Warframe, End-Game, Grinding, Skinners Box And K.i.s.

[Rottae]

Dynamic environments sounds awesome, not just the Ice levels we have at the moment together with fire levels. That coulld really give us some interesting to do in our 20th raid of the day.

Also about the ulti note, I think that most of todays ulties are blandly and boringly designed, most frames basically got a "Screwed Up" button. It helps new players to get out of stickies, but is basically a boon for a tactical end-game, because as alocrius just said, you can just run down the hallway spamming ulties. (Really looking foward to AM Frame though, that seems to be, together with vauban, the first ones to break this "rule")

Teamwork requirement in a co-operative game also needs to be a must, i really agree to you on that CH33F and creating that I personally think DE is a little scared of, what about solo players? will they not be able to see that content? is what i think they are generally thinking about that topic and I personally say this. It's fine to have a broader playerbase then what you are designing for (AKA Chess, how many play with en passant, Touch-Move etc) but you should never neglect the basic nature of the game and adhere to the core playerbase. So if the core playerbase is co-operative players. this is a must. 

 

[Phoenix86]

very well said OP, 1 of the few wall-of-text worth reading ;)

[LazerusKI]

the problem with the core mechanic, the calculations etc could be solved in a very easy way...

just give us an ingame screen wehre we can see the effect on our player.

an equipment window like we have in most MMOs, a window where we can see our player and weapon stats.

life, shield, damage, absorb...just everything that is calcualted in the background.

 

but if i remember correctly, they said in one of the streams that the UI will get a complete rework.

 

Endgame:

yes, so far its only "Endless Defense"

but hey, they are working on a story (maybe in Update 9?) and if i heard it right also on something like a Codex.

Also we will get "Void Defense" where we can controll the Traps.

Stealth will get a rework, bosses will get a rework...so...more fun

but yes, because it is PVE there is an end somewhere.

But they have planned Weekly Events (was also mentioned in the stream i think), so new things to do and to earn.

Edited June 28, 2013 by LazerusKI

[JustDont]

(Really looking foward to AM Frame though, that seems to be, together with vauban, the first ones to break this "rule")

That's a really interesting note, because Vauban's ult is an extremely obvious "oh crap" button, and he even have a secondary "oh crap" skill with his Bastille.

He's enforcing the rule, not breaking it.

[Troublechutor]

Can we just sticky a thread that reminds players that WARFRAME is an open BETA and thus is not finnished yet?

 

I'm sorry you've farmed out the game to the n'th degree and you're wondering what it all means... but the fact that your fun to work ratio has slipped isn't something that can be fixed in a beta.  

 

There is no plot.  There's very little back story (officially, 2 paragraphs) and almost nothing that implies depth to your actions.  

 

How can you ask for "end game" content where so little in the way of actual content exists at all.  What you really want is the released version of the game, me too, but its not there yet, the game is very much still in development.

 

The real problem is that because there are already ways to pay real money in this BETA, people feel like this is the content they paid for... and for all intents and purposes it is, but you really jumped the gun on it.  You paid money to shortcut a grind in a beta where part of the testing for the game was to see what people would actually pay for.  Congrats, you are a statistic.  But the act of paying for items in game and being encouraged to do so creates a false sense in the community that there shold be "more" to the game than grind/craft/repeat.  

[Rottae]

@Troublechutor

There is no reason for a game, at any stage to just be grinding for the sake of grinding. It's there only to keep people who would most likely have left now just to have something to do.

Also, it's only because it is in open beta I even wrote this, because there is actually not a problem with plot or direction that is the "problem" atm. The problem is that parts of what is core. Farming for farmings sake, as they even said in one of the livestreams IIRC, don't take my word on this they want to be part of it, which is in my opinion weird, because as they are saying, players are burning through their content just because of this. The farms they are doing atm is simply for people who wants everything to come back.

I have no problems paying money (I've done this already) for a game in beta, because i want them to be able to create and make a game that I enjoy, even if it ends up that I don't like it. I love to see new games, I love to play games, why can't my love for the game be something that keeps me playing and not just another carrot?

[ZWarhammer]

Give players with maxed gear goals beyond farming because that's clearly what they've been doing up till that point, that stuff can get boring after a while.

