Why Are People Tolerating The Fact That Prime Variants Are Direct Upgrades To Their Counterparts?

[Kaibah]

Doesn't seem like everyone agrees with you, though. I understand that you feel strongly about that, but disagreeing with you does not make opinions invalid. Like many others and I said - what if the Latron Prime was called differently? Orokin Lance Rifle? Looks different, sounds different, has different stats. Would you complain there, too?

 

I guess, but opinions can be wrong too. As for your question, it would depends on the stats, but yes, I would complain. Should we not be striving for balance and variety as much as possible instead of a few overpowered cookie cutter weapons that everyone should use?

 

Because no one complains that the the Mk.1 Braton is weaker than the Braton. It's the starter weapon, a stepping stone on the way up.

 

Well, we don't know that. I've certainly thought about the MK.1 Braton. Yes, it can be considered a stepping stone (even to a weapon that looks exactly the same), but there has to be a limit. Having a few weapons outclass all would suck, no?

 

Also, hardly any complaints between Boar and Sobek, or Afuris and Twin Vipers. They are similar, but different entities. And that's fine.

 

I haven't compared the stats, but is there even a huge disparity between them compared to something like a Sicarius and the Despair? I doubt it.

[Aerroon]

What if the Latron Prime had be called anything else? It is still "better than a latron" whether it is called "Latron Prime" or "Orokin Semi-Automatic Sniper Rifle That Looks Like a Latron".

 

Are you asking for DE to never add new weapons to the game?

 

I bet you are also upset about the Sobek being better than the Hek in some situations, even though the Sobek isn't Hek Prime (even though it might as well be).

 

Re-potatoing and Re-formaing a Prime weapon is CONTENT FOR THE GAME. You collect the forma, you level the gun, it is SOMETHING TO DO which a lot of people are complaining about the lack of.

That's the thing though: Sobek is better in some situations. Not all of them. A Prime version of a weapon is the same weapon with direct upgrades in stats. A new weapon doesn't work that way. What if they suddenly added a new weapon to the game that would have the exact same stats as some other weapon but did 30% more damage and it wouldn't be a "Prime" version - do you really think people would go "thanks DE, this was an amazing idea for you to do!"? Especially if that weapon was rather popular.

 

But this is the wrong forum for this topic.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Aerroon

[Malikon]

How about if you potato a normal version of a weapon and a direct upgrade of that weapon comes out (and you acquire it) the potato goes to the upgraded version?

I dont think thats very fair to DE.  They give you the taters and formas to spend as you see fit on whatever you want.  If you choose to forma a Braton and 3 weeks later Braton Prime comes out, sorry, bad timing on your part.  I made that mistake once too by putting a tater in Vandal only to have Braton end up being a noticably better weapon because the rivers of tears were raising the base sea level and flooding island countries, and I learned from it.

 

Note for reference:  Vandal only breaks even with Braton Standard at long range (read: Does not surpass, breaks even) , with Braton Standard holding a noticable advantage at short and mid ranges due to increased fire rate.

 

It is fairly safe to say that the introduction of Latron and Frost Primes should've been a pretty strong indication that the prime variants were coming and would start flowing in during major updates (about every month or two?  correct me if im incorrect on timeline).  You can either take the chance and potentially use up your 4x formas and 1x tater (5x20 == 100 or about 6.70USD) and get up to a month or two (at least) of use out of it, or you can wait to see whats next before making your decision.

 

Would you go to City Hall and demand that your neighbors trade in their Porche for a Geo Tracker because you drive a Geo Tracker?  They put in the time and effort to get that Porche, and that means they EARNED/DESERVE it.  Perhaps if you were more willing to put in time and effort, you could earn and deserve that Porche too in the form of a Prime weapon that rightfully surpasses its stock counterpart.

[P1RAT3]

On a sidenote [ignoring all the butthurt and pseudo-intellectuals ITT]: I would love to buy a Lanka prime, with like... 500 damage and no reload :D.

[Kaibah]

A normal latron is still viable, though not as good.

 

So why would you use it? Besides maybe looking different, there is no real good reason to. 

 

And if you made it "more damage, less fire rate" then you'd have this endless stream of debates about "which one is better?" and you'd have people fighting over it.

 

Isn't that a good thing? That kind of discussion proves that neither one is necessarily superior and they are both potentially worth using for different reasons. 

 

There's nothing wrong with putting in more work to get a better weapon. The Latron Prime takes more work to get than the original Latron. Therefore, it should be better.

 

Then what is the point of using other weapons if they're outclassed in every way? What you're basically advocating is everyone at endgame using the same few weapons.

