Set A Hard Cap For Mastery And Allow Us To Gain Mastery Points From Forma'd Weapons.

[Rossman86]

As I understand it, there currently is no cap on mastery level, it's simply limited by the number of unique weapons a player can level and this is part of the reason Forma'd weapons can't count for mastery. So my suggestion is to just put a cap on mastery, which DE can periodically raise as they see fit, and allow us to gain mastery from reset weapons. The only reason I've read that justifies the current system is that it forces players to try new weapons. But not every weapon is appealing to every player, and so anyone grinding up their mastery inevitably ends up leveling many weapons they don't care about and shooting them in the garbage anyway. The inventory space limits also make this a virtual requirement. Only a dedicated collector would buy slots for weapons he/she hates and other players won't buy more than one or two extra slots just to cycle throwaway weapons. 

 

Along with allowing players to use their favorite guns to level up, it would also give players another incentive to use Forma. As it is now, there's nothing in the game that really requires the extra few slots worth of power you can milk out of a weapon using forma. I don't think having another incentive to use it would hurt anything. And to anyone who might complain that people will just forma and level the strongest weapons over and over, if someone has the fortitude to grind levels for the exact same gun, over and over and over, and use more than 8 Formas on it, well they deserve to get their mastery rank I guess.

[Seeryxlas]

mastery is meant to show your knowledge of multiple weapons, not a PHD on just ONE particular weapon. 

[DCypherThis13]

+ Mutha F*kin 1.

 

Don't PHds make more money than someone with an associates degree?

Edited July 8, 2013 by DCypherThis13

[XCodes]

+ Mutha F*kin 1.

 

Don't PHds make more money than someone with an associates degree?

PhD vs. Associates with no experience, probably not.  Associates degrees in top fields can out-earn PhDs in weak fields.

PhD vs. Associates + 5 years experience (roughly the time it takes to go from an Associates to a PhD in a particular field), many, MANY fields will be out-earned by a guy who has an Associates in Computer Science + 5 years work experience.

 

Also, I like the current system of gaining mastery.  It encourages players to branch out and try different weapons, and while you do have to do some grinding for said weapons, it's a lot more interesting than just running missions with the exact same setup over and over.

[Rossman86]

PhD vs. Associates with no experience, probably not.  Associates degrees in top fields can out-earn PhDs in weak fields.

PhD vs. Associates + 5 years experience (roughly the time it takes to go from an Associates to a PhD in a particular field), many, MANY fields will be out-earned by a guy who has an Associates in Computer Science + 5 years work experience.

 

Also, I like the current system of gaining mastery.  It encourages players to branch out and try different weapons, and while you do have to do some grinding for said weapons, it's a lot more interesting than just running missions with the exact same setup over and over.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I never said people had to level by using forma on weapons. You would still be free to level in whatever way floats your boat. This change just gives people more options without really negatively impacting anything.

 

mastery is meant to show your knowledge of multiple weapons, not a PHD on just ONE particular weapon. 

 Great analogy, except for the part where we're never tested on this expertise, and you can get your mastery of a weapon from 0-30 and throw it in the garbage without ever firing it.

[DCypherThis13]

PhD vs. Associates with no experience, probably not.  Associates degrees in top fields can out-earn PhDs in weak fields.

PhD vs. Associates + 5 years experience (roughly the time it takes to go from an Associates to a PhD in a particular field), many, MANY fields will be out-earned by a guy who has an Associates in Computer Science + 5 years work experience.

 

Also, I like the current system of gaining mastery.  It encourages players to branch out and try different weapons, and while you do have to do some grinding for said weapons, it's a lot more interesting than just running missions with the exact same setup over and over.

 

If you don't cheat the system in the game, you are working and getting your degree at the same time. Therefore, a 2-3 year degree with the same experience will not be making as much as someone with 7-10 years of school and work concurrently.

 

The current system does work, but I have to say that it has it's limits. Imagine it this way; you want to become a brain surgeon. However, to earn your PHd, you have to get a Master's in Computer Science, Business Management, English Literature, and 5 lanuages. Does that make any sense?

