Why Are People Tolerating The Fact That Prime Variants Are Direct Upgrades To Their Counterparts?

[Winterbraid]

Latron Prime is difficult to obtain compared to Latron. Of course it's easy if you have others carry you through T3 missions, but using that logic you could say that every weapon in this game is easy to get and as such nothing should be better than the starting Lato or MK1.

 

Also no, a flat improvement of 12.5% more damage and 2.5% base crit chance isn't significant, not with the way this game scales. Enemy levels vary even within a single mission, so you encounter an enemy that's a couple levels above the average and the advantage of your Prime gets balanced out.

 

The fact that something slightly better came out doesn't mean that the good has suddenly stopped being good - if not for anything else, then solely due to the fact that you need the good to be able to obtain the better.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Winterbraid

[SnokyoDrift]

I will put this in very simple terms for the logically challenged person who implied that I was a rich kid.

 

A f2p player who sees a potato once in a blue moon will cry far more than a paid player when a straight upgrade version of his weapon comes out. A f2p player who must grind T3s for forma blueprints will cry far more when an identical weapon comes out that is equal to his investment.

 

Also no, a flat improvement of 12.5% more damage and 2.5% base crit chance isn't significant, not with the way this game scales. Enemy levels vary even within a single mission, so you encounter an enemy that's a couple levels above the average and the advantage of your Prime gets balanced out.

Could you please point out the part where the ordinary Latron suddenly becomes immune to this increase of a couple of levels while the Latron Prime suffers? This is the exact fallacy in "oh X performs extremely well in Kiste? well see how it does in T3!!!!!"

 

The fact that something slightly better came out doesn't mean that the good has suddenly stopped being good - if not for anything else, then solely due to the fact that you need the good to be able to obtain the better.

If people truly believe this, then I've found the problem. You need a little bit of patience to obtain the clan weapons. You need nothing noteworthy to be able to obtain the Latron Prime.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Tryysaeder

[MisterG]

I think the best way to make weapons (for ANY game) is sidegrade, so it's more about personal preference.

 

Imagine for every weapon, there are 100pts the devs can use. This would mean that nothing is flat out "better", just different. 

 

Personally I think the "prime versions" should just be "different" rather than better, so more damage, slower speed .

 

The problem the OP is describing is what happens when one weapon is better in every way than another, that makes the first one pointless.

[elindred]

I think there should be an option to supercharge a Prime warframe/weapon by cannibalizing a leveled version of the basic item. That way your basic item isn't totally useless.

[LazyKnight]

I played games like MMO and RPG too long, I do even blink when I see that prime weapons are better. If it only a two tier system of normal/prime and ones only slightly better it not game breaking. It would be if it was a difference like it is in Vindictus of going from level 60 weapon to level 80 that is a massive difference in power.

 

I have used Latron/Latron prime and Excalibur/prime as well frost/prime It not that big of a difference at best just a slight damage and critical hit bonus on the weapon. Most people that get Latron prime do not even use it at 60 slots and with enough forma to even see any quantifiable improvement over the stock a Latron.

Edited June 29, 2013 by LazyKnight

[TheDoctah]

Many of my brain cells were lost and my eyes are forever burned after reading the op's post.

[krisp]

I agree for the Latron Prime. Not so much for anything else (because the founder weapons are hopefully a done deal and Reaper Prime doesn't have a real counterpart), though ever since they buffed access to the void, getting normal Frost seems under-incentivized.

 

Latron Prime however sticks out like a sore thumb. It's a straight-up progression element in a system that shouldn't have one. I like the Latron more than the Prime and considered getting it, but since I can easily get the Prime and it's straight-up better I feel like I'm gimping myself. I SHOULD NOT BE FEELING TORN ABOUT THIS.

 

 

From the sounds of this, you're a master founder pack owner who hasn't had to work for a single weapon in his entire time playing Warframe ("This opens the future up for a scenario where a person has invested quite a bit of platinum on a weapon"), and is now miffed that there are several weapons that are only attainable through hard work.

 

 

If that would be true, he would be complaining about clan weapons. You're horribly missing his point and making unfounded assumptions.