 

There's nothing wrong with this model, it is called PROGRESSION, something that has been lacking in Warframe up until the Prime Weapons started to get introduced.

 

There is lots of progression in Warframe. Could there be more? Sure, why not? To say that it's been lacking until Prime Weapons makes me wonder if you have even played the game.

 

Progression is when you start the game with something "meh", you upgrade to something "so-so" and then a bit down the later, you go to something "good" and eventually something "awesome!".

 

Huh? That already happens now. Yes, mods play a big part of that, but there are a different variety of weapons too. Also, using Forma to make your favourite weapons even better is a form of progression.

 

Mods should not be the only form of progression in Warframe.

 

It isn't, but I'm not against new additions either.

 

Prime Weapons are a good start.

 

I don't see how. They are not the only example, but they are one example that sets a bad precedent by making everyone at endgame use the same few weapons if they want to be the best. I don't see how that's good for variety or the game itself.

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2013 by Kaibah

[Mohavon]

Not sure if anyone has said this before me, but I'll go ahead and say it.

 

I think that prime weapons should require the original weapons as building components. That way it makes more sense that Primes are a direct upgrade.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Mohavon

[Malikon]

Not sure if anyone has said this before me, but I'll go ahead and say it.

 

I think that prime weapons should require the original weapons as building components. That way it makes more sense that Primes are a direct upgrade.

They dont want the prime weapons to be direct upgrades because they feel that their "hard work" is invalidated by the introduction of something that takes more to get but performs better than the POS they bought from the market.

 

Your statement would probably just infuriate them by suggesting their work be destroyed to make something better, which is worse than what it is now because now they get to keep their old stuff and the new stuff too.

 

Also, should note that I do not agree that primes should be sidegrades.  Primes are called primes for a reason, more time/luck/effort to collect the parts, more reason it should be more effective.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Malikon

[WondahBoah]

These threads are great! Lemme shut down your argument.

 

I'll drop this here for reference:

Vandals (Gift from Event)>>>Primes (Rare and hard to obtain)>Regular (Not-so-rare, easy to obtain via money or regular game-playing)

 

Vandals are fantastic weapons*, and are only obtainable via event or some form of participation. If you don't/can't participate, you don't get the weapon. That's 100% fair. If the weapons weren't powerful, there would be no point in participating in the event. Hell, there only 3 of them right now, two of them people still forget exist because of the Snipetron Vandal, and I won't go to that old fight right now. In any case, if you aren't available, no weapon. That's it.

 

Primes... YES, they are better than their descendant weapons (Lore-wise all Primes are, well, "prime" meaning "first" or "original"). However they cannot be obtained like regular weapons (Plat or credit purchase of BP) and are quite rare. Void keys can be obtained through plat or regular gameplay, but if we aren't OP we have to use the latter, meaning rare chances of getting keys. One could say that keys are infinite in number because we keep getting them, but for actual void run purposes, they are somewhat finite. I haven't even gotten to weapons yet. Prime weapons are rare because they have rare BP's that require just as rare materials. Multiply this with limited key runs (unless you can dump plat into keys), and the weapons/frames are rarer still. Even further, you are not guaranteed to get the pieces you want, and that'll only get harder as more primes and their chunks come into the pool. Further still, not everyone has the loadout to run T3 raids like they're Terminus on Mercury, you better learn that quick. There's always the Founder set argument, but to acquire the whole set you need a Grand Master pack, which not everyone has money for.

 

Regular weapons and frames can be purchased with plat for convenience** or crafted from a credit purchased BP. For your argument to make sense, all regular weapons must be obtainable from the get-go, but that isn't so either. A lot are restricted by mastery level, and some really good ones are only part of clan research, and they require even higher mastery levels (You need mastery 7 for Acrid). So even now you should be used to working for better weapons, but there is nothing wrong with a Braton/Lex/Orthos setup. Easy to acquire, and will take you far. I can tell you right now that Clan weapons, if DE is smart, will never get a prime/vandal version, because they are technically the direct to Vandal*** versions anyways.

 

Some other points-

-You'll spend time farming for a weapon just to make another one of yours useless, all so you can complain about it? I would just do so without batting an eyelash, this happens in games with multiple versions of weapons all the time. "Oop, there's a Braton Vandal, time to sell my Braton and have DE take the Braton out of the market." I don't think so.

 

-You use plat, congratulations on your well-off economic setting, and thank you for supporting DE so they can make this great game. Just don't get a big head. Until this game (God forbid) gets a membership system, don't expect (m)any plat-exclusive items/services (See last sentence of PRIME).

 

 

*The Tenno really know their stuff.

