So You Fix Our Slide Yet De?

[Ghobe]

This isn't a thread discussing how cooperative play is impacted. It's about discussing the overall use and standpoint of having the slide mechanic and stamina in the game in the first place.

Way to touch on the final sentence of the whole post and nothing else.

[Bakim0n0]

As to this, I actually prefer it because of this.

Which is fine... but not everyone does; and I think that's the point a lot of us are making. What was hurt in the game because of the way it was? What was it supposed to fix? If more advanced users can still get that high speed what was accomplished by changing it?

Lets look at this critically... People are leaving the game over this, or more specifically this was the citing incident that got them to the point where they were too annoyed with the changes to continue.

So, basically, it alienated some players, didn't fix the speed differences (actually in a lot of ways it made it worse) it negatively effected some people's play style and what's the upside really?

I get that with every choice there will be people who like it and people who don't... but really, what's the up-side to making the game less fun for people, especially your dedicated long-term people? Newer players and players who preferred a more slow / methodical play style didn't feel this change nearly as hard as those of us attracted to the super high speed flow of the game; and those people don't need to re-learn months of habits and muscle memory to adapt to a change they disliked in the first place.

can you compensate for it? Absolutely. Is it more tedious and less fun? Yes, granted the latter part is subjective.

[Feam]

Bwhahahahhahahh You kidding right?

 

Let me tell you why it was rather useless to patch this up.

 

1: It doesn't harm you in any kind of way when other people use it.

2: This is only PvE and those that do not use it will not notice it. Those that do use it, often use it with others who also use it. Which mean they have a lot of fun doing so.

3: The flow of the game is laughable because you just as easily run past these enemies without so much of a problem. Maybe a normal jump slide will get you far enough away. So that flow is is not an issue.

4: I've played with plenty of people and this was never an issue for me.

 

I don't get why you're so against people being able to do it. For me it doesn't matter if someone wants to do a silent run, speed run, scavenge run or full out. It's their way of having fun in this game and if you start to remove those fun elements for those people you'll customers.

 

The Quake game was never supposed to have that jump bug where you kept getting faster and faster. But instead of removing it, the creators left it in because a lot of people liked it. Now it's a key feature to that franchise. Well it was kinda lost in the latest Quake game if I remember correctly. 

Same thing with Half-Life 1 and Counter Strike 1.6. Those jump bugs that allowed you to break a certain speed barrier has not been patched out because so many loves it.

 

Warframe should not have patched this out because people like it and it will only make the game less fun for those people. I didn't use it that much but I still liked it when I wanted to backtrack quickly. Now I just have to run and do a normal sprint jump kick. It's boring in short.

 

If I can defy gravity with wall running in both sideways and height I should be able to slide dash jump slide and so on.

Aside from the fact that your core argument is "The flow of the game is laughable" (Which is a sentence you should really look into, but I'm afraid I'll spare my time and let you dig in on your own),

Nearly every topic you discussed is either - as I stated - subjective, or simply a Logical fallacy.

I don't intend to open your mind for you, if this is your belief you can hold on to it. We can agree to disagree.

[Bakim0n0]

I think that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

Streaming Thrak Rhino no Rush mod Dual Skana No HUD

 

http://www.twitch.tv/ryjeon

 

Money meet mouth

Ok, so you demonstrated that you don't know what trick I am talking about that would let you move a lot faster if you don't have a good wall-run spot. That or you just don't use it.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Feam]

As far as I'm concerned, stamina is pretty much a useless characteristic of this game.

I discussed this before in detail of the use of acrobatics in this game. It bleeds into the realm of this thread. 

 

> https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/62846-acrobatics-and-level-design/#entry656199

In my thread, I give examples about how this game doesn't give you very much freedom to use your acrobatics.

 

If you really look at what you use stamina for, you'll realize you only REALLY use it in two places. Where you're running, or where you are wallrunning over a gap. You never run out of stamina when you are using your melee attack, whether you have Ankyros or Dual Ethers with full Fury mod and are spamming E until your finger falls off, or a Scindo or Gram constantly using charge attacks.

