Maxed Out Guns&warframes Too Powerfull? How Is This Going To Affect The The Possible Hc-Mode?

[Milkin]

This guestion rosed in my head after i duoed tier 3 tower couple of times - very, very easily with my friend with weapons&warframes who have never even seen formas. I think I could even solo tier 3, but Im not doing so atm because we get more chanses to get those nice items if we use all our keys together.

 

Obviously, players need to do lot's and lots of grinding if they want to get these fully modded & maxed out weapons&warframes, with potatos and formas, BUT this really wakes up some questions.

 

How is DE going to increase difficulty now?

 

- If they make content where players REALLY NEED these EXTREMELY powerfull weapons it means, players have to grind(again) lot's of weapon&warframe levels + grind/buy potatoes&formas. (This is most likely why i didn't like the formas in the first place. Second thing is DE can't anymore really take polarities in the account when balancing- / crafting new weapons, because it really doesn't matter if they have 0 or 2 polarities at the start, because you can just grind till you have fully modded weapon. = Starting polarities mean nothing atm, except the time you have to put in when grinding them)

 

- Other possibility is, if they don't make content where you need these EXTREMELY powerfull weapons&warframes, the whole game will be easy for any decent gamer who is willing to grind for more power.. well, atm you dont even have to grind, because tower is too easy.(pls, don't put some kind of S#&$ on me where you mention you could go to high level areas with lvl 1 frame, lvl 1 weapons, and shoot enemies for 3hours to kill them) No offence thou, i just wanted to mention this ^^

 

How to fix this problem?

 

- Maybe DE can make fights more interesting with different types of enemies, better artificial intelligence etc. (Which they promised already in the streams)

 

- Maybe in hc-mode your formas doesn't count towards the mods you can put in your warframes&weapons, AND you could only use these powerfull weapons in so called "normal-mode", if you want to play with them.(I could 

not atm come up with better solution because i think, DE can't go back with formas anymore.) 

 

What are your thoughts on this? All appropriate comments are highly appreciated.

 

Kinda offtopic:

 

I think revive & lifting up downed tennos is too strong, and way too easily abused atm (not that there would be need for it thou),

 

Why i think this is simply because u get full health after somebody picks you up = meaning you can wait till somebody shoots you down in the safe area, and then your friend just picks you up, and whola, you are at full health again.

 

Pretty easy option to fix this, (which could be atleast worth a try) would be possibly that reviving a player needs an 'one use only item' which costs like 1000credits to buy, and it would NOT give ur team mate full health, instead something like 10-20%. To make this thing work, reviving would use the item first from ur FRIENDS inventory, but if he would not have that item in hes inventory there would be some kind of mark there, that you would know he doesn't have it and u would be forced to use ur own item, if u wish to revive him. 

 

Or maybe there could be only medipack / level which would give tenno a chanse to revive one friend.

 

I don't know... Just something i have been thinking about too.

 

PS: To make myself kinda clear, i don't wanna mock DE for anything, just to help them improve warframe with this topic & probably incoming answer - As they kinda promised there would be harder content for harder players. Or hc-mode or something.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Milkin

[MetalGerbil]

difficult content is.... difficult to make :/

i think its doing to end up like going form wave 10 to wave 20 in defence. alot more health and alot more damage. but im hoping they can add something to the mix like new abilities or mob behavior. improving AI would be grand but i wouldnt expect it. thats harder than all other possible options combined.

game is easy if you are smart about it. soloing tier III is easy actually.

[Milkin]

game is easy if you are smart about it. soloing tier III is easy actually.

 

MetalGerbil, yeah i think that's they way it is. ( i just didn't want to hammer my braces before i actually did it).

[TehLaggy]

More challenges that are dangerous regardless of how twinked/modded out you are - terrain hazards, enemies using spells and abilities that turn people's insane DPS against them (imagine the hilarity if a boss had Link and used it on your party), ramping up enemy offense to be legitimately scary (where the difference between having a maxxed Redirection/Vitality or not can be measured in seconds or less - you want to avoid being hit no matter how much health you have).

