach, if the arguement is people don't want to bring those frames.  I wholeheartedly do not think that all frames should be able to perform all roles, and removing the need for CC removes a lot of frames/abilities from the game.  The only thing constant would be weapon damage, which makes Mirage stand out more with Hall of Mirrors taking the cake, or Chroma's Vex Armor.

 

I do like the quote in your "clearer discussion" link, though that inherently causes issues.  My job for years has been to focus on quality and compliance... one thing that happens is controlling variables and removing these "crutches" to see what happens has only changed the meta due to there being so many options.  (Two needed nerfs:) Nerfing blind mirage only made her not perfect for trivializing, so frost, nyx, and booben are used more; nerfing the range on trinity's bless seemed to only really affect the raid where global reduction of damage was important and didn't affect how battery-trin (EV) is being utilized, though the latter has been countered by people using Zenurik and not needing EV at all.  I mention those as there needs to be time to attenuate rather than providing a knee-jerk reaction and slapping something that is A) unnecessary or B) detrimental, which hurts in the long run (not saying your system is A or B, but those are what are being assessed against all ideas for longevity's sake).

 

In my gross perception, I don't feel Tenno damage or abilities should ever be increased beyond the mods we've equipped.  I would agree that I don't personally want MR involved, but that was definitely a question to ask, since newer people might need more of a buffer than an advanced player.

 

Final statement on the topic... as I like that you've given a lot of thought to this, and I can see variants of this being useful in some situations, I'ma "butt-out" of the discussion as I feel that the scaling is more of an issue and putting another system into the game would only convolute and lead to more balancing issues in the long run.

 

Good luck, FoxFX!

Thanks Czyril,

 

I'm glad that you have shared your opinion in this regardless and I welcome really good points that you have brought up.

 

I am certain there is always a better option out there that can eclipse this Proficiency system, but I feel it is always worth it to give it a try.

[MrPigman]

Awkward i just posted something with same premise! ^oops

anywho this seems very well thought out and i could see it being in the game! though my only issue i see with this is that a lot of it seems account bound (which is cool in some cases) but due to the fact that you separately level each stat dont you think it might limit a player into playing only a certain type of frame or taking only certain types of roles?

other than that this looks good, but what would be the real test is in game. things are different on paper than they are in action! But i do agree with this system very much so. reducing enemy scaling wont help much, we need to be able to scale with them!

[FoxFX]

3 hours ago, MrPigman said:

Awkward i just posted something with same premise! ^oops

anywho this seems very well thought out and i could see it being in the game! though my only issue i see with this is that a lot of it seems account bound (which is cool in some cases) but due to the fact that you separately level each stat dont you think it might limit a player into playing only a certain type of frame or taking only certain types of roles?

other than that this looks good, but what would be the real test is in game. things are different on paper than they are in action! But i do agree with this system very much so. reducing enemy scaling wont help much, we need to be able to scale with them!

With the reveal of the Focus Tree, I can say that even [DE] would want to try and evolve the game so that players can chose what type of role they want their Warframes to play.

 

The account bound was something I was encouraged to do in the Reddit version of this concept so that players can feel more flexible when it comes to changing around their loadouts. Also, players would be able to choose which Proficiency they want ranked up to give them more freedom.

[I-JUST-EAT-YOU]

The problem with your system being account bound is, I can put alot of time for proficiency into secondary but my lato will still get destroyed by a vaykor marelok, if it'd be loadout bound I could use the lato so much that at one point my lato will beat your vaykor marelok, and I dont feel the need for another big gameplay aspect added in cause the last 2 major ones failed (Archwing/Focus) 

[FoxFX]

54 minutes ago, I-JUST-EAT-YOU said:

The problem with your system being account bound is, I can put alot of time for proficiency into secondary but my lato will still get destroyed by a vaykor marelok, if it'd be loadout bound I could use the lato so much that at one point my lato will beat your vaykor marelok, and I dont feel the need for another big gameplay aspect added in cause the last 2 major ones failed (Archwing/Focus) 

 

This concept was originally intended to be loadout-bound, but in both the Reddit and the Forums, people HATED such an idea. At any rate, there has been a video discussing this very concept and it ws a very well thought out review.

[Arkhenbarn]

7 hours ago, I-JUST-EAT-YOU said:

[...] I dont feel the need for another big gameplay aspect added in cause the last 2 major ones failed (Archwing/Focus) 

 

I understand what you mean ; but rather than an unwanted feature, I think what caused their failure was their implementation :

• Archwing : nodes too scarce, and globally boring to play for multiple reasons such as distance, lack of diversity of maps, dynamism almost nonexistent at the beginning (terrible flaw in a fast-paced TPS), and no connection to normal mission types (like in the Archwing trailer).
• Focus : in 2 points, Lenses and gains. The fact the equipment requires Lenses that can't be removed to be put on another piece of gear ("diversity") is already a hassle, but the gains are miserable. Et voilà ! How to kill the Focus right at its very birth.