Edited June 28, 2013 by ZWarhammer

[Rottae]

@JustDont

Now that I've had the chance to play around with vauban, i totally agree. On paper it didn't look like it, but afterwards. Yes!

[JustDont]

Now that I've had the chance to play around with vauban, i totally agree. On paper it didn't look like it, but afterwards. Yes!

On the topic of skills, it's kind of obvious there will be LOTS of such (a big red "oh crap I messed up" button) abilities. At the very least it would be fine if they just keep them non-repetitive and at minimum. Slash Dash of Excalibur is such a skill (not his ult due to very long animation), but it feels fine because it's an original enough skill, even though Rhino has another copy of it. But the amount of "deal damage / stun mobs in a radius" skills is already way too large, and they give quite a noticeable feeling of repetitiveness.

 

PS: Of course it's cool that we have quite creative abilities such as Banshee's sonar or Nyx's mind control. However, it's understandable that the total amount of "really special" effects between mods (i.e. puncture mods add an interesting tactical option, even though they are poorly balanced at the moment) and 4 abilities per warframe will be kind of limited. So personally I'm fine even with quite a few of "deal damage" skill variants, as long as they are different enough in graphics and finer execution details.

[Troublechutor]

@Troublechutor

There is no reason for a game, at any stage to just be grinding for the sake of grinding. It's there only to keep people who would most likely have left now just to have something to do.

Also, it's only because it is in open beta I even wrote this, because there is actually not a problem with plot or direction that is the "problem" atm. The problem is that parts of what is core. Farming for farmings sake, as they even said in one of the livestreams IIRC, don't take my word on this they want to be part of it, which is in my opinion weird, because as they are saying, players are burning through their content just because of this. The farms they are doing atm is simply for people who wants everything to come back.

I have no problems paying money (I've done this already) for a game in beta, because i want them to be able to create and make a game that I enjoy, even if it ends up that I don't like it. I love to see new games, I love to play games, why can't my love for the game be something that keeps me playing and not just another carrot?

You don't have to grind just to grind... grinding in warframe is the alternative to paying plat.  Its more of an incentive to get off the treadmill/skinnerbox than being there just for the sake of it.  What you are saying, without realizing it, is that the game is working as designed, but not to your satisfaction.

 

My point about the game being in beta is that you're talking about it as if it were done.  Also, that you seem to have the same mistaken idea that many people on the forums share that the end game for warframe needs something added now or the game will lose players.  The fact is that the game is barely off the ground.  Sure, what we have in front of us is fun and compelling enough to warrent quite a bit of time investment, but if you're paying money to DE to shortcut the farm element, then you are only validating that the game is ready to make money even in its bare-bones state.  Complaining that the late game doesn't exist is actually just you realizing that there is very little in the beta that resembles a released product... the progression toward a late game isn't even hinted at by unlocking gear and opening up the star map, but you get there and wonder where the game went... what is it you expected?

 

So, the requests for "end game" content or special progression missions that reveal some lore as mentioned in the OP as opposed to grinding/farming ammount to requests for "release level" content, which a BETA isn't going to have, because ITS A BETA!

[Reichmar]

On the topic of skills, it's kind of obvious there will be LOTS of such (a big red "oh crap I messed up" button) abilities. At the very least it would be fine if they just keep them non-repetitive and at minimum. Slash Dash of Excalibur is such a skill (not his ult due to very long animation), but it feels fine because it's an original enough skill, even though Rhino has another copy of it. But the amount of "deal damage / stun mobs in a radius" skills is already way too large, and they give quite a noticeable feeling of repetitiveness.

 

PS: Of course it's cool that we have quite creative abilities such as Banshee's sonar or Nyx's mind control. However, it's understandable that the total amount of "really special" effects between mods (i.e. puncture mods add an interesting tactical option, even though they are poorly balanced at the moment) and 4 abilities per warframe will be kind of limited. So personally I'm fine even with quite a few of "deal damage" skill variants, as long as they are different enough in graphics and finer execution details.

 

Skills are getting overhauled in U9 for most frames, as DE has said. Just a friendly reminder! I'm assuming its to not only balance but also create more uniqueness instead of just press 4 to kill everyone (but in different colors...).