 

Many of my brain cells were lost and my eyes are forever burned after reading the op's post.

You must have a tremendous weakness to common sense.

[ASH_PRIME]

Its NOT really a big deal is it?  theres only ONE void prime weapon in the game right now which is the Latron Prime

its also nothing that cant be fixed in a patch... just as even the Lato Prime and Vandals have been tweaked over time i am sure the normal latty will be too

perhaps it will have a slightly increased fire rate or something to bring it up in line with the prime...

if you have a Latron that is formaed and modded correctly its NOT really much of a difference anyway...ya still gunna be one shotting all low level enemies anyway and 6-10 shotting advanced ancients!

 

[LazyKnight]

I agree for the Latron Prime. Not so much for anything else (because the founder weapons are hopefully a done deal and Reaper Prime doesn't have a real counterpart), though ever since they buffed access to the void, getting normal Frost seems under-incentivized.

 

Latron Prime however sticks out like a sore thumb. It's a straight-up progression element in a system that shouldn't have one. I like the Latron more than the Prime and considered getting it, but since I can easily get the Prime and it's straight-up better I feel like I'm gimping myself. I SHOULD NOT BE FEELING TORN ABOUT THIS.

 

 

 

 

If that would be true, he would be complaining about clan weapons. You're horribly missing his point and making unfounded assumptions.

 

You must have a tremendous weakness to common sense.

Play Vindictus when it was stuck on the level 60 content, everything was a useless side grade and there was no point even getting new gear or playing. There are an entire set of problem in a side-grade only game that could make for a very long and thick wall of text.

[krisp]

Play Vindictus when it was stuck on the level 60 content, everything was a useless side grade and there was no point even getting new gear or playing. There are an entire set of problem in a side-grade only game that could make for a very long and thick wall of text.

Warframe doesn't have that problem. Weapons and warframes are diverse enough that the various gameplay styles they promote do not condone a gear-based progression system.

 

Not to say there shouldn't be some sort of progression. There already is. Just leave weapons out of it.

[LazyKnight]

Warframe doesn't have that problem. Weapons and warframes are diverse enough that the various gameplay styles they promote do not condone a gear-based progression system.

 

Not to say there shouldn't be some sort of progression. There already is. Just leave weapons out of it.

The people in just about every game I have ever played do mission to get new weapon. Without a carrot and stick this game will always have a feeling of emptiness that is plaguing the current stage of beta Warframe. They shouldn't be putting new weapon in the market place either that is a wasted opportunity to extend the game play. Really logging on to buy a weapon see if it is fun log off, will not exactly keep people playing more than a day after new weapons come out. Look at how many people were running Void to get those two weapons and invested a lot of time and/or money to do so.

 

This isn't a pvp game making all weapons side grade will leave us with only the option of doing mission for Dojo improvements or for mod so you can clear a mission faster. Mission are totally pointless even with the Warframe Blue prints as the carrot and that needs to be fixed. This is a real issue this game need high end goal and weapon are the easiest and historically effective way of keeping player retention.

Edited June 29, 2013 by LazyKnight

[tgipier]

I like to have direct upgrades in a game instead of just side grades. The fact is, latron prime is harder to get than latron. The game is consistantly being updated, and things like this is gonna happen. Not a big deal for me, just do a bit of research before buying. 

[krisp]

The people in just about every game I have ever played do mission to get new weapon. Without a carrot and stick this game will always have a feeling of emptiness that is plaguing the current stage of beta Warframe. They shouldn't be putting new weapon in the market place either that is a wasted opportunity to extend the game play. Really logging on buy weapon see if it is fun log off will not exactly keep people playing more than a day after new weapons come out. Look at how many people were running Void to get those two weapons and invested a lot of time and money to do so.

 

This isn't a pvp game making all weapons side grade will leave us with only the option of doing mission for Dojo improvements or for mod so you can clear a mission faster,mission are totally pointless even with the war frame Blue prints as the carrot. This is a real issue this game need high end goal and weapon are the easiest and historically effective way of keeping player retention.

