Gender Roles?

[Xievie]

Also think about it this way.

 

What the hell is a male Banshee?

[Voltyr]

Should DE only allow one of each frame to be logged on at any time too? Wouldn't be true to the lore if two Mags were in the galaxy at the same time. Team Fortress 2, there's only two of each class (One for each side, totalling eighteen.) But for gameplay reasons, more are allowed, deviating from the lore. And note, for -gameplay- reasons. Gender is cosmetic, by extension meaningless, by extension not a good excuse to deviate from the lore.

Cosmetics are meaningless? And now we're drifting off into some very murky debate territory, because this is very much an opinion-based thing.

For instance I could argue cosmetcs are about as meaningless as the aesthetic of the game. Is the game's aesthetic meaningless? absolutely not, it adds to the game experience in a very real way, every bit as real as gameplay. At least one whole part of the game is about looking cool while you slide and wallrun and slice things up, and cosmetcs are a part of that.

[Voltyr]

Also think about it this way.

 

What the hell is a male Banshee?

A very loud and sexually confused ghost.

[Code_Grey]

Don't know if that's a great example, but I get what you're trying to say. You can't change a character, because it would then no longer be the same character.

Now imagine that there'd be a Gruntilda Freeman as a skin in Half Life: Deathmatch though. Would that in any way impact the game? I think it would, but only in a positive way. Because in that enviroment, the lore ceases to be important. In that enviroment, characters aren't their unique selves because there is no story around them and they can be replaced with any other character that has the same abilities.In that enviroment, all it does is add an aesthetic choice for players.

 

True, true. However DE hasn't created these Tenno as blank slates. Sarin was changed to Saryn because it didn't sound feminine enough, so there was a clear 'This Tenno must be female' goal. And you have to remember this was created as a multiplayer game (With a solo component..where Stalker is garunteed to show up, knowing my bad luck.) So they had to have fully fleshed out lore and characters, going back to TF2. That has a story, even a comic series based around it. Lore is valid in certain multiplayer games, and Warframe is one of them.

 

And, I don't deny more choice is a good option -in most cases-. Platinum option would be the best way to implement this. I just feel that people are misunderstanding what the Tenno are.

[Code_Grey]

Cosmetics are meaningless? And now we're drifting off into some very murky debate territory, because this is very much an opinion-based thing.

For instance I could argue cosmetcs are about as meaningless as the aesthetic of the game. Is the game's aesthetic meaningless? absolutely not, it adds to the game experience in a very real way, every bit as real as gameplay. At least one whole part of the game is about looking cool while you slide and wallrun and slice things up, and cosmetcs are a part of that.

 

Being able to buy santa hats in a micro-transaction, that's the meaningless cosmetic option. You've misunderstood me. I should've been more specific with what I meant by cosmetics.

 

Appearance altering options given to players, that may or may not be true to the lore of the game. Santa hats, armour pieces. These are meaningless (In terms of gameplay. They are great ways for DE to make money without worrying about balancing etc.)

[Voltyr]

True, true. However DE hasn't created these Tenno as blank slates. Sarin was changed to Saryn because it didn't sound feminine enough, so there was a clear 'This Tenno must be female' goal. And you have to remember this was created as a multiplayer game (With a solo component..where Stalker is garunteed to show up, knowing my bad luck.) So they had to have fully fleshed out lore and characters, going back to TF2. That has a story, even a comic series based around it. Lore is valid in certain multiplayer games, and Warframe is one of them.

 

And, I don't deny more choice is a good option -in most cases-. Platinum option would be the best way to implement this. I just feel that people are misunderstanding what the Tenno are.

Agreed, lore is VERY valid in Warframe. In fact, it's an extremely interesting part of the game that I feel hasn't been explored enough.

I just feel that the option for alt. gender warframes should be there regardless of the canon lore. Actually I think a lot of people would love to dig into increased customizability like that for roleplay purposes, too.

[Voltyr]

Being able to buy santa hats in a micro-transaction, that's the meaningless cosmetic option. You've misunderstood me. I should've been more specific with what I meant by cosmetics.

 

Appearance altering options given to players, that may or may not be true to the lore of the game. Santa hats, armour pieces. These are meaningless (In terms of gameplay. They are great ways for DE to make money without worrying about balancing etc.)

My apologies, I had indeed misunderstood you.

So "appearance altering options given to players, that may or may not be true to the lore of the game". Do they or do they not impact the gaming experience in a positive enough way to warrant creating content that actively clashes with the game's own lore?