 

I would much rather be a Master of one trade, than a Jack-of-All.....

[lstalri]

This topic has already been discussed ad nauseum here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/69011-mastery-xp-on-formad-items-now/

 

Do we really need to go over it again?

[Rossman86]

This topic has already been discussed ad nauseum here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/69011-mastery-xp-on-formad-items-now/

 

Do we really need to go over it again?

 

Every argument in that thread against a change can basically be boiled down to "no because mastery represents the amount of weapons people have leveled, you can't just play your favorites" and "no because then people would only level mastery with their best weapons". Both are really weak arguments that I already mentioned above. Neither argument has much merit in reality as you can level weapons from 0-30 without ever using them as long as you don't play alone 100% of the time. So in practice all mastery really represents is time spent with under level 30 weapons in your inventory. I leveled my sicarus to 30 and only ever shot it by accident, or when I had the data case, and then I threw it in the trash when it was done. Probably like most other people.

 

As for the argument about people only using the strongest weapons, I honestly have to wonder if anyone ever actually stops and thinks about other people's ideas before posting a reply, instead of throwing out literally the first thing that comes to their mind. I mean how many sane, normal players are going to be able to actually power through HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of mastery points using just one or two weapons without going out of their minds. EVEN THEN, did you actually stop and ask yourselves how much forma that would take? These imaginary sickos would have to either throw literal fistfulls of cash at the store to buy mass quantities of the formas, or spend the the rest of their natural lives farming them in the void.

 

Just  to throw some math in there, assuming the wiki is up to date, the current max rank is 11, with 312 000 total mastery. assuming someone maxed out every frame, that leaves 234 000 mastery points to gain through weapons, or 78 weapons/forma resets. How many people are going to farm or buy (at 20 plat a pop!) 50...60...maybe 70 formas? So as I said in my first post, if anyone has the raging desire and the mental fortitude to actually do this, do they not deserve mastery rank? For probably 99.9% of the player base, all this change would do is let people skip some uninteresting weapons, and spend some extra time with weapons they enjoy while also getting their mastery for it. Are we going to let all our decisions be dictated by the possible actions of extreme outliers that may or may not exist?

[MrHeartless]

Every argument in that thread against a change can basically be boiled down to "no because mastery represents the amount of weapons people have leveled, you can't just play your favorites" and "no because then people would only level mastery with their best weapons". Both are really weak arguments that I already mentioned above. Neither argument has much merit in reality as you can level weapons from 0-30 without ever using them as long as you don't play alone 100% of the time. So in practice all mastery really represents is time spent with under level 30 weapons in your inventory. I leveled my sicarus to 30 and only ever shot it by accident, or when I had the data case, and then I threw it in the trash when it was done. Probably like most other people.

 

As for the argument about people only using the strongest weapons, I honestly have to wonder if anyone ever actually stops and thinks about other people's ideas before posting a reply, instead of throwing out literally the first thing that comes to their mind. I mean how many sane, normal players are going to be able to actually power through HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of mastery points using just one or two weapons without going out of their minds. EVEN THEN, did you actually stop and ask yourselves how much forma that would take? These imaginary sickos would have to either throw literal fistfulls of cash at the store to buy mass quantities of the formas, or spend the the rest of their natural lives farming them in the void.

 

Just  to throw some math in there, assuming the wiki is up to date, the current max rank is 11, with 312 000 total mastery. assuming someone maxed out every frame, that leaves 234 000 mastery points to gain through weapons, or 78 weapons/forma resets. How many people are going to farm or buy (at 20 plat a pop!) 50...60...maybe 70 formas? So as I said in my first post, if anyone has the raging desire and the mental fortitude to actually do this, do they not deserve mastery rank? For probably 99.9% of the player base, all this change would do is let people skip some uninteresting weapons, and spend some extra time with weapons they enjoy while also getting their mastery for it. Are we going to let all our decisions be dictated by the possible actions of extreme outliers that may or may not exist?

I find myself having to agree with this. This game, by its nature is a grind. There is little pvp so you are only really competiting against your urge to conquer all available content and lengthen your epeen. That being said, if I have to grind xini for weeks to secure enough mods to max out the ranks of my load out, I would rather do that with weapons I appreciate and those which give me the most joy.

