The Devil Is In The Details

[Bakim0n0]

Ok, I'm pretty sure I don't need an introduction, I've spammed the forum enough for people who have heard me talk at least a few times and I'm sure the DE staff has seen at least some of it.

I want to start off as saying that I love this game, I love the concept, I genuinely had a good time up until more recently but... I have to be honest here.

DE, you're being ambitious, and that is great, but you're overdoing it IMO. You're making a mad dash to put out content, and that's fantastic, but you're doing it too fast and under-prepared. Essentially, from what I've seen you're pulling an Icarus, reaching for the sun but you're going to melt your wings.

Please, slow down. Stop pushing out content you haven't, very thoroughly, tested and before you push out new weapons look at how they perform, compare that to other weapons and ask yourself where that new weapon fits.

You're not doing yourselves a favor putting out new stuff that has minor details glossed over; especially when you ask people to pay for it.

I sincerely wish you guys knock it out of the park, but my patience has worn thin. I'm taking a break from Warframe for awhile and I'll check back in a few months.

[KitsuAccalia]

pay for what? There is no weapons limited to money. '^' I have not a clue what you speak of.

[Ghobe]

You're not doing yourselves a favor putting out new stuff that has minor details glossed over; especially when you ask people to pay for it.

I sincerely wish you guys knock it out of the park, but my patience has worn thin. I'm taking a break from Warframe for awhile and I'll check back in a few months.

/clearthroat

Bay-tah.

We're here to test this stuff, not play it. Stop approaching it with the wrong mentality.

[KhanCipher]

/clearthroat

Bay-tah.

We're here to test this stuff, not play it. Stop approaching it with the wrong mentality.

 

what beta means to investors: "Ok, it's not ready yet."

what beta means to publishers: "Far out, we can get people to pay us to beta test our products!"

what beta means to devs: "But it's in beta! (we just hope you don't notice that bug that's been there since forever)"

what beta means to players: "Just release it already and get it over with!"

what beta means to reviewers: "We can't do a review on a beta because we'd run the risk of losing credibility."

 

this is what beta really means in today's gaming industry.

Edited June 17, 2013 by KhanCipher

[Bakim0n0]

/clearthroat

Bay-tah.

We're here to test this stuff, not play it. Stop approaching it with the wrong mentality.

Something tells me I have been gaming since before you were even in existence.

I know exactly what Beta is, and you know... you PAY testers they don't pay you in the real world. To an extent we are here to test things and give feedback but that doesn't mean it's acceptable for devs to continually push out content that has problems ranging from just plain broke to majorly imbalanced.

If we were proper testers, like most successful games, we'd either be paid for our time and fill out constant feedback and bug reports or we'd have a private / semi-public test server with specific players simply to comprehensively test everything before pushing it out live.

Being in a beta phase (which btw is largely a bs term that is used in place of launch / soft launch to try and excuse the partially finished nature of the game) does not mean it is acceptable to publish incomplete content with proofreading errors (the bulk of problems are minor variables that someone fudged on) *ESPECIALLY* if you put a price tag on them. And yes, you don't *have* to pay for new weapons but that does not change the fact that you *CAN* and they are *ASKING* for people who want to buy it for their money.

[Ghobe]

Yes, yes the term beta has been warped and confused in the mainstream these days. It has been quite clear that DE is using the original term and not the mainstream version. DE is not a huge company with access to a large multitude of alpha/in-house testers, they have to resort to those willing in the public.

There is also a difference between a volunteer tester and a tester that is being paid. Both of these can exist and both of these can work on the same project.

Another thing, not every company does everything exactly the same. Some push for feedback on every tiny feature every single time, some push for feedback at the end of a test period, and then there are those like DE that only encourage the testers to give feedback while they stare at their behind-the-scenes data.

Final thing: They are not asking for money, they are allowing you to donate and reward you for it, there's a difference.

[unmog]

Actually the point of the beta IS to test the content... so let them put out the content, then we'll test it. See how that works? Sometimes it's not easy being QA.

[ReiganCross]

Sorry to see you go, Baki. Hope you'll gather to come back eventually, because yeah, i'm getting tired as well, but i'm willing to stay here at least part-time until they're done!

