The Amount Of Ancients Is (Still) Too Damn High!

[Arcalane]

Memetic title aside...

I just started a Deception vs Infestation mission on Jupiter because I'm levelling a Rhino and Fragor. Puttering along, minding my own business, and I'm swarmed within the first couple of rooms. I wind up killing about six ancients in the space of about two or three minutes - a healthy mix of toxics and disruptors.

Okay, moving on, about two rooms ahead I get mobbed again. This time, it's three disruptors and two toxics. What the F***? Four rooms in and my kill count is now about 25% Ancients, and I've already had to use two of the four Large Health Restores I carry. My Braton is down to 117 loaded / 226 spare of 117 loaded / 801 spare starting ammo. I've gone through higher-ranked missions than this using less ammo in the span of the whole mission.

Icing on the cake - it's all Disruptors and Toxics, both the most annoying kind to fight - either because they just wreck your shields+energy, or completely ignore your shields and eat up your health.

Title says it all. The amount and frequency of Ancients is still absolutely preposterous. I wouldn't mind if they were 1) easier to kill, or 2) less common, but that many at once is just ridiculous.

Ancients themselves are not that bad, it's just how many are being thrown around at once, and the type distribution.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Arcalane

[SigFloyd]

I wind up killing about six ancients in the space of about two or three minutes - a healthy mix of toxics and disruptors.

You're luckier than I. I mostly come across squads consisting entirely of Ancients. Regular infested are like the few little peppercorns in the misery soup. It makes leveling new weapons not unlike pulling teeth.

Edited January 28, 2013 by SigFloyd

[DreamerNeon]

True dat, the other day me and two guys got ambushed by 7 of them. Volt's dash never felt more useful.

[Twisted_Mentat]

Ancients keep melee semi balanced in Infected areas but... Yeah, I have to agree. I absolutely despise them all, especially Toxics (as a shield tanker.)

I don't have a better solution to the melee problem with infected though.

[Arcalane]

Shaking up Ancients and overhauling Infested, hmmm...

Okay, here's what I'd do--

First things first, we take the original three Ancients (Healer, Toxic, Disruptor) and triple their XP values. Right now they're roughly 200 a pop and that's ridiculous for something that takes longer to kill than a Grineer Heavy.

Now, we make the original three much rarer. Roughly the same incidence rate as Grineer Heavies. You should never run into more than two at once.

First up, Healers. Healers should gradually restore health to nearby Infested (but not other Ancients) rather than using pulses, because the pulses don't actually seem to work - or if they do, they barely do anything. Also make them slowly regenerate health themselves. Healers should be decently capable melee fighters, without relying on the shield-ignoring toxic properties, or the Disruptor's effects- which I'll get to next.

Next up, Disruptors! Disruptors can ditch the energy+shield drain effect that they use on every attack because it's ridiculous, and replace it with a radial energy+shield drain effect. Just standing near these guys steadily depletes your shields and energy at a % rate rather than a flat rate- so it always takes them x seconds to deplete you,regardless of your total and current shields/energy. If Disruptors leech enough energy, they enter a berzerker state where they gain a hefty shield bar, attack faster, and hit harder - but until they do, they're not all that punchy. You wanna kill 'em fast, and from a distance.

Last but not least, we take Toxic Ancients. These guys can get Golem's toxic bomb/grenade tossing power, as well as retaining their radial toxic cloud. Keep moving, take them out from a distance, and don't get close. Toxics actually might not be interested in getting too close, and instead hang back tossing toxbombs. Don't get bogged down in a big brawl or blob of common infested if you know a Toxic is lurking about, or they'll make things much worse for you.

Tweaks to the original three aside, we add a new kind of Ancient - well, let's call it a Brute because that's all it is. Brutes are about half to two thirds as tough as the Ancients (that is, 2 Brutes ≈ 1-to-1.3 Ancient(s), in terms of effective health), and are uncomplicated Smash Mooks that like to charge at you and maybe do a ground slam or sweeping attack that can knock you down every so often. Brutes take the place of Ancients as they are now in basically every way.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Arcalane

[colorize]

^^ this guys suggestions are great. Honestly, they're really well thought out.

Just to add to this, I think all infected including ancients need to do more damage. Ancients as a whole are completely non-threatening even with 4+ in a room (and infected). Melee is way too OP against them IMO.

[UkyoSonoda]

Currently a large number of ancients in a room is about the only incentive a player has to keep awareness of their surroundings and to do more than run around spamming melee attacks the whole time during an infested mission.

I'm actually fine with the shield + Energy wipe on the disrupters simply because it's incredibly easy to avoid them if you pay attention to surroundings and don't play with tunnel vision.

[psyanide]

Hate... Toxic... ANCIENTS!!! I solo a lot and the amount of times I have just had to jump off a ledge (and into more enemies) to avoid their indefinate sprint mode (the one where they're faster than you, even with sprint speed upgrades), just uggh. Best example, think it was on Saturday afternoon and my wife was watching me do the Golem boss run. I S#&$ you guys not - 12 Ancients and the boss and an endless amount of trash mobs were in that room with me. Now, my wife has never played the game before but after watching me plinking away at their health (went in without my trusty Gorgon this time so my Aklatos were my only capable weapon :X) for a good 20 minutes (ammo packs ftw), even she was like "HOW THE HELL ARE YOU MEANT TO BEAT THIS!?" The boss kept tp'ing me back to him, even out of mid-air, there was poison everywhere, every time I got knocked down I felt like I was about to have a heart attack...

I won, eventually, with only one revive used. The crazy part is, the sadomasochist side of my gaming persona (the one that likes Dark Souls)... Kind of liked it. It was the most hard won fight I had EVER had in WarFrame and I came away feeling like a true badass- it was a situation like you read about in WarHammer novels. It felt like a lone surviving Space Marine against a seemingly endless horde of Tyrannid. The mission had to be finished, the abomination and its slavering horde had to die, no matter the cost!