 

To those who will claim "mastery" means the "mastery of all things" need to realise this a game, a grindy game, where weapons take days to farm and craft and frames all the same. Additionally, "mastery" implies you have "mastered" something and as far as I know the game is called Warframe, not Masters of Weaponry, so if one individual chooses to master his Hek, who are you to say he does not deserve his rank. "Games" by their basic definition are meant to be "fun" and we as humans have our base desire to amuse ourselves by way of engaging entertainment. So, any system which limits this goes against the core premise of what a game should be aimed at doing. All of you have probably, at some point in time or the other, bashed the stereotypical "asian grindfest" as they are monotonous and mind numbingly disenchanting. Imagine, if to level your spells as a mage you had to use the spells not part of your setup, so you could gain any progress whatsoever, or as a melee char, using every single type of close ranged weapon just to advance in level or rank. This all contributes to lessen the fun factor when you have no choice in the matter but to follow a predetermined path, which will invariably cause people to eventually get wary and quit.

 

The naysayers need to acknowledge the fact that simply because they find it enjoyable to try out every weapon Warframe has to offer, it does not mean everyone else will. Forcibly restricting players to this format goes against the grain as the truth is that the addition of this suggestion would not at all affect those who wish to experience the game that way. You shouldn't be so selfish as to want everyone to conform to the same method of advancement. If I dont want to rank up a Lex, I shouldnt have to, but to get to mastery rank 7 and get my Acrid, I must use all the imbalanced and outdated weapons I can in order to level my mastery rank.

 

Wake up people, more options and ways to play a game is not a downside. You can play your way and others will play theres. They will be getting mastery points the same way you get your mastery points, by leveling weapons, only this way they'll enjoy it alot more.

[Phatose]

The only reward for mastery is additional weapons and/or frames to use.

 

That is why all these analogies fail so badly.  Mastery does precisely nothing other then open up the ability to use additional weapons.  It is not progress at anything whatsoever other getting more stuff to also level up.

[Rossman86]

The only reward for mastery is additional weapons and/or frames to use.

 

That is why all these analogies fail so badly.  Mastery does precisely nothing other then open up the ability to use additional weapons.  It is not progress at anything whatsoever other getting more stuff to also level up.

 

Bingo

[LasersGoPewPew]

i'd love it if we got reduced affinity per level of our forma'd equipment, it'd give me a reason to forma my hek multiple times (even though it doesn't really need it to rip enemies a new one) instead of 100 affinity per level of a forma'd weapon, 50 affinity that decreases by 5 affinity every time its' forma'd. so 50/45/40/35/30/25/20/15/10 exp per rank up, mathematically you only gain enough exp for approximately......2 weapons?......... it would net less mastery exp/epeen gain than "mastering" aka leveling a weapon to 30 and throwing it away as soon as its 30 but if someone forma'd their Hek/Gorgon 8 times they damn well deserve some affinity for releveling and mastering their weapon a total of 9 times, where as most people "master" their weapon once and throw it in the trash.

 

all arguments are invalid when that's what "mastery rank" boils down to. leveling a weapon and throwing it away like garbage. if you forma'd your weapon multiple times over because you find its' an amazing gun you better get some affinity for taking the time to do it all where as everyone else levels it to 30 by joining a defence with it equipped and doesn't even use it half the time and then sells it as soon as its "mastered" (30)

 

my two cents. +1 for gaining affinity from a forma'd weapon.

[lstalri]

That is why all these analogies fail so badly.  Mastery does precisely nothing other then open up the ability to use additional weapons.  It is not progress at anything whatsoever other getting more stuff to also level up.

In-game that's what it does, but for people who actually view other peoples profiles, it is a gauge of how far through the game people have proceeded.  Would you take the advice of a rank 4-5 mastery player or a rank 10 mastery player?  Unless you are looking for somebody to confirm your preconceptions, I'd think the rank 10. 