The major reasons of a failure, I think, are as much an aspect of a feature as its implementation. Just implement it right, and people can forgive little flaws. But let's not be too negative : U19 seems full of promises for this 2 poor features (or at least Archwing).

@FoxFXConcerning that matter, do you have a precise idea of how you would see this Proficiency System added to the game, with some numbers about the progression ? Or is it for the moment proposed to the community to measure its interest ?

 

Back to the subject, I do not think the addition of this feature is in itself a need, but rather a way to give a progression to players and reward their efforts towards a specific gameplay. If you are talking about what the game needs to fix balance and scaling, then yes, I agree with you : at best, it can only soften them, not fix them.

Also, where I want to make a point is that, in a game, some things are not about what needs the player, but if they can entertain/interest/appeal to him. In that case, I'm interested about the Proficiency and what it might bring me ingame ; and yet, I don't feel the need of it. If you want an example of what I mean : we have phones, mails, etc. so where is the need of Facebook ? Absolutely not needed, yet greatly interesting for what it brings and allows us to do.

 

Maybe I've misunderstood your thought ; if that's the case, feel free to correct me ^^ .

[FoxFX]

3 hours ago, Arkhenbarn said:

 

I understand what you mean ; but rather than an unwanted feature, I think what caused their failure was their implementation :

• Archwing : nodes too scarce, and globally boring to play for multiple reasons such as distance, lack of diversity of maps, dynamism almost nonexistent at the beginning (terrible flaw in a fast-paced TPS), and no connection to normal mission types (like in the Archwing trailer).
• Focus : in 2 points, Lenses and gains. The fact the equipment requires Lenses that can't be removed to be put on another piece of gear ("diversity") is already a hassle, but the gains are miserable. Et voilà ! How to kill the Focus right at its very birth.

The major reasons of a failure, I think, are as much an aspect of a feature as its implementation. Just implement it right, and people can forgive little flaws. But let's not be too negative : U19 seems full of promises for this 2 poor features (or at least Archwing).

@FoxFXConcerning that matter, do you have a precise idea of how you would see this Proficiency System added to the game, with some numbers about the progression ? Or is it for the moment proposed to the community to measure its interest ?

 

Back to the subject, I do not think the addition of this feature is in itself a need, but rather a way to give a progression to players and reward their efforts towards a specific gameplay. If you are talking about what the game needs to fix balance and scaling, then yes, I agree with you : at best, it can only soften them, not fix them.

Also, where I want to make a point is that, in a game, some things are not about what needs the player, but if they can entertain/interest/appeal to him. In that case, I'm interested about the Proficiency and what it might bring me ingame ; and yet, I don't feel the need of it. If you want an example of what I mean : we have phones, mails, etc. so where is the need of Facebook ? Absolutely not needed, yet greatly interesting for what it brings and allows us to do.

 

Maybe I've misunderstood your thought ; if that's the case, feel free to correct me ^^ .

For the moment, this Proficiency System is a proposal to the community, and I still wondering myself on how this system could come into the game. However, from the video Review of the concept [From Dogman Dan], he believed this idea could be what the Focus System should be about. Think back on it, I have to concur.

[FoxFX]

Dogman Dan's review vid has given me some way to suggest a new take into the Focus System. However, this might eventually make me ditch the Proficiency System and adopt it into the new Focus System Concept I will be posting in the near future.

 

Here is a possible look into what I have in store for the new Focus System:

 

MADURAI: the path of Engage The Enemy. Their swift, uncompromising onslaught, holding nothing back and recklessly attacking their foes, could vanquish an opponent before he had the chance to steel himself. Speed and savagery characterized this school.

• [SCALE FOCUS]: Total Damage increase with Primary/Secondary/Melee weaponry based on Enemy Level of the Mission
• %Damage increase to Status Inflicted Enemies
• Running Speed
• Additional Combo Counter Duration

 

VAZARIN: the path to Counter the Enemy, and move with an opponent's attacks in order to nullify them. They maintained constant awareness in order to defend against all aggression.

• [SCALE FOCUS]: Increased Max Shield based on Enemy Level of the Mission
• # of times to instantly Revive allies
• Increase Revival Range
• Shield Damage with a chance to cause damage reflection with increased damage multiplier

 

NARAMON: the path on Knowing the Enemy, and the tacticians of Naramon believed that to truly understand a foe would confer the greatest advantage upon a warrior.

• [SCALE FOCUS]: Increase Headshot Damage & Stealth Finisher Damage based on Enemy Level of the Mission
• Highlighting Enemy weakspots at a certain range
• Bonus Damage to enemy with full Codex Entries with % chance to gain a Codex Point upon enemy kill
• Critical Hit from Melee causing temporary Cloaking, does not stack & has a few seconds cooldown

 

UNAIRU: the path to Outlast the Enemy, to withstand all aggression without retreat. They believed that if the enemy could not match their endurance, then a battle could be won without having even commenced.