That's all well and good except Warframe works differently from your average MMO.

 

In an MMO you're locked into a certain class that uses all weapons in the same way, possibly with minor variations. In this game, your style of weapon use is dictated by your equipped weapon. And unlike other MMOs, there are a lot of other factors that go into weapons than just models and numbers. You have sound assets, recoil, crit stats and unique effects. Phasing out old weapons to never be used again as you get better and better upgrades isn't a very good way of keeping good weapon variety and promoting multiple playstyles.

 

In this case, Warframe is more akin to Dark Souls in that a weapon you use dictates a big chunk of your playstyle and the moves you settle into when you utilize it. And there's a reason each weapon in Dark Souls is made to be situationally viable and/or at least have one drawback to its seemingly inferior variant. And yet, you don't stick to the shortsword all through your playthrough because that's not how people play videogames.

 

There needs to be an endgame, I agree. Or as you call it, a carrot on a stick. I just vehemently object to caving in and using weapons (that, by the way, already have a significant progression system attached that invites people to spend huge amounts of time in customizing them) for that purpose. To put it simply, if they release a Snipetron with 125 base damage and .5 less reload time tomorrow, I quit.

Edited June 29, 2013 by krisp

[LazyKnight]

That's all well and good except Warframe works differently from your average MMO.

 

In an MMO you're locked into a certain class that uses all weapons in the same way, possibly with minor variations. In this game, your style of weapon use is dictated by your equipped weapon. And unlike other MMOs, there are a lot of other factors that go into weapons than just models and numbers. You have sound assets, recoil, crit stats and unique effects. Phasing out old weapons to never be used again as you get better and better upgrades isn't a very good way of keeping good weapon variety and promoting multiple playstyles.

 

In this case, Warframe is more akin to Dark Souls in that a weapon you use dictates a big chunk of your playstyle and the moves you settle into when you utilize it. And there's a reason each weapon in Dark Souls is made to be situationally viable and/or at least have one drawback to its seemingly inferior variant. And yet, you don't stick to the shortsword all through your playthrough because that's not how people play videogames.

 

There needs to be an endgame, I agree. Or as you call it, a carrot on a stick. I just vehemently object to caving in and using weapons (that, by the way, already have a significant progression system attached that invites people to spend huge amounts of time in customizing them) for that purpose. To put it simply, if they release a Snipetron with 125 base damage and .5 less reload time tomorrow, I quit.

It would be far smarter on DE part to make an upgrade system where you get the stock version and upgrade it to prime version(keep your catalyst and refund forma if used). That would fix the issue as long as prime weapon were obtainable in game without platinum. Really DE has so many option of customizing of appearance in this game they could just leave weapons as part of core gameplay to keep player retention.

 

In Monster Hunter freedom unite I think I had nearly every weapon possible upgraded along with all armor, it is a good way to keep people busy for an incredible amount of time

Edited June 29, 2013 by LazyKnight

[krisp]

It would be far smarter on DE part to make an upgrade system where you get the stock version and upgrade it to prime version(keep your catalyst and refund forma if used). That would fix the issue as long as prime weapon were obtainable in game without platinum. Really DE has so many option of customizing of appearance in this game they could just leave weapons as part of core gameplay to keep player retention.

The Forma system already does something like that. Aside from the overlap, upgrading a weapon to Prime necessitates higher-level content, which also needs higher-level rewards. It's a decent idea, but it brings in the problem of power creep.

[LazyKnight]

The Forma system already does something like that. Aside from the overlap, upgrading a weapon to Prime necessitates higher-level content, which also needs higher-level rewards. It's a decent idea, but it brings in the problem of power creep.

Forma is boring system that I wish they hadn't used. I stick 1-5 on weapon and it doesn't seem like progression at all just makes me get 4-6 more mod points per use. I would rather upgrade a weapon to a new appearance and slight boost in power.  This game has no scaling at all or point and power creep really requires something that you are measuring the weapon against. The mod system is also a dead end system because it universally makes all weapons within that class progress at the same rate. Get you mods your done essential for all weapons in that class.

