Apparently...

[matrixEXO]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/when-difficult-is-fun

 

There is a part on this section where EC was talking about controls and pointed about Warframe "Shift + Ctrl + W + E" in reference to "an awesome move that you cannot execute consistently". I for one put myself in the null zone on this, anyone else?

[unmog]

Oh I havent seen that one yet, I hope DE looks at this.

[MaBucket]

It's a bit awkward but it's something that can be altered as you can change key-binds. I was baffled that they used Dark Souls as an example of a good rule-set when you get insta-gibbed by random scripted events.

[unmog]

I changed my melee to the thumb button on my mouse, still it doesnt work everytime for me. Not even sure how some people fly so far with it, completely lost me how some people do some of those sliding moves.

[Tetsmeha]

You can let go of shift though keeping it 3 keys max.

W + Shift + CTRL to W + CTRL + E it's not hard.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Tetsmeha

[Tetsmeha]

Infact you don't even need to hold 4 keys at all. You can just use SHIFT + W +CTRL and then just hold CTRL and press E

[oKibbles]

My computer allows me to hit 4 keys at once. So I simply just hit w + shift + c + e

[NotBot]

Jeez.

 

Even as someone who would've abandoned an otherwise perfect game with bad controls, the sliding spin slash is damn easy, and not a pain in the buttocks as whomever this is presents it as. Hell, I even do the proper Shift-Ctrl-W-E and it isn't remotely a challenge.

Edited June 21, 2013 by NotBot

[unmog]

Jeez.

 

Even as someone who would've abandoned an otherwise perfect game with bad controls, the sliding spin slash is damn easy, and not a pain in the buttocks as whomever this is presents it as. Hell, I even do the proper Shift-Ctrl-W-E and it isn't remotely a challenge.

Im specifically specifically of chaining slides together to move faster than running, or go into an instant slide from standing still on a pole and fly to the other side of the room with a spin slash [saw someone do this in the "gazebo room" in the void to get to the top of the roof area from the window as a trinity, flying forward like an excaliburs slash dash]

 

Some of the things I see people do, I'd be needing to see a friggen tutorial about. I thought I was pretty good at slide attacking too spinning around corners and back and forth like a yoyo hitting groups of enemies multiple times, but these kind of things are over even my head.

[Eirshy]

Aaaaand this is why I put ctrl as the crouch toggle, and *alt* as the crouch hold. That and I was using [w]-shift-space-ctrl-e for the majority of my spin slashes, since they were helercoptering in on things that were incredibly dangerous to melee (like heavy grineers with their ground pounds *not* on cooldown and ancients) and wanted they knockdown of a flying kick. I've recently learned to do it with alt for the slide.

 

 

Arguments that a computer game's controls suck are invalid if you can remap the controls. Find something that works for you, don't whine that the developer should remap your controls for you. Ctrl is traditionally crouch, shift traditionally sprint. You're allowed to have 2 buttons for each action, and there are both toggle and hold versions of run and crouch.

[Xylia]

It's a bit awkward but it's something that can be altered as you can change key-binds. I was baffled that they used Dark Souls as an example of a good rule-set when you get insta-gibbed by random scripted events.

 

Random?

 

Almost nothing in Dark Souls is Random.

 

All of the traps are always in the same place, enemies almost always do the exact same patterns over and over again, it is all about learning them.

 

The only "Randomness" that happens, is in PvP and sometimes bosses randomize their moves (but are highly telegraphed).

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I rebound darn-near everything to account for controls I'm more accustomed to.  They're largely based off the game I'm a developer for, but as modders released various tweaks to the game, many of them involving hotkeys, I became accustomed to that key configuration instead (I sometimes laugh at myself for how much my performance improves between my dev build (no mods) and public build (lots and lots and lots of UI and key mods).  Consequently, I've used the same general mapping ever since, swapping out things as needed.  For instance, in the game I dev, you can use a core for some special ability but don't have melee.  Naturally, I swapped the core with melee.  As such, the button sequence for me is now the simpler W+Shift+Mouse5+R.  No hand gets bogged down.  I'm using my left pinky, left middle, right ring, and left index.

[PositronicSpleen]

The game could use some reevaluation of the controls. I had a really hard time fitting everything I wanted on a controller, and even then I wasn't really satsified because of some of the compromises I had to make (particularly related to toggle sprint). Not that I use a controller, but this kind of ruled it out.