See you later, Tenno!

[Bakim0n0]

Yes, yes the term beta has been warped and confused in the mainstream these days. It has been quite clear that DE is using the original term and not the mainstream version. DE is not a huge company with access to a large multitude of alpha/in-house testers, they have to resort to those willing in the public.

There is also a difference between a volunteer tester and a tester that is being paid. Both of these can exist and both of these can work on the same project.

Another thing, not every company does everything exactly the same. Some push for feedback on every tiny feature every single time, some push for feedback at the end of a test period, and then there are those like DE that only encourage the testers to give feedback while they stare at their behind-the-scenes data.

Final thing: They are not asking for money, they are allowing you to donate and reward you for it, there's a difference.

Notice how I commented on having a private / semi-private build for testing before pushing it through.

As for that last part.

Look at the front page. Feel free to point me in the direction of the "Donate" section; pretty sure it says "Buy"

[Quetzhal]

Pity you're leaving; you were one of the people I wanted to ask the opinion of regarding a post I wanted to make (that I still haven't gotten around to making, because it will be a looooong post).

In any case, I personally think that the fact remains that they would need testers in order to thoroughly test their content; there's only so much they can do on their own (it took me many, many runs before I first encountered the Void door bug, for instance). Perhaps releasing content early on a test server for a segment of willing players to test for them? The Design Council, or some other such thing?

I don't much have a problem with the way they're releasing content since they do look at the feedback and immediately work on it - as per the hotfixes after Update 8. One thing I like about DE is that they take the beta label quite seriously and are constantly working towards improving. But yeah, I can see where you're coming from.

[VScipii26]

Actually the point of the beta IS to test the content... so let them put out the content, then we'll test it. See how that works? Sometimes it's not easy being QA.

But that's not an excuse to do nothing but unpolished content.

You can't throw down all your cards made of scrap paper and expect to win.

Just like in cooking, clean as you go.

[Ghobe]

Notice how I commented on having a private / semi-private build for testing before pushing it through.

As for that last part.

Look at the front page. Feel free to point me in the direction of the "Donate" section; pretty sure it says "Buy"

Beta tests tend to come in two forms: open and closed. You're speaking of a closed beta. That or you're trying to refer to some hand-selected group that they could set-up on their own server before having the changes come to the main testing server. Problem is that's kind of pricey, and for someone without a publisher, a little too pricey.

 

As to the buy vs donate thing. The buy platinum fades into the background quite a bit for me, white text on a black/white background? Not exactly the best choice for something you're trying to push. You know what does stand out? The become a founder button. Though their text just above the button could use a different font as well, it's right next to one of the most eye-catching things out there and what does it say? "Shape the future of warframe". Sounds like they're looking for ideas/opinions on content/future content to me. And with that being the most eye-catching thing(the only other thing on the same level is the download now button), it looks to me that they are pushing for feedback/ideas more than money, sir.

 

But that's not an excuse to do nothing but unpolished content.

You can't throw down all your cards made of scrap paper and expect to win.

Just like in cooking, clean as you go.

You don't test on Ultra, you test on normal, maybe high. The only time Ultra gets tested is just slightly before you're ready to call your product released.

[Bakim0n0]

Beta tests tend to come in two forms: open and closed. You're speaking of a closed beta. That or you're trying to refer to some hand-selected group that they could set-up on their own server before having the changes come to the main testing server. Problem is that's kind of pricey, and for someone without a publisher, a little too pricey.

 

As to the buy vs donate thing. The buy platinum fades into the background quite a bit for me, white text on a black/white background? Not exactly the best choice for something you're trying to push. You know what does stand out? The become a founder button. Though their text just above the button could use a different font as well, it's right next to one of the most eye-catching things out there and what does it say? "Shape the future of warframe". Sounds like they're looking for ideas/opinions on content/future content to me. And with that being the most eye-catching thing(the only other thing on the same level is the download now button), it looks to me that they are pushing for feedback/ideas more than money, sir.

Uhh... It's not hard at all to dedicate a very small portion of the existing server resources to a small test server especially since this game has very low demands on servers in the first place (that's why we host our own matches). It's not that pricey, actually, I can set up a computer capable of hosting a WoW server with scraps cannibalized from old machines; yes it's an older game but we're talking about 5+ year old parts.