 

What they should NOT do is turn enemies into bullet sponges that require you to bring tons of damage to kill enemies in a sane time, i.e. current "difficulty" of T3 and high wave defense. Lech Kril isn't the best design ever, but he at least mitigates how much impact overmodded weaponry does on him, as opposed to many bosses that just die before they can do anything.

[Winterbraid]

Difficulty is always subjective, no matter how you look at it. And the thing about the 'endgame' of any game is that usually around 10-20% of all players will ever reach it, making it even more subjective.

For instance, if I play every day and have spent dozens, if not hundreds, of hours (that's how long it takes some people just to loot a Split Chamber) making just one powerful gun, then in my opinion it *should* be powerful and make the majority of the game easy, and anything less than that would leave me feeling cheated.

For the same reason, a special mode that takes away some of my effort put into upgrading my gear would annoy me to a great extent. I already find the 'ice hazard' missions one of the most annoying things in Warframe, as they essentially take away part of the effort I put into upgrading my Redirection mod. I've fused hundreds of mods into this stuff and leveled it from 0 to 30 over and over to make it good, so I'd like it to stay good, thank you very much.

Meanwhile the majority of the players will just poke around for a couple hours a week and likely quit before they get around to having all those fancy mods and polarities. From my personal experience, the percentage of the players 'willing to grind' is always smaller than what one would expect, so I don't see why they shouldn't be gratified sufficiently.

I've soloed a bunch of T3s to get my Prime Receiver, it was a rather tedious experience and I agree that they should focus on making the upcoming content difficult in different ways, although the issue I had was less with the enemy health (which dwindled reasonably quickly against my two-polarity Gorgon) and more with the incoming DPS and perfect accuracy of enemies versus my shields and HP (which both reach a 'soft cap' pretty quickly compared to weapons).

The game overall suffers from the syndrome where all those fancy wall runs, slides, flips and rolls don't really do much while you're busy hiding behind cover waiting for your shields to regenerate. The aimbotting enemies and the lack of real integration of parkour into the combat are what I would touch upon, not the weapon, module or Forma mechanics (which I consider to be one of the most engaging aspects of the game and its main source of staying on my hard drive).

Edited June 20, 2013 by Winterbraid

[General-Griffin]

Difficulty is always subjective, no matter how you look at it. And the thing about the 'endgame' of any game is that usually around 10-20% of all players will ever reach it, making it even more subjective.

For instance, if I play every day and have spent dozens, if not hundreds, of hours (that's how long it takes some people just to loot a Split Chamber) making just one powerful gun, then in my opinion it *should* be powerful and make the majority of the game easy, and anything less than that would leave me feeling cheated.

For the same reason, a special mode that takes away some of my effort put into upgrading my gear would annoy me to a great extent. I already find the 'ice hazard' missions one of the most annoying things in Warframe, as they essentially take away part of the effort I put into upgrading my Redirection mod. I've fused hundreds of mods into this stuff and leveled it from 0 to 30 over and over to make it good, so I'd like it to stay good, thank you very much.

Meanwhile the majority of the players will just poke around for a couple hours a week and likely quit before they get around to having all those fancy mods and polarities. From my personal experience, the percentage of the players 'willing to grind' is always smaller than what one would expect, so I don't see why they shouldn't be gratified sufficiently.

I've soloed a bunch of T3s to get my Prime Receiver, it was a rather tedious experience and I agree that they should focus on making the upcoming content difficult in different ways, although the issue I had was less with the enemy health (which dwindled reasonably quickly against my two-polarity Gorgon) and more with the incoming DPS and perfect accuracy of enemies versus my shields and HP (which both reach a 'soft cap' pretty quickly compared to weapons).