• [SCALE FOCUS]: Total Health increase based on Enemy Level of the Mission
• %bonus Armor
• Standing still grants % damage reduction (needs to stay still for a few seconds to kick in)
• Reducing Enemy Armor based on distance

ZENURIK: the path to Dominate the Enemy. They sought to choke an opponent of all resources; that sheer strength could erase any resistance.

• [SCALE FOCUS]: Total Damage increase with Warframe Damage Abilities based on on Enemy Level of the Mission
• Reduced Power Efficiency by xx%, but receive a minute cooldown before this effect kicks in
• Increases Duration of Perception Powers and/or Buff&Debuff Powers
• Increases chance for enemy to drop additional Ammo, Energy Orb, Health Orb upon kill

 

In this form, there will be only ONE ability in the 5 Schools that scales based on the enemy level. The rest of the abilities will play as other passives with non-scalable gimmicks & support.

[Arkhenbarn]

26 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

Dogman Dan's review vid has given me some way to suggest a new take into the Focus System. However, this might eventually make me ditch the Proficiency System and adopt it into the new Focus System Concept I will be posting in the near future.

 

Here is a possible look into what I have in store for the new Focus System:

 

MADURAI: the path of Engage The Enemy. Their swift, uncompromising onslaught, holding nothing back and recklessly attacking their foes, could vanquish an opponent before he had the chance to steel himself. Speed and savagery characterized this school.

• [SCALE FOCUS]: Total Damage increase with Primary/Secondary/Melee weaponry based on Enemy Level of the Mission
• %Damage increase to Status Inflicted Enemies
• Running Speed
• Additional Combo Counter Duration

 

VAZARIN: the path to Counter the Enemy, and move with an opponent's attacks in order to nullify them. They maintained constant awareness in order to defend against all aggression.

• [SCALE FOCUS]: Increased Max Shield based on Enemy Level of the Mission
• # of times to instantly Revive allies
• Increase Revival Range
• Shield Damage with a chance to cause damage reflection with increased damage multiplier

 

NARAMON: the path on Knowing the Enemy, and the tacticians of Naramon believed that to truly understand a foe would confer the greatest advantage upon a warrior.

• [SCALE FOCUS]: Increase Headshot Damage & Stealth Finisher Damage based on Enemy Level of the Mission
• Highlighting Enemy weakspots at a certain range
• Bonus Damage to enemy with full Codex Entries with % chance to gain a Codex Point upon enemy kill
• Critical Hit from Melee causing temporary Cloaking, does not stack & has a few seconds cooldown

 

UNAIRU: the path to Outlast the Enemy, to withstand all aggression without retreat. They believed that if the enemy could not match their endurance, then a battle could be won without having even commenced.

• [SCALE FOCUS]: Total Health increase based on Enemy Level of the Mission
• %bonus Armor
• Standing still grants % damage reduction (needs to stay still for a few seconds to kick in)
• Reducing Enemy Armor based on distance

ZENURIK: the path to Dominate the Enemy. They sought to choke an opponent of all resources; that sheer strength could erase any resistance.

• [SCALE FOCUS]: Total Damage increase with Warframe Damage Abilities based on on Enemy Level of the Mission
• Reduced Power Efficiency by xx%, but receive a minute cooldown before this effect kicks in
• Increases Duration of Perception Powers and/or Buff&Debuff Powers
• Increases chance for enemy to drop additional Ammo, Energy Orb, Health Orb upon kill

 

In this form, there will be only ONE ability in the 5 Schools that scales based on the enemy level. The rest of the abilities will play as other passives with non-scalable gimmicks & support.

But before integrating it to Focus, the gains must seriously be reviewed first... That would be put a lot of players aside, with the obligation of farming Focus to get these scalable buffs, and I don't have time for that either personally... I bet I'm not alone in that case.

[FoxFX]

42 minutes ago, Arkhenbarn said:

But before integrating it to Focus, the gains must seriously be reviewed first... That would be put a lot of players aside, with the obligation of farming Focus to get these scalable buffs, and I don't have time for that either personally... I bet I'm not alone in that case.

I've considered this too, but like how the Proficiency System was designed I don't want the gains to overshadow too much of gameplay skill. Just simply to more or less "ease up" the scaling. That is why the Scaling Focus abilities will also behave how the Proficiency System behaves with it relating to the enemy levels.

 

If it is the Madurai variant, I am garnering around a +1~3% Total Damage increase for each Enemy Level over the 30~60 Level margin. The only thing that scales would be the maximum enemy level that passive reaches.

Edited June 7, 2016 by FoxFX