 

There is literally no point to having stamina in this game, other than the sake of realism. This isn't Skyrim, where stamina actually affects combat. In Skyrim, your attacks cost a decent chunk of stamina. You do less damage the less stamina you have, you run slower, and when you exhaust the bar completely, it takes longer to recharge.

 

tl;dr, Stamina is useless.

Now this is how you present an argument! A lot of valid points in this one, and I hope it is something the devs could discuss.

Now, that doesn't mean Stamina should flat out be removed. it is an option, but a Quitter's option isn't it?

The system is far from perfect right now, but it can go in many different directions. I'm interested in hearing what DE thinks about it.

[Ryjeon]

Ok, so you demonstrated that you don't know what trick I am talking about that would let you move a lot faster if you don't have a good wall-run spot. That or you just don't use it.

 

Yeah, I pretty much use what I'm comfortable with. Which I guess is what this whole thread is about. I only recently became comfortable with boosting from a quick wall-run.

 

But I wouldn't call air-skating a "tedious exploit". It's just a move that my mobility skill-level has yet to encompass. This might be because I don't have much experience with dual-zorens and the extra-quick melee weapons.

 

All the recent patch did was increase the difficulty of certain maneuvers. It did not remove them. If you feel you are plodding along as Rhino, than you need to click those buttons and learn some new tricks, because there are many.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Ryjeon

[JCDenton91]

Yeah, why should running take stamina? Everyone can run forever without getting tired, right?

We are freaking playing ninjas in freaking power armor. Screw reality and our silly physical limitations.

[Ryjeon]

Now this is how you present an argument! A lot of valid points in this one, and I hope it is something the devs could discuss.

Now, that doesn't mean Stamina should flat out be removed. it is an option, but a Quitter's option isn't it?

The system is far from perfect right now, but it can go in many different directions. I'm interested in hearing what DE thinks about it.

 

Now this is a fair point. Stamina only really affects inexperienced players. Seasoned players can circumvent any stamina barriers and can choose to ignore even the use of the Rush mod to get around. So the system does need to be reworked in some respect so that stamina doesn't hinder new players so much and can actually affect experienced players.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Ryjeon

[Pourvoir]

Yeah, why should running take stamina? Everyone can run forever without getting tired, right?

 

2 words. Space ninja

 

Realism in my games?  Nah, I prefer italian plumbers that can run forever and get twice their size from running into a mushroom.  I don't get the forcing realism crap in games.  

[Pourvoir]

Stop being so childish, Pourvoir is right. We should be space 'ninjas' but they're taking our freedom of being fast away, and the way u handle ur comment about leaving everything out of the game is unappropiate 

 

He's just using logical fallacies by taking what I said and exaggerating it immensely which doesn't prove a point.

[Ceres666]

Stop whining.

[VER1]

I believe there is always going to be a 'flaw' even if there are attempts to slow down the people who choose to rush ahead of everyone becuase DE can not 'fix' people and make them decide to all want to move in a pack at a specific pace.

 

Some will go too slow while others will go too fast.

I know people who go so slow because they need to open up every loot box and kill every enemy they see before leaving the room.

I know of people who will help their friends gain access to a new location by joining their lobby rushing the objective, leaving them behind, letting them die and wait at the evac for them if they make it there.

 

Best option is to find people who move at around your pace and make friends with them, join their clan or make a clan.

[NanoDecerto]

2 words. Space ninja

 

Realism in my games?  Nah, I prefer italian plumbers that can run forever and get twice their size from running into a mushroom.  I don't get the forcing realism crap in games.  

Well then what is the point of stamina at all with that logic. Limited stamina makes you think about how you use it and so you have to slow down at some point. Really it's just an anti-speed running mechanic. If one physical activity requires the use of stamina, so should all physically taxing actions. The only other solution would be removing stamina as a whole which would give the players the option to just not even bother with attackers.

[Pourvoir]

Well then what is the point of stamina at all with that logic. Limited stamina makes you think about how you use it and so you have to slow down at some point. Really it's just an anti-speed running mechanic. If one physical activity requires the use of stamina, so should all physically taxing actions. The only other solution would be removing stamina as a whole which would give the players the option to just not even bother with attackers.