 

**This convenience on its own can break your argument. If there was a prime and vandal for every weapon, and they could all be purchased via plat or credit bp, then you'd be 100% right; The Vandal/Prime makes the regular obsolete. But there isn't, they can't, and you aren't. Convenience is mass produced and basic, yes, but there are still regular Frosts out there, kickin &#! with their regular Orthos and their regular Latrons. People still run late-game missions with regular weapons, and do well, sometimes even better than the "All Gold Everything" Frost Prime decked out in all prime gear.

 

*** Vandal means "Tenno Optimized." We took designs from other factions and made them more powerful for our use, "Optimized for Tenno." Convenient, no?

 

In closing, it's tolerated because it's completely fair to all parties. Participation validates receiving a powerful gift. Work validates reaping a powerful reward. Do neither, and you're still pretty well off.

[Tyrian3k]

-snip-

 

I think you missed something.

 

There are many weapons that have no Prime counterpart yet. That basically means that if I want e.g. a Strun, I have to either play the inferior normal version or wait for the Prime version to be released. The thing is: How do I know if DE will actually ever release it?

What I am saying is that if you are one of the people who want to use the Prime version, you don't want any weapons that may get one in the future. There's simply no point in getting them at all.

 

Also: That part with the Braton Vandal is kinda funny as the regular Braton is more powerful than the Vandal version.

[WondahBoah]

I think you missed something.

 

There are many weapons that have no Prime counterpart yet. That basically means that if I want e.g. a Strun, I have to either play the inferior normal version or wait for the Prime version to be released. The thing is: How do I know if DE will actually ever release it?

What I am saying is that if you are one of the people who want to use the Prime version, you don't want any weapons that may get one in the future. There's simply no point in getting them at all.

 

Also: That part with the Braton Vandal is kinda funny as the regular Braton is more powerful than the Vandal version.

Ignoring how long it takes to get a prime are we?

 

and yeah I needed an example so I used that one... poor as it may be I still think I have a solid point

[Tyrian3k]

Ignoring how long it takes to get a prime are we?

 

and yeah I needed an example so I used that one... poor as it may be I still think I have a solid point

 

My point has nothing to do with the effort of getting a Prime, so yes I can completely ignore that.

[Vercinaigh]

I agree, more pros and cons are needed to not make getting a prime and non prime version more of a choice to make than a simple matter of time investment.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I agree, more pros and cons are needed to not make getting a prime and non prime version more of a choice to make than a simple matter of time investment.

That's the problem, why would an original be worse than copies made from it?

[tythimo]

What bothers me about primes(and better and better weapons being added as well) is that it discourages me from using potatoes or forma on any of my weapons, since I know it(the weapon) will more than likely be made obsolete in a couple updates. The system leaves me feeling frustrated and  unsatisfied with the upgrading experience. If using forma and potatoes made me feel I was building my character instead of wasting time/resources/platinum then I might be more inclind to use them. I hope DE can find a way to encourage me to spend forma and potaoes on my weapons and warframes.

[Numot]

Latest batch of primes are side-grades.

[theammostore]

What bothers me about primes(and better and better weapons being added as well) is that it discourages me from using potatoes or forma on any of my weapons, since I know it(the weapon) will more than likely be made obsolete in a couple updates. The system leaves me feeling frustrated and  unsatisfied with the upgrading experience. If using forma and potatoes made me feel I was building my character instead of wasting time/resources/platinum then I might be more inclind to use them. I hope DE can find a way to encourage me to spend forma and potaoes on my weapons and warframes.

There is. It's called 'using them to get the better gear.' either use your 'bad' weaponry to get the 'better' ones, or just upgrade your old so it's as good as the new. Simple. Your old gear isn't worthless once it gets an upgrade, and is by no means obsolete. I still have my Latron and it still is better than my Latron prime.

[Rhorge]

I think you missed something.

 

There are many weapons that have no Prime counterpart yet. That basically means that if I want e.g. a Strun, I have to either play the inferior normal version or wait for the Prime version to be released. The thing is: How do I know if DE will actually ever release it?

What I am saying is that if you are one of the people who want to use the Prime version, you don't want any weapons that may get one in the future. There's simply no point in getting them at all.

Yeah, because god forbid actually having fun playing the game without progression. So what if a prime comes out, will that somehow turn the 3-4 days of fun you had with the non-prime version into agonizing torture?

[Tyrian3k]

Yeah, because god forbid actually having fun playing the game without progression. So what if a prime comes out, will that somehow turn the 3-4 days of fun you had with the non-prime version into agonizing torture?

 

So, after having a lot of fun with a weapon you like to throw it into the trash, just because there's a better and shinier version of it available?