As for your buying plat bit... Don't try to use silly nonsensical justification for your misrepresentation. "It's donate because in my mind it is" doesn't fly. They are selling plat, you purchase it not donate.

[BoompigXD]

As for your buying plat bit... Don't try to use silly nonsensical justification for your misrepresentation. "It's donate because in my mind it is" doesn't fly. They are selling plat, you purchase it not donate.

I think he was talking about the founder button..............

 

 

As to the buy vs donate thing. The buy platinum fades into the background quite a bit for me, white text on a black/white background? Not exactly the best choice for something you're trying to push. You know what does stand out? The become a founder button. Though their text just above the button could use a different font as well, it's right next to one of the most eye-catching things out there and what does it say? "Shape the future of warframe". Sounds like they're looking for ideas/opinions on content/future content to me. And with that being the most eye-catching thing(the only other thing on the same level is the download now button), it looks to me that they are pushing for feedback/ideas more than money, sir.

 

Yep, Becoming a founder is donating.

 

I agree with you on that one.

[Ghobe]

As for your buying plat bit... Don't try to use silly nonsensical justification for your misrepresentation. "It's donate because in my mind it is" doesn't fly. They are selling plat, you purchase it not donate.

They reward you with plat. Hell I can go pretty abstract here and just call it them letting you test their cash shop features.

[Excitonex]

DE definitely needs to slow things down a bit. Vauban was so broken when he got released that I couldn't use half his abilities and when I did use them they worked maybe half the time. Some very obvious bugs got through that should not have. It definitely put me off of ever paying for another frame. I'd rather just wait so by the time I earn it all the bugs are worked out by those who actually decided to shell out money.

 

Also, DE has done a very poor job of going back through abilities and making them useful. If half the Saryns in the game are running around using one ability chances are the other abilities should be looked at and buffed. There are many abilities that are, quite simply, worthless. If casting my first ability 4 times does not give me an effect even close to casting my ultimate once what is the first ability there for?

 

All I want to see in the next couple weeks is fixes and tweaks to current content. I own 5 frames and I don't intend to build any others because their abilities do not seem up to par. If all the frames had 4 good abilities like Vauban does now, as they should, then you will have added much more content in my eyes. Frames like Volt should be something that I look forward to building instead of a group of BPs that sit in my foundry forever until I need mastery rank.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Excitonex

[Mhak]

Something tells me I have been gaming since before you were even in existence.

I know exactly what Beta is, and you know... you PAY testers they don't pay you in the real world. To an extent we are here to test things and give feedback but that doesn't mean it's acceptable for devs to continually push out content that has problems ranging from just plain broke to majorly imbalanced.

To the first part of this quote - you're kinda conceited, broseph. Just felt the need to throw out why you *might* be superior to this dude (in the sense of gaming more...way to go, buddy...) at the start of your reply? I'm sure he read that and felt really humbled, and everybody else nodded sagely in regards to your superiority.

 

To the second part - it is completely acceptable for devs to continuously push out content that has problems. The best way to find and fix those problems is by having a huge community play with them to find out everything about it. A small team of devs just can't compete with a community of tens of thousands for finding flaws.

 

If you want to whine about how they make us pay for a game in beta, right there with you man, but the rest of what you're saying is sort of garbage.

[Bakim0n0]

To the first part of this quote - you're kinda conceited, broseph. Just felt the need to throw out why you *might* be superior to this dude (in the sense of gaming more...way to go, buddy...) at the start of your reply? I'm sure he read that and felt really humbled, and everybody else nodded sagely in regards to your superiority.

 

To the second part - it is completely acceptable for devs to continuously push out content that has problems. The best way to find and fix those problems is by having a huge community play with them to find out everything about it. A small team of devs just can't compete with a community of tens of thousands for finding flaws.

 

If you want to whine about how they make us pay for a game in beta, right there with you man, but the rest of what you're saying is sort of garbage.

Perhaps, I tend to be an A****** when someone is to me. It's a character flaw but, who is perfect? I don't much care for people talking to me like I'm an idiot or a child.