 

 

Every argument in that thread against a change can basically be boiled down to "no because mastery represents the amount of weapons people have leveled, you can't just play your favorites" and "no because then people would only level mastery with their best weapons". Both are really weak arguments that I already mentioned above. Neither argument has much merit in reality as you can level weapons from 0-30 without ever using them as long as you don't play alone 100% of the time. So in practice all mastery really represents is time spent with under level 30 weapons in your inventory. I leveled my sicarus to 30 and only ever shot it by accident, or when I had the data case, and then I threw it in the trash when it was done. Probably like most other people.

 

As for the argument about people only using the strongest weapons, I honestly have to wonder if anyone ever actually stops and thinks about other people's ideas before posting a reply, instead of throwing out literally the first thing that comes to their mind. I mean how many sane, normal players are going to be able to actually power through HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of mastery points using just one or two weapons without going out of their minds. EVEN THEN, did you actually stop and ask yourselves how much forma that would take? These imaginary sickos would have to either throw literal fistfulls of cash at the store to buy mass quantities of the formas, or spend the the rest of their natural lives farming them in the void.

 

Just  to throw some math in there, assuming the wiki is up to date, the current max rank is 11, with 312 000 total mastery. assuming someone maxed out every frame, that leaves 234 000 mastery points to gain through weapons, or 78 weapons/forma resets. How many people are going to farm or buy (at 20 plat a pop!) 50...60...maybe 70 formas? So as I said in my first post, if anyone has the raging desire and the mental fortitude to actually do this, do they not deserve mastery rank? For probably 99.9% of the player base, all this change would do is let people skip some uninteresting weapons, and spend some extra time with weapons they enjoy while also getting their mastery for it. Are we going to let all our decisions be dictated by the possible actions of extreme outliers that may or may not exist?

a) Effectively that's what it boils down to, everything you just said boils down to the same exact thing, so that argument didn't get you very far. 

b/c) Ok, here are some more numbers:

I myself have 334 hours of in-game time, and 204k mastery exp (just over rank 9).  I have, as often as I could, been ranking up weapons, although I've lost a lot of exp to my frames due to having not spent any money on this game yet and being limited in my inventory slots.  I have forma'd my saryn 1x, my lanka 5x, my dread 3x, and my despair 2x.  So basically, assuming you WOULD gain mastery off of forma'd items/weapons, throw on an extra 6k, 15k, 9k, and 6k exp (net 36k exp), and we get a theoretical grand total of 240k mastery exp (just under rank 10).  Give an average master exp per hour by dividing my total mastery by my total hours played: 240k/334: approx 700 mastery per hour. 

 

Now, remember that I had to:

Harvest my resources (does not give high exp (with the exception of wave 50+ defense farming)) (ei: metric fucktons of ferrite)

Farm the bosses (morphics, neural sensors, control mods, etc.)

Proceed to build said weapon. 

 

Now, as for forma:

Farm defense missions for keys (ezpz lots of free exp)

Use void keys (ezpz even more exp, unless you're rushing them, which makes this step in the process incredibly fast, still a joke of a requirement)

Farm bosses (rare materials to build morphics, pretty much the same as for a weapon)

Proceed to build forma (can only build 1 every 24 hrs, but the average player can only lvl up 3 items from 0-30 in about 72 hrs anyway, so that pretty much works out). 

 

So, with this taken into account, I'm fairly certain that I could have EASILY farmed 100+ forma by now in those 334 hours of gameplay... as it is, over the past 2 weeks I've constantly had a forma'd item/frame on me being used, as well as a brand new weapon.  I've only fallen short as of recently because I've been supporting the event instead of farming for keys/forma. 

 

In conclusion: Forma Mastery Rank farming is infinitely easier than using different weapons, especially once you get to your high rank 9 and have nothing left to level but things like hate, gorgon, kestral, and some clan tech that all take 4500-5000 ferrite each (dear God... these last few mastery ranks are gonna hurt so bad... so much ferrite T.T (yes, thats the list of weapons I have yet to build and level (most of the other stuff I've already built/already leveled and sold)). 