 

You don't have to bother with attackers regardless.  If i'm speed running I won't so that doesn't change anything.  Most movements do affect your stamina, just not by much.  Melee, running, jumping, and wall running consume it.  I think stamina should not be used by running, BUT I think it needs to stay in the game for wall running.  Why?  Because if people can wall run forever it is obviously going to cause problems and being able to do weird glitches in levels and possibly open up a lot of exploits.  

[Bakim0n0]

Yeah, I pretty much use what I'm comfortable with. Which I guess is what this whole thread is about. I only recently became comfortable with boosting from a quick wall-run.

 

But I wouldn't call air-skating a "tedious exploit". It's just a move that my mobility skill-level has yet to encompass. This might be because I don't have much experience with dual-zorens and the extra-quick melee weapons.

 

All the recent patch did was increase the difficulty of certain maneuvers. It did not remove them. If you feel you are plodding along as Rhino, than you need to click those buttons and learn some new tricks, because there are many.

I already explained it wasn't that I am upset the changes slowed me down significantly... they didn't... They really didn't touch the fastest way to zoom around noticeably (the diminishing return momentum from slide momentum matters little when you're doing that once every second or so). It was how the changes effected the overall experience that cheapened it for me... It's not that hard to compensate for the changes, it just is less enjoyable (SUBJECTIVE) than it used to be.

Don't confuse... I have long said the changes didn't remove the ability to move fast, it took out the easier way to move fast. I've always had the stance that it didn't break the game, it just made things I used to really enjoy less so. It's always been about my own, subjective experience.

That being said, I doubt DE will ever reverse this, and I'm ok with that... there are like 5 other games about to pop that I am trying to get into.

[theammostore]

To put this out there... you likely don't see what all the fuss is about because you didn't use it the way others have.

As I said before; like it or lump it people have developed playstyles over the last several months and this change directly, tangibly changed that and while the target was some exploiting it had a wider effect. It's not an issue with Loki or Ash because they were always fast all by themselves; the problem is when you're a frame like Rhino or Frost and there is one of the very fast frames either rushing past everything or clearing rooms before you can get there. Yes, it can still be compensated for but now instead of being able to glide along you have to scramble and make a mad dash.

Also, mix that with how this change influenced the subtleties of melee combat (namely, using slide tactically) and you see a much more drastic change if you were / are a melee focused player (the second slide in the chain has nearly no forward momentum and that REALLY changes your flow in combat believe it or not)

I did use it the way everyone else did, actually. I flipped all over the place, slide along and it was interesting to be a space flipper ninja, honestly. But once the change happened, since I already knew it was annoying and pointless and an oversight on the dev's part, I changed up my playstyle. I used it when it was appropriate, when I slid by someone and there was some cover or a low wall in the way, or a hole was in the way. Or just for style points when I wanted to gun down someone, or when I wanted a jump slam but needed breathing room. Not, and I repeat, NOT, to just glide around the level like it's made of Ice and I'm a puck on legs..

Edited June 17, 2013 by theammostore

[Ryjeon]

I already explained it wasn't that I am upset the changes slowed me down significantly... they didn't... They really didn't touch the fastest way to zoom around noticeably (the diminishing return momentum from slide momentum matters little when you're doing that once every second or so). It was how the changes effected the overall experience that cheapened it for me... It's not that hard to compensate for the changes, it just is less enjoyable (SUBJECTIVE) than it used to be.

Don't confuse... I have long said the changes didn't remove the ability to move fast, it took out the easier way to move fast. I've always had the stance that it didn't break the game, it just made things I used to really enjoy less so. It's always been about my own, subjective experience.

That being said, I doubt DE will ever reverse this, and I'm ok with that... there are like 5 other games about to pop that I am trying to get into.

 

This is understandable. I would rage a storm if they took out the Sprint/Roll combo button, or toggle crouch. There is a lot of confusion and misinformation with this particular change though. A lot of people are acting like their only option is to press shift+w to get around now. But there are a lot of good points being made too.