 

Like the idea of combining roll and sprint was a good one. The idea being that buttons can do different things when they would otherwise be useless, reducing needless complexity. Maybe holding reload could switch weapons. You can't melee while aiming, so that could be block. Or the use key could double as setting down waypoints. Another example, if you're locked out of controlling your warframe anyways, why not make the chat and inventory accessible from the ESC menu? Things like that.

 

It would also help if toggle sprint worked like it does in every other game in which it exists. #1 irritating thing for me right now.

Edited June 21, 2013 by PositronicSpleen

[Archon357]

Aaaaand this is why I put ctrl as the crouch toggle, and *alt* as the crouch hold. That and I was using [w]-shift-space-ctrl-e for the majority of my spin slashes, since they were helercoptering in on things that were incredibly dangerous to melee (like heavy grineers with their ground pounds *not* on cooldown and ancients) and wanted they knockdown of a flying kick. I've recently learned to do it with alt for the slide.

 

 

Arguments that a computer game's controls suck are invalid if you can remap the controls. Find something that works for you, don't whine that the developer should remap your controls for you. Ctrl is traditionally crouch, shift traditionally sprint. You're allowed to have 2 buttons for each action, and there are both toggle and hold versions of run and crouch.

 

Wheeee, go ALT button :D

No, really, it's often underused and it &!$$es me off when I can't bind it in some games.

Random?

 

Almost nothing in Dark Souls is Random.

 

All of the traps are always in the same place, enemies almost always do the exact same patterns over and over again, it is all about learning them.

Don't forget the extra weirdness of player messages that (potentially) warn you of traps in advance. Quite unique. "A balance of faith and wisdom is required."

... bosses randomize their moves (but are highly telegraphed).

Except Gwyn's quick sword slash combo. Gaaaaaaaaaawd I hate that move >_>

[XCodes]

I re-mapped my crouch key to my mouse for both somersault jumps and sliding spin slashes.
 

That said, I want better jumping controls in general. Holding your spacebar for an extra tenth of a second can be the difference between you doing a backflip and landing on your feet, or launching yourself across the room into a pit. Maybe switching to a slower frame than the Loki might help me learn that better, but if the Loki's insane speed is going to cause control problems then maybe it shouldn't be available as a starter frame.

[Inez]

So Penny Arcade guy, with his deep understanding of video games, hasn't learned how to remap keys?

Imo, they should stick with console games. Plenty of Warframe players have no problems consistently slide-spin-attacking.

Free pro tip for console game players who are new to pc gaming: Remap your caps lock key to CTRL using a freeware program called Keytweak. Perhaps I should email this tip to the "hardcore gamers" at Penny Arcade.

[matrixEXO]

For those repeating about binding keys being possible:

While rebinding of keys is possible, it doesn't solve the annoyance of 4 key presses of the .

 

 

For those saying that it can always be shrunk to 3 keys:

 

While you can do it, can you feel the strain of annoyance that your fingers are not having an easy time? Especially your pinky? I don't think it's a good design when my pinky feels annoyed after a while of gaming on Warframe. I think it's better if there were dual-functions with only one button. Hold spacebar while running to jump, tap when standing or running to jump; this would seem much better than the current system.

Edited June 21, 2013 by matrixEXO

[TheDeveloper]

blah blah blah

 

No one said they were pro, they play games for what it's worth. The key set-up for this game is stupid by default and of course they can change their keys, but the idea is catering to something else, ghosting and just general oversight of the default keys.

Remapping keys is one thing, but ghosting is an issue because this game's less than intuitive key map requires four hot keys which leave it incredibly prone.

And if you think this game is remotely tough, the people over at Extra Credit (who have recently joined PA and do the video segments) play GunZ the duel where "advanced combos" in that game would probably make any new player look like they're having a seizure trying to perform, including you. 

[matrixEXO]

...the people over at Extra Credit (who have recently joined PA and do the video segments)...

I doubt that, given they were around for more than 1 yr. Currently on Season 6 right now.

Edited June 21, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Mainabi]

it's easy move the melee key to a thumb button = problem solved

[matrixEXO]

it's easy move the melee key to a thumb button = problem solved

You don't get it, do you. Remapping is fine and all but the designs are just unwieldy as is. Sure, remapping will make things easier but in it's designed state (what the developers keyed the actions to), it's very bad. It also means that a lot of the controls can be further refined. Remapping is just a "lazy man" call to looking at the situation and thumb button/s are not on all mouses.