The game overall suffers from the syndrome where all those fancy wall runs, slides, flips and rolls don't really do much while you're busy hiding behind cover waiting for your shields to regenerate. The aimbotting enemies and the lack of real integration of parkour into the combat are what I would touch upon, not the weapon, module or Forma mechanics (which I consider to be one of the most engaging aspects of the game and its main source of staying on my hard drive).   PS, I love willies

 

Spot on dude. Spot on. What is the point in me getting gear and spending all this time getting said gear if when I get it I can't use it the way I want it or use it on tougher enemies then what is the point in even leveling at all but this is pointless when the bloke above me put it so well. We get what your saying but what we need is more content made for higher levels and for that the dev's just need time. 

[TheCometCE]

A few of my ideas on what to do to make it more difficult beyond health:

 

-Healer type enemies, perhaps medics for grineer, some kind of engineer for corpus, and more durable healers for infested. This would increase health artificially but promote prioritizing targets

 

-Mortar style attacks, would keep players on the move if certain attacks are fired at a high arc and can be read before impact, which would cause teams to have to move from cover to cover more often (these would have to be kept to a minimum though, only 1-3 at a time perhaps)

 

-General increase in enemy numbers

 

-Health link boss-type enemies (as mentioned above), would probably have to be something like 1% of damage recieved goes to targeted player, not enough to instagib them, but it prevents shields from recharging and with enough concentrated fire could even take out shields.

 

-Enemies that use stealth, having them be revealed when they enter close range (perhaps 3-5x scindo swing range), would add some more diversity and if a map is themed on them, would promote sticking close together while they are known to be on the map.

[Ghobe]

I'd just like to stop-by and say. We do not have end-game content yet. Welcome to mid-game.

[fatpig84]

Endgame content should be raids that need minimum of 25 men to perform ala WoW style amirite ?

[Jhakoon]

actually i'm easily butchering through level 4 towers, not only 3. frames and weapons at 30 but still far from being full modded, and they didnt see any forma yet, too.

trying soloing level 5 towers always ends in at least two deaths. but not because of those freaking hard guys in there, no, they're just hard enough for draining my ammo with an awesome speed. i even tried to enter with my backpack full of ammo kits... no chance. what breaks your neck is running out of bullets and going into melee combat vs ancients.

so it depends... there are some really tough places out there you better don't go alone. the only thing is the long way up to them

[Ghobe]

your neck is running out of bullets and going into melee combat vs ancients.

Step 1: Use a melee weapon that can knockdown with jump attack.

Step 2: Put freeze damage on your melee weapon.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit!

[Numot]

Enemy variety and better A.I. mechanics would go along way to making encounters more difficult.

[Jhakoon]

Step 1: Use a melee weapon that can knockdown with jump attack.

Step 2: Put freeze damage on your melee weapon.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit!

i use gram, but against 3 healers and 2 disruptors almost anything is useless. right now i'm training a trinity, that might have a chance. though warframe isn't about soloing. ^^

[Inberun]

We need tankier enemies not buffed up damage. Getting oneshotted by enemies (Defense wave 50+) without being able to retaliate is not fun.

[demonaii]

 

This guestion rosed in my head after i duoed tier 3 tower couple of times - very, very easily with my friend with weapons&warframes who have never even seen formas. I think I could even solo tier 3, but Im not doing so atm because we get more chanses to get those nice items if we use all our keys together.

 

Obviously, players need to do lot's and lots of grinding if they want to get these fully modded & maxed out weapons&warframes, with potatos and formas, BUT this really wakes up some questions.

 

How is DE going to increase difficulty now?