It will be sad, in a way, to have that kind of crazy, desperate situation not exist anymore. Though it may have been a bit buggy, since I have done that level a few times aftwerwards and not had nearly that kind of issue.

Edited January 28, 2013 by psyanide

[Strac_CRO]

it's good for game to be hard

[Trancemaster]

Shaking up Ancients and overhauling Infested, hmmm...

Okay, here's what I'd do--

First things first, we take the original three Ancients (Healer, Toxic, Disruptor) and triple their XP values. Right now they're roughly 200 a pop and that's ridiculous for something that takes longer to kill than a Grineer Heavy.

Now, we make the original three much rarer. Roughly the same incidence rate as Grineer Heavies. You should never run into more than two at once.

First up, Healers. Healers should gradually restore health to nearby Infested (but not other Ancients) rather than using pulses, because the pulses don't actually seem to work - or if they do, they barely do anything. Also make them slowly regenerate health themselves. Healers should be decently capable melee fighters, without relying on the shield-ignoring toxic properties, or the Disruptor's effects- which I'll get to next.

Next up, Disruptors! Disruptors can ditch the energy+shield drain effect that they use on every attack because it's ridiculous, and replace it with a radial energy+shield drain effect. Just standing near these guys steadily depletes your shields and energy at a % rate rather than a flat rate- so it always takes them x seconds to deplete you,regardless of your total and current shields/energy. If Disruptors leech enough energy, they enter a berzerker state where they gain a hefty shield bar, attack faster, and hit harder - but until they do, they're not all that punchy. You wanna kill 'em fast, and from a distance.

Last but not least, we take Toxic Ancients. These guys can get Golem's toxic bomb/grenade tossing power, as well as retaining their radial toxic cloud. Keep moving, take them out from a distance, and don't get close. Toxics actually might not be interested in getting too close, and instead hang back tossing toxbombs. Don't get bogged down in a big brawl or blob of common infested if you know a Toxic is lurking about, or they'll make things much worse for you.

Tweaks to the original three aside, we add a new kind of Ancient - well, let's call it a Brute because that's all it is. Brutes are about half to two thirds as tough as the Ancients (that is, 2 Brutes ≈ 1-to-1.3 Ancient(s), in terms of effective health), and are uncomplicated Smash Mooks that like to charge at you and maybe do a ground slam or sweeping attack that can knock you down every so often. Brutes take the place of Ancients as they are now in basically every way.

what you basicly are saying is this. Infestation to hard please nerf pve.

because remove the shield drain attack from disruptors and reduce the amount of ancients you can get. what is the point really? thay are the only ones that even have a slight chance of stoping you

i am just going to say NO! but sure the ancients have some EXP bugs and the AOE pulse heal does not work but thay dont need such a drastic nerf

Edited January 28, 2013 by Trancemaster

[Demonocolips]

ancients arent that hard to deal with (baring your using the right weapons.)

its just that at least to me that their unarmored bits seem inconsistant.

just me though.

[Eversor]

You are lucky im not a DE Dev, if i were, ALL INFECTED WOULD BE ANCIENTS LEVEL 70 minimum.Guys, seriously, my god, im not a pro ,not even "elitist" and the game feels boringly easy,ancients or not. Hell, i even handicap myself using such bad guns like boar and broken frames like Ash... Dont know what to say to this kind of posts... Thats how the story goes... cryers everywhere...

Edited January 28, 2013 by Eversor

[Arcalane]

...no, that's not it all. Great job not reading, guys! There are too many Ancients, and/or their XP reward is too low for how long they take to kill. Their health should reflect their XP reward, or vice versa.

Back when I was using my Loki, Ancients were just a case of 'lol, decoy' and use them as target dummies whilst they ineffectually flailed at the holodecoy, generally incapable of killing it. 25 energy a pop to neutralize Ancients via distraction. Trivial. Boring.

I understand they're necessary for the Infested to pose a threat, but: Healers are pushovers (heal pulse is weak, if it does anything at all), and Disruptors/Toxics are a huge pain in the &#!. They rely on being able to instantly wipe your shields/energy, or simply ignore your shields, in order to be able to pose a threat. Toxics aren't too bad, I'll admit, just very annoying. But most fights they get into turn into kiting - running away from them whilst shooting.

The instant energy+shield drain does not strike me as particularly interesting mechanically speaking. That's why I proposed making Disruptors do something with the shields and energy, so you have a greater incentive to stay away and kill them. It's not "oh S#&$, it ate all our shields and energy... well that sucks but it's not really dangerous now because its normal attacks are weak" any more, it's "oh S#&$, it's eating all our shields and energy... wait now it's got shields, and it's running faster, and attacking faster, and doing more damage!".

Gameplay vs Infested largely swings between two extremes- either it's boring because they're all too easy to kill, or it's bullS#&$ because you just got stunlocked for half a minute by exploders, then maybe cornered by a bunch of Ancients who strike in an offset sequence so you never get up again before they slowly tentacleslap you to death. Or you didn't so you'll be fine after a quick breather because the exploders really didn't do all that much damage.

I ran a random non-? alert last night and didn't see any Ancients until about the last quarter of the mission, at which point I came up against around three or four toxics over about twice as many rooms - so that wasn't too bad. It does, however, make me think some values in the spawn system are seriously, seriously broken.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Arcalane

[Hikaratu]

I didn't read through all of this thread I'll just say I find it enjoyable when I'm running into large numbers of ancients and I have to be very careful about how I go about the encounter if I am to survive it. Any other point in an infested mission is fairly mindless with slashing.