Honestly I think it depends. The example you gave of santa hats? Personally I feel that has no place in the game, because nobody would go "Oh yes, I feel so much more awesome and badass and more like a Tenno now that I'm wearing this santa hat." Tenno do not wear santa hats and this is therefore in conflict with the game's lore while adding nothing to the gaming experience.

Now let's try another cosmetic item on for size, let's say...

An authentic samurai mask from Earth's past. This would most likely clash with the lore on many accounts, but it fits and I can imagine that some players would really enjoy watching their Tenno butcher Grineer more than ever before with that mask. In a case like that, I personally think it should be okay to implement such an item seeing as it enriches the gaming experience for some players.

I think I'll leave it at that, because the debate is becoming increasingly opinion-based, with fewer and fewer factual arguments to back up either side. I think this may indicate that there is truth to both views. Either way, it's been a pleasure talking to you good sir. :)

Edited July 6, 2013 by Voltyr

[Code_Grey]

I think I'll leave it at that, because the debate is becoming increasingly opinion-based, with fewer and fewer factual arguments to back up either side. I think this may indicate that there is truth to both views. Either way, it's been a pleasure talking to you good sir. :)

 

Likewise. I just hope any cosmetic items released (If any) aren't tradable. Because then we're truly going TF2 mode. Next thing you know we're opening Tenn Co. crates and carrying plushie Moa on our belts.

[Voltyr]

Likewise. I just hope any cosmetic items released (If any) aren't tradable. Because then we're truly going TF2 mode. Next thing you know we're opening Tenn Co. crates and carrying plushie Moa on our belts.

Hahah, yes indeed. Let us hope for a better future than that, shall we?

[Doforcash]

DE mentioned that there is only one of each frame lore wise because they are people(or Tenno whichever you want to use) not just characters or classes like in other mmo games. This was mentioned either in one of the livestreams (#5,6 or 7) or it was mentioned at E3 during one of the interviews Steve did. (For gametrailers I think)

so....4 Ash mean 3 of them are clones ?

[kaizoku222]

One good reason for not doing this is time management and resources. It would take DE just as much time to make a genderswap of an existing frame as it would to make a new one. So it comes down to priority, do you want an entirely new frame, or a gender swap of an existing one? Considering how small the roster is right now, DE is probably thinking they could use more unique frames instead of investing in this idea which wouldn't generate much content.

 

At the end of the day gender is primarily a cosmetic choice in most games, a nice option to have but one that does not add content, and for a small F2P like warframe the focus needs to be content.

[Voltyr]

so....4 Ash mean 3 of them are clones ?

Yes, essentially.

 

One good reason for not doing this is time management and resources. It would take DE just as much time to make a genderswap of an existing frame as it would to make a new one. So it comes down to priority, do you want an entirely new frame, or a gender swap of an existing one? Considering how small the roster is right now, DE is probably thinking they could use more unique frames instead of investing in this idea which wouldn't generate much content.

 

At the end of the day gender is primarily a cosmetic choice in most games, a nice option to have but one that does not add content, and for a small F2P like warframe the focus needs to be content.

Well you're right, it takes time and resources. However, you say it would take them just as long as it would take them to make a new warframe alltogether, which isn't exactly true. We're talking about the idea that the concept artist doesn't have to try and think of a whole new style for the warframe, and about the idea that animations can be re-used in terms of the movement set and attack animations, and about greatly decreased work on the ability animations, as well as the idea that the modelers can create most parts of the model by using existing assets as reference material. Still a lot of work, but all in all a lot less work than creating a new frame from scratch.

This is just me arguing over the details of your point though. I can't deny the core of your point: A feature like this would take time and money, and would take away development time from features that can easily be considered more important to the game and it's players. Because of this I wouldn't suggest that DE should start on alt. gender warframes right away, not by any stretch of the imagination, but I would suggest that they look into it at some point in the future when they've finished a lot of bigger projects and have a lull in activity.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Voltyr

[Code_Grey]

Hahah, yes indeed. Let us hope for a better future than that, shall we?

 

Well, I think I'm willing to make a compromise. People can have their Rhino boobies, if I can reskin my Paris arrows to be tiny Wyrms, and I can have a Grineer teddybear backpack. Because, I'd buy that ten times over.

 

 

Please DE...I can't unthink these ideas!

[Voltyr]

Well, I think I'm willing to make a compromise. People can have their Rhino boobies, if I can reskin my Paris arrows to be tiny Wyrms, and I can have a Grineer teddybear backpack. Because, I'd buy that ten times over.

 

 

Please DE...I can't unthink these ideas!

Lol, brilliant. Actually I'd buy that too, if they were physical goodies. Grineer teddybear backpack is most badass teddybear backpack.

[ValhaHazred]

Also think about it this way.

 

What the hell is a male Banshee?