It's not so much that I am needing a break because they keep pushing out broken content, it's moreso that things are being too rushed, too hasty and they keep pushing forward with MORE stuff that has major problems. It's nice to get new stuff, but we're getting almost a new weapon every week on average?

The game is suffering for it. Maybe others aren't noticing it as much because they haven't seen it as long, maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there; either way I'm stepping back and I'll check in after awhile.

[SnokyoDrift]

I've seen you around and I can tell you that I know many people who are feeling the same way, including I. My friends are getting annoyed at the lack of attention from the devs to the small, but vital, elements of the game.

 

"It's a beta"

No bugstomping

"It's a beta"
No convenient, in game way of reporting bugs

"It's a beta"

No testing of ambitious concepts or gameplay elements

"It's a beta"

Heaps of paid content available already.

"It's a beta"
Zero well thought out attempts to rebalance gameplay

[xenapan]

I totally agree with OP. The issue is DE is also working off a limited budget and part of the issue is they NEED to keep at the breakneck pace or ELSE they WILL run out of money. It's not like the game NEEDS more weapons. there are plenty of weapons in game, yet they release 22 new ones in the last patch. why? releasing weapons in the dojo forces clans to use forma. forma (hopefully) spurs spending on forma and or void keys. (remember how hard it was to get a void key pre- buff? it was 2-3% vs the current 30% for t2s.)

 

The reason why we keep ending up doing alpha testing instead of beta testing is because we as a community haven't held DE to very high standards. they throw out untested patches, buying habits dont reflect the quality of the patches they keep releasing (not in terms of amount of content, but quality as in how many bugs there are within the content.)

Edited June 17, 2013 by xenapan

[SnokyoDrift]

I totally agree with OP. The issue is DE is also working off a limited budget and part of the issue is they NEED to keep at the breakneck pace or ELSE they WILL run out of money. It's not like the game NEEDS more weapons. there are plenty of weapons in game, yet they release 22 new ones in the last patch. why? releasing weapons in the dojo forces clans to use forma. forma (hopefully) spurs spending on forma and or void keys. (remember how hard it was to get a void key pre- buff? it was 2-3% vs the current 30% for t2s.)

 

I have no access to their finances, but they've gathered around $1 million from Grandmaster's Packages alone (from counting the solar landmarks). Now think about the quantity of Masters, Hunters and Disciples that exist compared to that, and consider the fact that it's all digital purchase (as opposed to box copies). This game is definitely making a lot of money so they really have no where to hide on that aspect, especially when the time required to rebalance old weapons and fix gameplay elements is far, FAR less that the time required to create new maps, frames and weapons. We've got solid proof that they have the manpower to churn out content, so it begs the question, WTF are they thinking?

Edited June 17, 2013 by Tryysaeder

[Gestalt]

NUUUUUUU~ not bakemono~ TT____TT

They've probably bitten off a bit more than they can chew by getting onto PS4, but that's an investment that's gonna be good in the long run. It's guaranteed mega exposure and tons of new players joining, which would enable them to be able to make more money and produce more content faster and more ambitiously. But I agree, in the meantime, the content has suffered as a result. Lots of artificial content locks to slow down progression and faulty systems introduced.

Hopefully now E3 is over, they will be able to get back to actually working on balancing the game.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Gestalt

[Mhak]

 We've got solid proof that they have the manpower to churn out content, so it begs the question, WTF are they thinking?

As OP said, they're churning out content pretty damn quickly. What they're not doing is churning out content that is spotlessly balanced upon release, which seems to be OP's gripe, and to be fair it's true - there really are tons of flaws with all the content they're releasing.

 

Is everybody seriously unaware that this game is a business, and all players are being used as the beta testers they are in order to play with all that faulty content, and then go whine on the forums so it gets fixed? Is everybody seriously unaware that this is how every beta works? Damn guys. I love to $#*(@ and moan about parts of the game I don't like, and so should all of you, because that's how the devs discover what's wrong with their game so they can balance it before release. But saying you're going to stop beta testing because the beta is too unbalanced...dear god it's painful to read, at least come up with a different excuse because that one kills brain cells.