 

I think the current mobility problem distills down to stamina being a major hindrance for inexperienced players for whom sprinting is the primary form of speedy motion, but seasoned players can completely ignore stamina as a resource and utilize an array of movement mechanics. Are we seasoned players ready to accept stamina having an effect on our mobility? I'm hesitant to say.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Ryjeon

[Bakim0n0]

I did use it the way everyone else did, actually. I flipped all over the place, slide along and it was interesting to be a space flipper ninja, honestly. But once the change happened, since I already knew it was annoying and pointless and an oversight on the dev's part, I changed up my playstyle. I used it when it was appropriate, when I slid by someone and there was some cover or a low wall in the way, or a hole was in the way. Or just for style points when I wanted to gun down someone, or when I wanted a jump slam but needed breathing room. Not, and I repeat, NOT, to just glide around the level like it's made of Ice and I'm a puck on legs..

Yeah, and that's what I meant more... you didn't use it the way I was talking about specifically... Which is largely my own fault for not communicating it.

It's not so much that I give even half a crap about people not being able to zoom around by spamming slide attack... it's moreso that it hampered my own and several other's melee style of chaining moves together that involved conserving momentum to maximize melee mobility... As a player who, outside of leveling frames, generally likes to do to bulk of their killing up close and personal... it's a bitter pill to swallow when you were used to getting 5-6m out of that 2nd chained slide in a combo and only moving 1-2m... Yeah, it can be compensated for (not that difficult to) but it doesn't FEEL good to do so.

[Callback]

The one thing they need to fix is making the jump out of a slide count as a sprint action, so we can air kick out of it without needing to hold shift BEFORE jumping or bind a sprint toggle.  An added bonus would be to fine-tune the "cooldown" to about half, but that one is more to fix the melee exploit.  How can we be ninjas if we don't do flips and S#&$ for absolutely no reason whatsoever?

[Bakim0n0]

This is understandable. I would rage a storm if they took out the Sprint/Roll combo button, or toggle crouch. There is a lot of confusion and misinformation with this particular change though. A lot of people are acting like their only option is to press shift+w to get around now. But there are a lot of good points being made too.

 

I think the current mobility problem distills down to stamina being a major hindrance for inexperienced players for whom sprinting is the primary form of speedy motion, but seasoned players can completely ignore stamina as a resource and utilize an array of movement mechanics. Are we seasoned players ready to accept stamina having an effect on our mobility? I'm hesitant to say.

Agreed. I never really had much of a feeling regarding the overall ability to move around outside of being annoyed that I can get way way way way way ahead of the group more than ever. What affected me moreso was the flow of fast paced melee combat.

I have no problem with stamina playing a larger role in our movement; hell I would support removing the slide cap and making the maneuvers actually use stamina more reliably and then having the diminishing returns only when out of stamina... because I could still actually perform the very things that frustrate me now by simply managing my stam (as compared to just not being able to do it *ever*)

[Gregio]

You don't have to bother with attackers.  If i'm speed running I won't so that doesn't change anything.

Slightly paraphrased, but if you have all seen the livestream, then that there, is the reason they applied this fix.

In the livestream, they said they needed to restrict rushers. This isn't just because they disapprove or whatever, but because there's been a lot of complaints about people who hate rushers. Specially in pubs.

DE has said that they love people who rush through rooms, killing stuff and going to their goal.

But people who just dash through the whole map, to the objective, without killing anything? Scott or Steve have said on a livestream that this is quite boring and not at all their vision for the game.

So, tl;dr. Super rushing, no killing is not how they want you to play the game and they made it harder to do so.

If you want to have no kills, wait for the Stealth update they talked about. I think a stealth objective was mentioned.

[Bakim0n0]

Slightly paraphrased, but if you have all seen the livestream, then that there, is the reason they applied this fix.

In the livestream, they said they needed to restrict rushers. This isn't just because they disapprove or whatever, but because there's been a lot of complaints about people who hate rushers. Specially in pubs.

DE has said that they love people who rush through rooms, killing stuff and going to their goal.

But people who just dash through the whole map, to the objective, without killing anything? Scott or Steve have said on a livestream that this is quite boring and not at all their vision for the game.

So, tl;dr. Super rushing, no killing is not how they want you to play the game and they made it harder to do so.

If you want to have no kills, wait for the Stealth update they talked about. I think a stealth objective was mentioned.

2 things...