 

Try playing the game without remapping any single key for any single game. You would be able to tell if the game's control was really thought out or not then.

 

 

Remapping as a design is not what we should look at initially nor is it something we should even use that much (LoL need no remapping as example, but remapping for quick-cast of skills would improve functionality of the game rather than Alt + Q/W/E/R which is even more annoying to press in general and thus is a bad design for those keys).

 

EDIT: What I said about remapping as a "lazy man" call was towards the words telling other people that remapping the keys would solve the issue.

Edited June 21, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Mainabi]

You don't get it, do you. Remapping is fine and all but the designs are just unwieldy as is. Sure, remapping will make things easier but in it's designed state (what the developers keyed the actions to), it's very bad. It also means that a lot of the controls can be further refined. Remapping is just a "lazy man" call to looking at the situation and thumb button/s are not on all mouses.

 

Try playing the game without remapping any single key for any single game. You would be able to tell if the game's control was really thought out or not then.

 

 

Remapping as a design is not what we should look at initially nor is it something we should even use that much (LoL need no remapping as example, but remapping for quick-cast of skills would improve functionality of the game rather than Alt + Q/W/E/R which is even more annoying to press in general and thus is a bad design for those keys).

 

EDIT: What I said about remapping as a "lazy man" call was towards the words telling other people that remapping the keys would solve the issue.

I've never played a game without remapping sorry... ._. and honestly calling that as a problem is weak in my opinion, the problem in warframe is the challenge for sure,

 

it's punishing for having super high boring mobs only that's not challenge that's punishing, the problem in warframe isn't rly the controls, sure shift + ctrl + e while holding w is a tad annoying but honestly the only thing that they should change is to move the melee key to f,

 

using that control is way easier and I also think f for melee is also more used, but simply calling that the main probleme in the diffifculty in warframe.. well I don't rly think that's that right

[Krjal]

My left pinkie is pretty buff after years of shift=sprint and ctrl=crouch and I've had melee mapped to my mouse 'back' key since before Warframe existed. Never really had a problem with the controls here.

 

I mean, one of the first things I did in Warframe was remap everything but that took all of 2, maybe 3, minutes.

 

Also, E should be the 'use' key in every game :p

[matrixEXO]

I've never played a game without remapping sorry... ._. and honestly calling that as a problem is weak in my opinion, the problem in warframe is the challenge for sure,

 

it's punishing for having super high boring mobs only that's not challenge that's punishing, the problem in warframe isn't rly the controls, sure shift + ctrl + e while holding w is a tad annoying but honestly the only thing that they should change is to move the melee key to f,

 

using that control is way easier and I also think f for melee is also more used, but simply calling that the main probleme in the diffifculty in warframe.. well I don't rly think that's that right

It's not a main problem in difficulty, it's a minor issue in playability of the game. I hope I wasn't blowing it up as something it extremely huge or major.

 

Remapping keys are fine and all but it would have been much easier if you had something like "Tap space while sprinting to slide" or something that can be keyed for 2 actions, like how regular melee and charged is on the same button or how roll and sprint is also on the same button.

[SairAerwyn]

Personally, I don't feel like a change is warranted. I mean, lets break it down.

 

 (Run Key + Forward) + (Crouch Key) + (Melee Key @ Time) 

 

The only difficult point of this whole thing is Crouch, just because of the CTRL position of it by default.

 

With all the keys for the most part being adjustable, its not hard to find a good solution, plus with toggle run/toggle crouch its much simpler.  To add to this point, most people playing Warframe either have a controller, and most of these functions are ingrained in them, and the rest of us have at least one button on either side of the mouse, in most cases 2 on each side.  I wouldn't recommended ever using a scroll wheel button as it's never completely efficient. 

 

I have 2 on each side, with one being Crouch and one being "Toggle Perspective" or whatever to change the side of cover I am using.  Very useful to have a seconds notice BTW.  I don't even use the two on the right side, as they adjust mouse sensitivity on the fly, great for when you change from close up perspectives to distance when sniping for better control.

 

It's easy to run with your pinky on shift and press the side mouse button, and then E to melee (if left at default)  Even if you don't have side mouse buttons, ALT and C make excellent alternates to CTRL for crouch.  I never really felt it belonged there anyway.  Maybe a good choice for grappling hook when it shows.