 

Anyways, back on topic. I totally understand the argument that "hey noob this is BETA, you can't expect stuff to be perfect in BETA!" That is very much the reason why I decided to support DE financially, as many others have. We know that the game is being made before our eyes and we want to help make sure that they have the resources to do so.

 

What folks in this thread are discussing (correct me if I'm wrong) is that while we know that DE is working on stuff, the fact that we don't have a clue as to what we can expect reduces us to only focus on the mundane, repetitive tasks that we currently have. Now, they obviously can't leak out a ton of details, but they could allude to their general plans for endgame -- just anything to keep players interested in the game, instead of them getting bored and leaving for something else.

 

I fully support DE's development goals, and I know that they'll deliver. But not too many folks can have the same confidence in a developer and NOT leave as soon as they get bored. Breadcrumbs help.

 

I'm sure that DE will discuss this more with U9, so these concerns will start to be addressed then.

[kskg]

+1 to Rottae

Edited June 28, 2013 by kskg

[Rottae]

You don't have to grind just to grind... grinding in warframe is the alternative to paying plat.  Its more of an incentive to get off the treadmill/skinnerbox than being there just for the sake of it.  What you are saying, without realizing it, is that the game is working as designed, but not to your satisfaction.

 

Maybe it's just not up to my satisfaction, but somewhere, somehow, the game shouldn't be ALL about grinding. As you said this is a beta, but it's an OPEN beta. People are trying the game out right now and need to be enjoyed, the game is all well and fun to play for an hour, but after that it's just repeating itself, you might be killing another enemy, doing another mission, but you will already have done that in about the first 4 or 5 hours of gameplay.

The more and more you make people repeat the same thing, the more and more of a task instead of a way to spread enjoyment it becomes, a job can be fullfilling and fun at first, but if it is a repetetive job, it will quickly become "saturated".

 

This also applies to games, playing 2 or 3 missions is a fun process, playing 35 Vor runs for 10 morphics is not. (not that Vor runs are the only way to get morphics, but it is one of the most "safer" farms in this game)

[Troublechutor]

I think I've got about 200 hours invested in the game already... most of that time has been "grinding" because I'm trying to steath play (or was, I'm kinda past that now) as much as possible, and this requires being over-farmed for the planets I'm on, which means I can't progress as fast as many players for the same time spent in game.

 

I figure I've got about another 3 or 4 weeks at this pace before I've got full potato and proper polarized gear (including my sentinal) and I'll probably grind up another sentinal just because.

 

At no time have I said to myself "this is just not fun" because I've still got 3 more planets, the void, 1 frame, and 10 weapons left to play around with.  However, when I do complete all these in-game tasks, I'm just going to put the game down until they release more content or patch something in an interesting way.  I'm not going to come to the forums and demand "content" added to the beta, because the content is there for the release product. What I have, endless combat with the same 3 weapons until I've hit max power, is still enough to keep me engaged and having fun.  Farming vor for mophics?  Hell, I get mats just from my random running in circles... I'm farming vor for stalker aggro, and farming stalkers for dread, and then I'm farming up dread to rank 30 and 4 or so forma.... I've got lots of pulls at the slot machine to go, and the pulls are still fun to me because I'm not even done unlocking the star map yet.

 

The point I'm trying to make (although poorly) is that you've finished the game.  Its done.  There's nothing more to do.  What you are asking for is some reason to keep playing.  Sorry bud, its not there.  Unless you can invent your own challenges, you're probably better off spending your time in another game.  I know you really like WF, and you don't want to move on unless you have to, but the dev team isn't likely to put any more challenge in the game until they have finished the framework.  This is why you've got no voice acting to speak of, almost no models, place-holder cinematics, and half baked mission structure.  Almost everything about the game is RNG, you're playing a ninja-themed slot machine.  The goal is to hit jackpots until the game has fed you all the goodies.  

 

If you've had all the fun there is to have with what is in the game right now, move on.  Come back when something changes, but demanding DE add content to the game to prevent player loss is silly... the game is under construction, that content you demand is being worked on (I hope) and when it comes out, every one of the quitters will come back to see it in its full glory.