 

- If they make content where players REALLY NEED these EXTREMELY powerfull weapons it means, players have to grind(again) lot's of weapon&warframe levels + grind/buy potatoes&formas. (This is most likely why i didn't like the formas in the first place. Second thing is DE can't anymore really take polarities in the account when balancing- / crafting new weapons, because it really doesn't matter if they have 0 or 2 polarities at the start, because you can just grind till you have fully modded weapon. = Starting polarities mean nothing atm, except the time you have to put in when grinding them)

 

- Other possibility is, if they don't make content where you need these EXTREMELY powerfull weapons&warframes, the whole game will be easy for any decent gamer who is willing to grind for more power.. well, atm you dont even have to grind, because tower is too easy.(pls, don't put some kind of S#&$ on me where you mention you could go to high level areas with lvl 1 frame, lvl 1 weapons, and shoot enemies for 3hours to kill them) No offence thou, i just wanted to mention this ^^

 

How to fix this problem?

 

- Maybe DE can make fights more interesting with different types of enemies, better artificial intelligence etc. (Which they promised already in the streams)

 

- Maybe in hc-mode your formas doesn't count towards the mods you can put in your warframes&weapons, AND you could only use these powerfull weapons in so called "normal-mode", if you want to play with them.(I could 

not atm come up with better solution because i think, DE can't go back with formas anymore.) 

 

What are your thoughts on this? All appropriate comments are highly appreciated.

 

Kinda offtopic:

 

I think revive & lifting up downed tennos is too strong, and way too easily abused atm (not that there would be need for it thou),

 

Why i think this is simply because u get full health after somebody picks you up = meaning you can wait till somebody shoots you down in the safe area, and then your friend just picks you up, and whola, you are at full health again.

 

Pretty easy option to fix this, (which could be atleast worth a try) would be possibly that reviving a player needs an 'one use only item' which costs like 1000credits to buy, and it would NOT give ur team mate full health, instead something like 10-20%. To make this thing work, reviving would use the item first from ur FRIENDS inventory, but if he would not have that item in hes inventory there would be some kind of mark there, that you would know he doesn't have it and u would be forced to use ur own item, if u wish to revive him. 

 

Or maybe there could be only medipack / level which would give tenno a chanse to revive one friend.

 

I don't know... Just something i have been thinking about too.

 

PS: To make myself kinda clear, i don't wanna mock DE for anything, just to help them improve warframe with this topic & probably incoming answer - As they kinda promised there would be harder content for harder players. Or hc-mode or something.

 

Yes, everything is too easy.

[Ghobe]

i use gram, but against 3 healers and 2 disruptors almost anything is useless. right now i'm training a trinity, that might have a chance. though warframe isn't about soloing. ^^

Except disruptors don't appear in the void and that's what you were talking about ;p

Edited June 20, 2013 by Ghobe

[happyfunba11]

What can the devs do?

The AI will always have flaws. Players will always learn patterns and ways to take advantage. AI that can consistently beat good players would require a supercomputer and a superhuman to write it (no disrespect if a dev reads this).

Players don't want bullet sponges. Players don't want unavoidable stuns or disables (as the scorpion was for a brief period). Players don't want nerfs to their guns or frames. Players don't want sync-kills (hell no).

Without any of those options, the game is going to be easy, now and always. With frames able to turn enemies against each other or just float them there to be shot, with weapons that can ragdoll even bosses, with guns so powerful that the player is just as likely to kill his/her self as the enemy...

There is not really a way to keep everyone happy. People that want a hardcore mode tend to also want better rewards for it. If there are better rewards, everyone will want to play hardcore mode. Then as people complain and the developers appease, we end up back where we are now, and hardcore mode becomes the norm while normal becomes easy mode.

I believe that for the foreseeable future, this game will only be difficult for new players and those that choose to make it difficult by gimping themselves. And I think that is going to limit the games lifetime, unfortunately.

Edited June 20, 2013 by happyfunba11

[BadAimbot]

The solution is mods. Mods are the main source of power in this game. If they want to curb our power, they should do it via mods. Make every mod go up to level 10 and balance them accordingly. That would mean that our development would be slowed as we get higher in power, as the amount of mods we need keeps going up, and in return harder content gives us better Fusion Cores. Putting more power in higher level weapons, which people seems to be fond of, or just making new mods would cause massive power jumps when we manage to get ahold of them, which makes things a lot harder to balance properly.