 

EDIT: I also feel my numbers for hours played:mastery rank are quite a bit steep.  Looking around at my friends who have been playing longer than me, somehow I seem to be catching up in rank to them despite their time played (they have more kills, that's how I know they've been around longer, since the "hours played" timer seems to have only been implemented very recently).

Edited July 8, 2013 by lstalri

[Zyfe3rX]

The only thing that is keeping us playing the game is MASTERY RANK.

And you want to have a cap on it.

 

Congratz

 

[Phatose]

In-game that's what it does, but for people who actually view other peoples profiles, it is a gauge of how far through the game people have proceeded.  Would you take the advice of a rank 4-5 mastery player or a rank 10 mastery player?  Unless you are looking for somebody to confirm your preconceptions, I'd think the rank 10. 

 

 

I would actually take the advice of whoever's speaking the most sense, no matter their rank.

 

Beyond that, meh.  Can we just stop pretending this is something other then "Make gaining mastery ranks easier"?  Cause we all know that's what it is.

[Rossman86]

In-game that's what it does, but for people who actually view other peoples profiles, it is a gauge of how far through the game people have proceeded.  Would you take the advice of a rank 4-5 mastery player or a rank 10 mastery player?  Unless you are looking for somebody to confirm your preconceptions, I'd think the rank 10. 

 

 

a) Effectively that's what it boils down to, everything you just said boils down to the same exact thing, so that argument didn't get you very far. 

b/c) Ok, here are some more numbers:

I myself have 334 hours of in-game time, and 204k mastery exp (just over rank 9).  I have, as often as I could, been ranking up weapons, although I've lost a lot of exp to my frames due to having not spent any money on this game yet and being limited in my inventory slots.  I have forma'd my saryn 1x, my lanka 5x, my dread 3x, and my despair 2x.  So basically, assuming you WOULD gain mastery off of forma'd items/weapons, throw on an extra 6k, 15k, 9k, and 6k exp (net 36k exp), and we get a theoretical grand total of 240k mastery exp (just under rank 10).  Give an average master exp per hour by dividing my total mastery by my total hours played: 240k/334: approx 700 mastery per hour. 

 

Now, remember that I had to:

Harvest my resources (does not give high exp (with the exception of wave 50+ defense farming)) (ei: metric fucktons of ferrite)

Farm the bosses (morphics, neural sensors, control mods, etc.)

Proceed to build said weapon. 

 

Now, as for forma:

Farm defense missions for keys (ezpz lots of free exp)

Use void keys (ezpz even more exp, unless you're rushing them, which makes this step in the process incredibly fast, still a joke of a requirement)

Farm bosses (rare materials to build morphics, pretty much the same as for a weapon)

Proceed to build forma (can only build 1 every 24 hrs, but the average player can only lvl up 3 items from 0-30 in about 72 hrs anyway, so that pretty much works out). 

 

So, with this taken into account, I'm fairly certain that I could have EASILY farmed 100+ forma by now in those 334 hours of gameplay... as it is, over the past 2 weeks I've constantly had a forma'd item/frame on me being used, as well as a brand new weapon.  I've only fallen short as of recently because I've been supporting the event instead of farming for keys/forma. 

 

In conclusion: Forma Mastery Rank farming is infinitely easier than using different weapons, especially once you get to your high rank 9 and have nothing left to level but things like hate, gorgon, kestral, and some clan tech that all take 4500-5000 ferrite each (dear God... these last few mastery ranks are gonna hurt so bad... so much ferrite T.T (yes, thats the list of weapons I have yet to build and level (most of the other stuff I've already built/already leveled and sold)). 

 

EDIT: I also feel my numbers for hours played:mastery rank are quite a bit steep.  Looking around at my friends who have been playing longer than me, somehow I seem to be catching up in rank to them despite their time played (they have more kills, that's how I know they've been around longer, since the "hours played" timer seems to have only been implemented very recently).