 

Really the only fair gripe here is that a lot of us are spending money on this game, while it's still so unbalanced. True fact. But you also have to concede that nobody forced you to pay a dime - you did it either as a founder to help fund this game (in which case you shouldn't be complaining about anything because you helped fund the construction of a game not yet completed), or just to buy plat for new shinies. In the latter case it can be argued you're just impatient.

 

I seriously hate playing the devil's advocate but a lot of you simply don't seem to know what the hell you're doing. You may enjoy playing this game but in fact you are testing it. Stop whining like you paid full box price for an unbalanced game, because that's what most of you sound like you're doing.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Mhak

[Bakim0n0]

-snip-

Didn't you ride in on some high horse about manners, being conceited etc etc etc?

It's obvious that you find what I wrote painful to read, because it sounds like you didn't read it. That or you just enjoy misrepresenting things said and inserting your own assertions.

"Is everybody seriously unaware that this game is a business, and all players are being used as the beta testers they are in order to play with all that faulty content, and then go whine on the forums so it gets fixed?"

More than one way to skin a cat; and not every game does it this way, there are more than a few games that have private or semi-private test servers and builds that they allow focused players to test and give feedback + check for little details. That being said, I have no problem testing for DE, and I actually do quite a bit of it. It is, however, extremely frustrating to give lots of feedback about a change and have it go unaddressed / partially addressed and then other features that weren't broken get adjusted sloppily (auto-flipping on wall runs for example) and new weapons slapped out rife with a new set of problems while the problems for 3-4 patches ago are largely unaddressed.

"But you also have to concede that nobody forced you to pay a dime - you did it either as a founder to help fund this game (in which case you shouldn't be complaining about anything because you helped fund the construction of a game not yet completed), or just to buy plat for new shinies. In the latter case it can be argued you're just impatient."

Interesting. I'm going to have to assume you either haven't been around as long, or you haven't been paying attention. I became a founder before OBT because I saw what was going on and I wanted to support it... but basically, since around the glaive introduction the game has been moving in a different direction; a mixed bag of good and bad, and the bad piled up too high for me to ignore.

"I seriously hate playing the devil's advocate but a lot of you simply don't seem to know what the hell you're doing. You may enjoy playing this game but in fact you are testing it. Stop whining like you paid full box price for an unbalanced game, because that's what most of you sound like you're doing."

hang on...

" Damn guys. I love to $#*(@ and moan about parts of the game I don't like, and so should all of you, because that's how the devs discover what's wrong with their game so they can balance it before release."

So... now feedback about being disappointed in what is going on is just whining for no reason? Or wait, I'm supposed to give feedback... but... not... give... feedback? Which is it? Do I give feedback about the lack of attention to detail or not? I give feedback all day... read my topic feed, I give feedback out the yin-yang.

Or do you think I have nearly 2k posts because I'm quiet and reserved?

 

Edited June 17, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[xenapan]

I have no access to their finances, but they've gathered around $1 million from Grandmaster's Packages alone (from counting the solar landmarks). Now think about the quantity of Masters, Hunters and Disciples that exist compared to that, and consider the fact that it's all digital purchase (as opposed to box copies). This game is definitely making a lot of money so they really have no where to hide on that aspect, especially when the time required to rebalance old weapons and fix gameplay elements is far, FAR less that the time required to create new maps, frames and weapons. We've got solid proof that they have the manpower to churn out content, so it begs the question, WTF are they thinking?

They are thinking ahead. Increased playerbase also increases server costs (they've had to upgrade servers at least 3 times), and to go with that, the number of technical support staff, all of which are probably on salaries. 1 million is 20 people's salaries for a year @50k ea or 10 peoples for 2 years. And thats hardly the end of the costs. If you paid attention to the last livestream, they have also been pulling in more people for practically all the teams. I don't know how many people their income is spread across, but I can tell you it's not a huge amount. The fact is they have been constantly pushing to grow the community size to get more players (and thus more paying players) which basically points to a probable budget size etc. Its not like Steve and Scott take 500k each, build a money tower and dive into it like Scrooge Mc Duck. Do you have any idea how much it takes to run a company?