1.) This change does not, by any means, do anything to actually stop people from rushing past stuff and not killing. Besides that, you're never, ever going to be able to FORCE people to act a certain way shy of making that behavior impossible, which would have far greater collateral damage and create a much bigger problem than rushing ever was. And again, rushing is NOT harder to do now, not really.

2.) If you watch the livestreams you will also notice they specifically said there will be no "stealth update" but rather we will see stuff implemented slowly, bits at a time.

[Ghobe]

Which is fine... but not everyone does; and I think that's the point a lot of us are making. What was hurt in the game because of the way it was? What was it supposed to fix? If more advanced users can still get that high speed what was accomplished by changing it?

Lets look at this critically... People are leaving the game over this, or more specifically this was the citing incident that got them to the point where they were too annoyed with the changes to continue.

So, basically, it alienated some players, didn't fix the speed differences (actually in a lot of ways it made it worse) it negatively effected some people's play style and what's the upside really?

I get that with every choice there will be people who like it and people who don't... but really, what's the up-side to making the game less fun for people, especially your dedicated long-term people? Newer players and players who preferred a more slow / methodical play style didn't feel this change nearly as hard as those of us attracted to the super high speed flow of the game; and those people don't need to re-learn months of habits and muscle memory to adapt to a change they disliked in the first place.

can you compensate for it? Absolutely. Is it more tedious and less fun? Yes, granted the latter part is subjective.

I could see a mod being created for it. Which I'm sure you want to attack me about, but hold on. The whole point of mods is to change your playstyle or strengthen it or even just cover your weaknesses. We've already seen a quite few of these playstyle changing ones come into the game(Handspring and Shock Absorbers for example). Now you can be on the bandwagon that "handspring should be baseline", but I'd rather see things like this stick to mods so that we can have actual customization beyond "redirection, vitality, flow, streamline, and your abilities" with builds only varying in what you spend your final 2 mod capacity on.

[Bakim0n0]

I could see a mod being created for it. Which I'm sure you want to attack me about, but hold on. The whole point of mods is to change your playstyle or strengthen it or even just cover your weaknesses. We've already seen a quite few of these playstyle changing ones come into the game(Handspring and Shock Absorbers for example). Now you can be on the bandwagon that "handspring should be baseline", but I'd rather see things like this stick to mods so that we can have actual customization beyond "redirection, vitality, flow, streamline, and your abilities" with builds only varying in what you spend your final 2 mod capacity on.

I wouldn't attack you over it actually... It's not a terrible idea and makes movement more accessible to those who want it.

I will, however, stop you in regards to playstyle changes... handspring and shock absorbers don't actually change gameplay much if at all but I have never felt like either should be baseline. Neither of those mods influence anything but getting knocked down... and at best they shave fractions of seconds off your total down-time as compared to being a pervasive and harsh diminishing return on momentum that actually influences a variety of actions.

The two changes, since 6.5, that have actually significantly changed playstyle is the nerfing of slide mechanics and the automatic flip on climbs (the latter of which was very hastily slapped on and causes a lot of problems elsewhere including halting normal movement and trying to auto-flip on random elements that aren't right like the occasional attempt to flip up onto a cable that normally would've just slightly altered your jump) Both of which happened very recently and has a lot of veteran players up in arms, many of which have just quietly left rather than make a stink about it.

[theammostore]

Yeah, and that's what I meant more... you didn't use it the way I was talking about specifically... Which is largely my own fault for not communicating it.

It's not so much that I give even half a crap about people not being able to zoom around by spamming slide attack... it's moreso that it hampered my own and several other's melee style of chaining moves together that involved conserving momentum to maximize melee mobility... As a player who, outside of leveling frames, generally likes to do to bulk of their killing up close and personal... it's a bitter pill to swallow when you were used to getting 5-6m out of that 2nd chained slide in a combo and only moving 1-2m... Yeah, it can be compensated for (not that difficult to) but it doesn't FEEL good to do so.

Oh, okay. Yeah. I see what you mean by that. Yeah, I was mainly talking about people who super-speed a level flipping like a flipped mousetrap with a motor. For melee combat, I never really used slides much other than when entering a fist fight, or as escape options as I said before, so all of that didn't really mean much to me. I never chained melee hits and such in the way you are describing.

 

I see your point, and rest my argument. :P