 

You're really downplaying the time it would take someone to go the forma farming route. First of all what mastery rank is a person when they can breeze through voids and farm the keys so easily? It takes an initial investment of time before that content is easy. And the formas themselves. Lets say someone found their "ultimate" weapon early and they need 50. 50 formas at a drop rate of about 12.5% according to datamined stats, which has matched up with my limited personal experience. So we can say if you're lucky, 1 forma bp every 8 runs, so about 400 void runs would be a conservative estimate. RNG being what it is, it could be much higher or lower for each individual. Then to build each forma you also have to farm 50 morphics, 50 neural sensors, 50 neurodes and 50 orokin cells. Just doing all this is bound to get you up several mastery ranks, unless you're going out of your way not to level. How many new players are even going to know any of this before they put in many hours? I was R3 or 4 before I even really understood how mastery rank worked and how to best level it up. Really in the end who would go out of their way to abuse this change and try to find some speed grinding trick to level up mastery faster? Probably the people who have nothing left to do but level through the empty mastery ranks. By empty I mean they currently unlock nothing and serve no functional purpose other than epeen.

 

I'm just north of 220 hours in and I completed my mastery R7 trial today. I have no interest going out of my way to unlock any further ranks until there's a practical reason to. Having said that, just because I've put in all this time, doesn't mean it's how all other current and future players should be forced to rank up. I would have liked to have had the option to skip several of the weapons I had no interest in if I could have. It's too late now I guess but I think it would be an improvement to the overall experience for new players. "Because I had to do it this way" is not a valid reason for refusing change, especially in beta. The game is still in a state of development and now's the time for improvements.

 

And for everyone who only plays this game to chase mastery rank, and are terrified and furious at the thought of people only using one super gun to do it, DE could put the max rank to 99, and you could all spend every waking moment farming xini with a 60 x forma Ogris until you blow your brains out.

[lstalri]

You can only build 1 forma every 24 hrs, which means 50 forma is going to take 50 days (implying you can lvl up your weapons that quickly), which is WAY MORE than enough time to straight up farm the raw resources and keys, and running them is even less of a question...

 

Did you seriously overlook that?  And even if you did keep up the rate of 1 forma a day, I doubt you can lvl up 4 items (3 weapons and the warframe) every 4 days to 30.  It probably takes closer to a week of average play time and no boosters. 

[Rossman86]

You can only build 1 forma every 24 hrs, which means 50 forma is going to take 50 days (implying you can lvl up your weapons that quickly), which is WAY MORE than enough time to straight up farm the raw resources and keys, and running them is even less of a question...

 

Did you seriously overlook that?  And even if you did keep up the rate of 1 forma a day, I doubt you can lvl up 4 items (3 weapons and the warframe) every 4 days to 30.  It probably takes closer to a week of average play time and no boosters. 

 

But who would play like that? What % of the population would ever do this? This forma-fueled single weapon powergrind is even more tedious than the standard way of leveling. I seriously question how many people would be willing to resort to this, even if we exclude everyone who isn't interested in chasing mastery just for the sake of it. You're ignoring every question except for how many hours of grinding one way has over the other. Players aren't all single minded robots foaming at the mouth at the chance to do anything possible to shave off some hours from that precious, precious mastery grind.

 

After all is said and done, the one problem you're focused on, if you could call it that at all, could easily be solved be adding diminishing exp returns for each additional forma applied to a weapon. And just like that one balanced adjustment can make sure grinding up endlessly with one weapon isn't the most efficient way to level. 

[BadAimbot]

I'll say what I said in the other thread: Mastery gives you access to more weapons, and you level it by trying out different weapons. That makes sense. If you want to use the fancy, exciting weapons, then you should use the fancy weapons that you can already use, and you'll get there. If you can't make it far enough with what you have, and don't want to try anything else, then that's DE's fault for not having enough interesting weapons.

[lstalri]

The old clan I was in, I know at least 5 people who are still rank 3 because they got their hek/grakata, furax, akbolto (now kunai, not even despair), and saryn, and now refuse to do absolutely anything else in the game because they think they're all godtier... which is a hideous lie. 

 

I'm sure other people can provide examples of people who would do this.  And if you're saying people won't re-level a single weapon for mastery, why create a middle ground?  It's been clearly stated multiple times that people who want forma to gain mastery want to use exclusively their best gear to gain it.  The only people who presented a legitimate middle ground (and very hesitantly at that) was giving the diminishing returns.