Players like to be rewarded for efforts they put into the game and if I put several Formas on the weapon they are completely wasted as soon as the Prime version is released. Also all the effort put into releveling that weapon was wasted.

There is no fun in having all your effort go to waste.

[Rhorge]

So, after having a lot of fun with a weapon you like to throw it into the trash, just because there's a better and shinier version of it available?

Players like to be rewarded for efforts they put into the game and if I put several Formas on the weapon they are completely wasted as soon as the Prime version is released. Also all the effort put into releveling that weapon was wasted.

There is no fun in having all your effort go to waste.

Again, playing a game is not effort... And yes, I don't mind throwing my old weapons in the trash if I deem it is no longer useful to me. I also don't understand why you think that a prime version of the weapon released = the old one being useless. 10% damage boost on Latron Prime doesn't exactly make your potatoed and thrice formad Latron obsolete because your old latron will be miles better than the stock Latron Prime.

[tythimo]

Again, playing a game is not effort... And yes, I don't mind throwing my old weapons in the trash if I deem it is no longer useful to me. I also don't understand why you think that a prime version of the weapon released = the old one being useless. 10% damage boost on Latron Prime doesn't exactly make your potatoed and thrice formad Latron obsolete because your old latron will be miles better than the stock Latron Prime.

I am affraid you are missing the point like a lot of others on this thread. The point is that adding a potatoe and/or forma feels like a wasted effort. I am not saying that the Prime weapons should not be better. They should be superior to the regular version. The complaint that many of us have is that the current trend does not encourage us to deck out our weapons; instead, it encourages us NOT TO USE FORMA AND POTATOES since every non-prime weapon will become trash. I'm hoping DE understand this because lots of players won't spend platium if it feels pointless.

Again I am not saying that Primes should be equal to the originals. I would like to see a system that encourages me to deck out all my stuff, currently we have nothing like that due to obsolete weapons.

[theammostore]

I am affraid you are missing the point like a lot of others on this thread. The point is that adding a potatoe and/or forma feels like a wasted effort. I am not saying that the Prime weapons should not be better. They should be superior to the regular version. The complaint that many of us have is that the current trend does not encourage us to deck out our weapons; instead, it encourages us NOT TO USE FORMA AND POTATOES since every non-prime weapon will become trash. I'm hoping DE understand this because lots of players won't spend platium if it feels pointless.

Again I am not saying that Primes should be equal to the originals. I would like to see a system that encourages me to deck out all my stuff, currently we have nothing like that due to obsolete weapons.

But they don't become trash they simply become 'not the top.' In some cases, it actually doesn't change anything.

 

I have the Paris and the Dread. The Dread vastly outshines the Paris due to higher damage and doing blade damage. That makes it great vs infested and good vs others if you aim properly. The Paris Prime simply has higher damage compared to the Paris. It does no extra damage to Infested, so even if the damage is on par with the Dread (i haven't used it and i don't want to go look at the wiki at the moment) then the Dread still has that extra point of 'Infested hate me with this thing.'

 

Latron Prime vs Latron I can see your argument, the LPrime, as far as I know, is the best Semi-auto weapon in the game, but what if another semi-auto weapon comes out that's like the Dread of semi-autos. Better in several aspects, you simply need to be more skillful. THen what happens? Well, unless the LPrime gets a few more features, the new rifle will still be better if you are skilled enough

[Kaizz]

I have my Frost Prime, and I love it. I didn't think I'd get one so soon, though. I worked so hard on my Frost, if I had known it would be that easy, I would have never gone for the regular one in the first place. What I don't get is why the Primes are flat out different frames and weapons. Why can't the Primes be a BP that only drops from T2's and 3's. They'd require a nice size chunk of resources, and they'd upgrade your current weapon to it's "Prime" form. Preserve the work you've done, get a substantial upgrade, and a BP of the original can be sent to your inventory, in case you don't like it.

[tythimo]

I have my Frost Prime, and I love it. I didn't think I'd get one so soon, though. I worked so hard on my Frost, if I had known it would be that easy, I would have never gone for the regular one in the first place. What I don't get is why the Primes are flat out different frames and weapons. Why can't the Primes be a BP that only drops from T2's and 3's. They'd require a nice size chunk of resources, and they'd upgrade your current weapon to it's "Prime" form. Preserve the work you've done, get a substantial upgrade, and a BP of the original can be sent to your inventory, in case you don't like it.

I like this idea

[Aizeol]

Am I the only one getting the sense that OP is troll...?

[Urbanspaceman]

the mentioned fact , Prime  > Normal ,    made me care less about current weapons, and only forma Prime and Vandal weapons, since I fear my effort will be wasted as soon as primes come out.

Shouldn`t be like that...