[fatfree]

If you think that obtaining the Prime weapons is hard work after the defence table reward patch, you are not mature or skilled enough for this thread and your posts are deemed irrelevant.

What do you do when no one agrees with your asinine point? Call them immature and unskilled (and logically challenged), that's some good ad hominem you've got going there.

I'm going to put down some hard facts here: the majority of the players either don't care about the Latron Prime being more powerful or support it. A very small minority think it should be nerfed, and it will be very unlikely (and disappointing) if DE caves to minority pressure. And that, OP, deems your post "irrelevant."

Edited June 29, 2013 by fatfree

[Mhak]

And really, it took me several days grinding Voids to get enough of the blueprints to make a Latron prime, and another day to get the exorbitant amount of orokin cells it required. If that doesn't count as "achievement" or "work," I don't know how you define those words.

I interpreted this as "I had to work for something in this game and am outraged! If I can't buy it with platinum and actually have to invest time and effort into achieving something like everybody else, you have yourself one very dissatisfied customer, DE."

[fatfree]

I interpreted this as "I had to work for something in this game and am outraged! If I can't buy it with platinum and actually have to invest time and effort into achieving something like everybody else, you have yourself one very dissatisfied customer, DE."

 

Watch out, someone might interpret you as saying that you hate all paying customers and that people should never ever ever buy anything in Warframe.

 

(that's what they did when I made that point, see Rossman86's post for an example)

Edited June 29, 2013 by fatfree

[Dasmir]

You got the latron prime ? good, cuz im farming it for already a month and no luck..

[Rudest]

I'm going to use my Gorgon, and the inevitability of a Gorgon Prime as an example as to why I "tolerate" this, bare with me:

1. Progression: The crafting process  gives something to strive for, a sense of late game. It also appeals to the collector. A sense of progression is often times incredibly important to keeping me infatuated.

2. Stats: Because they aren't significantly better.

3. Mileage: Because I've already gotten apt usage out of my Gorgon to make that 2 Forma + Catalyst to be worth the investment.

4. Standby: When there is a Gorgon Prime? I will have my default Gorgon on stand by during the Forma Process, when the weapon's level has been reset but I still want to run a higher tier mission with it.

[Rhorge]

I'm going to use my Gorgon, and the inevitability of a Gorgon Prime as an example as to why I "tolerate" this, bare with me:

Sorry to bring you the potential bad news but Gorgon is a Grineer weapon and thus it would make no sense for it to have a prime variant.

[aa777nx]

I interpreted this as "I had to work for something in this game and am outraged! If I can't buy it with platinum and actually have to invest time and effort into achieving something like everybody else, you have yourself one very dissatisfied customer, DE."

Just how did you interpret it as that? I didn't see anything about him being "outraged" or a "dissatisfied customer" in his post.

 

Sorry to bring you the potential bad news but Gorgon is a Grineer weapon and thus it would make no sense for it to have a prime variant.

Someone didn't watch the last livestream...

Edited June 29, 2013 by aa777nx

[LazyKnight]

Just how did you interpret it as that? I didn't see anything about him being "outraged" or a "dissatisfied customer" in his post.

People have false sense of emotional interpretation and insert way more emotion in a topic that was ever intended by the author. Happens in nearly every topic and has gotten to the point its comical.

[fatfree]

People have false sense of emotional interpretation and insert way more emotion in a topic that was ever intended by the author. Happens in nearly every topic and has gotten to the point its comical.

 

If the OP has gotten "emotional" enough to say that everyone who disagrees with him is irrelevant and immature, I don't think it's a far cry to interpret his post that way.

 

People phrase their words to serve a purpose. If OP was outraged that the Latron Prime erased all of the time and effort he put into improving his latron, he would have said that, but again: he didn't. He said it made all the platinum that he wasted meaningless. This isn't baseless conjecture, that is what he said.

 

His post might have made a valid point (one that I would have still disagreed with, but on different grounds) if he had phrased his words a little bit more carefully. But sadly, this is the internet, and the only way to get your meaning across is through your words and not much else, so I interpreted his words the most obvious and logical way.