Sidhe (Pronounced Shee)

 

A very loud and sexually confused ghost.

Banshee are fairies, not ghosts.

Edited July 7, 2013 by ValhaHazred

[arch111]

Seriously, if the fanbsase need both genders, make both models.

The work involved by simply making a female rhino, is a matter of basemodels, and a relative short sculpting period.

The real work is if you demand separate powers, movements, lore etc.

However, if you put a pricetag on it, they might.

So whats the issue? Just a new model or brand new frames?

[theammostore]

Seriously, if the fanbsase need both genders, make both models.

The work involved by simply making a female rhino, is a matter of basemodels, and a relative short sculpting period.

The real work is if you demand separate powers, movements, lore etc.

However, if you put a pricetag on it, they might.

So whats the issue? Just a new model or brand new frames?

The issue is working on this as opposed to fixing mechanics or improving the game. No need to add in new things as opposed to fixing what is already there.

 

Also, the issue is Lore, which the Devs have said the frames being only one gender. The ONLY thing we will ever get in terms of genderswaps is a frame that is the opposite gender, with different powers, and the same theme.

[VeronikaStripper]

DE has stated that the closest thing you will get to a gender swap is a new warframe, but with similar abilities. An example perhaps...

 

Ash - Male - Ninja-frame

Dust - Female - Ninja-frame

 

Ember - Female - Heat-frame

Blaze - Male - Heat-frame

 

Frost - Male - Cold-frame

Cryo - Female - Cold-frame

 

They will have seperate models and names. They are unsure if the abilities will be identical or not, but at least similar as far as their base.. heat, cold, ninja, poison.. etc

 

EDIT: by the way, these are speculative names. DE has not confirmed nor denied any of this, just a thought that they have.

Edited July 7, 2013 by valdrak

[arch111]

Ok, so if Lore states that every warframe is genderbased, then what we need are equal numbers to choose from.

Why does it enhance the game? Imo for identifying with your own gender is allways a plus.

When starting out, optimally there should be 6 frames then.

This would mean, if you choose male as your Tenno, all female frames are incompatible? Lorewise, i mean.

If not as it is now, nothing prevents me from owning both, right.

And thinking i therefore play two separate Tenno feel, out of place.

That sounds more like a solo game.

I agree that this is not the highest priority. Deal with this later.

[Anvildude]

DE has stated that the closest thing you will get to a gender swap is a new warframe, but with similar abilities. An example perhaps...

 

Ash - Male - Ninja-frame

Dust - Female - Ninja-frame

 

Ember - Female - Heat-frame

Blaze - Male - Heat-frame

 

Frost - Male - Cold-frame

Cryo - Female - Cold-frame

 

They will have seperate models and names. They are unsure if the abilities will be identical or not, but at least similar as far as their base.. heat, cold, ninja, poison.. etc

 

EDIT: by the way, these are speculative names. DE has not confirmed nor denied any of this, just a thought that they have.

 

You heard it first here, folks.  Ninja is now an Element.

 

[ValhaHazred]

Of course Ninja is an element. It's weak to fire.

[Voltyr]

Sidhe (Pronounced Shee)

 

Banshee are fairies, not ghosts.

Apologies, I wasn't aware that the Banshee were related to the Sidhe. Seems kind of logical when you think of the word's pronounciation though, yet still I managed to miss it. >_< My Celtic mythology is a little rusty.

So anyway, yeah, ignorant of this fact I instead drew from how Banshees are currently popularly depicted, which is often as some form of wraith of spectral being.

[Troublechutor]

I think the only time I even notice my frame is when I'm standing on an elevator with nothing to do, othwerwise its all spinny/shooty/stabby and it really doesn't matter what's going on between its legs.

 

I'm a little disturbed that so many players actually care about gender, its a video game, about ninjas in space, dafuq do you care what bathroom you're supposed to use?

 

DE should just come out and say that all warframes are asexual, and the attributes of gender we see are echo's of the frames construction process that used male/female DNA... because that would end the debate about your sex in a cartoon game on the internet.  /facepalm

[ValhaHazred]

snip preceding post.

I agree with asexual frames in principle (and drew two of my fanframes that way) but I'd still like to choose my "echo". I do notice my frame a lot too.

Edited July 10, 2013 by ValhaHazred

[lautalocos]

Sorry to disappoint, but it isn't going to happen. If it does, will will prob on the very last things to do. Having gender swaps for frames kinda ruins the lore of the game where there is only supposed to be one of each frame (Lore wise).

Pretty sure DE has stated multiple times as well that Gender swaps are not happening as well.

yeah, because the lore is not broken by the fact that there can be 4 rhinos in a squad.