[Rottae]

@Troublechuter

I think we have been misinterpreting eachothers. I'm not demanding new content, I'm not demanding anything. I'm just giving my 2 cents on a game and how I would improve it. Is this wrong, I'm also backing it up with some facts and what I have noticed is in the game atm? Aren't this an open beta just because they want feedback from their playerbase?

I think we really need to add our feedback, because if we cannot add feedback, why have feedback threads?

You're talking about a ninja-themed slot machine, I am a big fan of how they are doing RNG in this game, I like how that is their focus and that we as players doesn't need to follow a structured curve of Hours/Content. But lets take a step back here.

This games core is Ninjas in Space that kill Space-marines and Random techno dudes with guns and swords. How do you make this core, the strongest and most fun experience there can be? Is this by pumping in hour after hour of required material farm for getting a schythe that was just released or by building a interactive world with dynamic features, enemies that are using advanced tactics, bosses with something else then a sign saying "I got 100,000 health" and maybe only 6 different guns, 4 different pistols, 5 melee weapons.

We as gamers are starting to become greedy kids, developers need to create weapons so we gamers can experience something new and we want it now. But what I really want is a game that we can enjoy with a minimum of things, that it doesn't take hours followed by hours to get your +3 bow of fiery might so that they get the time to create funnier and more immersive content. I would more then gladly be a founder for warframe, even if we didnt have throwing weapons, bows, throwing daggers and they were talking more to us as a community about what are we doing to increase the games "fun"

[Troublechutor]

I think the tone of the OP is that you're bored with the game and want it to be more fun.  To get to the fun, you want DE to impliment new features, add depth, give us meaningful choices... that sort of thing.  I TOTALLY AGREE!

 

Where we differ is on the timing.  I get the impression you want these added to the beta to give you a reason to play now that you've recognized the grind for what it is.  Granted, I'd like the beta to be deeper and more entertaining too, but the point of the beta isn't to show off the release-version content but to stress test the systems and features of the game as it develops.

 

In other words, we are pushing buttons and breaking things, DE is watching, fixing, and expanding... but we are still just in the nuts and bolts stage.  Your suggestions for what would make the game great are all good, but they are more in line with a post-beta product.  What I'm advocating is patience, not silence.  :)

Edited June 28, 2013 by Troublechutor

[Rottae]

Agreed! I think being in beta is where the game can show off what the game developers have envisioned, but there will be new content added that is not core content. I might that I'm just considering this to be an Alphaish stage product atm because it doesn't feel like the core is the best it can be. 

When a core is finished, one can start on details. New frames and weapons are definetly details. Why do we keep getting these when we already have a large amount of fun weapons, but the core is "suffering" is although beyond me.

[JustDont]

When a core is finished, one can start on details. New frames and weapons are definetly details. Why do we keep getting these when we already have a large amount of fun weapons, but the core is "suffering" is although beyond me.

Because it keeps many players hooked?

It is surely not the best theoretical approach, but the alternative (focus only on major features, which will surely first come off as quite rough, like Dojo) may lead to many people just putting the game on shelf with a dismissive "okay, chime in when you are finished, I may give it another try then".

 

I'm no stranger to Kickstarter and especially video games on Kickstarter, and I know for a fact that it is EXTREMELY hard to enjoy the game when developers are completely focused on core gameplay while neglecting everything else. Sure, one day they'll finish with it, then add some layers of polish, then it'll start being quite nice and fun -- but before that the experience with "barebone" game is usually horrible (unless you are more of a tester than player).

[Rottae]

And that is exactly what we are atm, We are testers, not gamers. :)

[Buddlschlumpf]

To the simplicity argument: I don't think that the current damage system is that complicated. Once you know how it works, it's pretty straight forward. But it's just not written down anymore. Warframe desperately needs a better UI (and afaik DE knows that). Each weapon needs to state its current damage values. Base damage (and type of base damage) and the damage of each element determined by the current mod set. If you see the changes in your weapon's damage when switching around mods, it'll be easy to understand.

[Rottae]

+1 to Buddlschlumpf! :) That is what is needed currently, All sorts of info in the game. But there currently are, so bringing it up atm is actually necessery (Most likely they know about it, but as I said, it removes "casual" players from learning how their brand new thing works)