Crafting the Akbolto

[TheRealTuna]

Unlike regular games that come with price tags, F2P games NECESSARILY draw a line in the sand between F2P players and P2P players. It's unavoidable, and it's the nature of these kind of games. Both players have to be treated "well" obviously, but it's honestly more of a question of "How are we going to make people WANT to spend money on this game?" Why would you ever spend money on a game if exactly the same things are available without paying? Yes, there is the demographic of people that are either unwilling or unable to spend the hours to grind for stuff, and might buy a new warframe regardless of the price because it is convenient...but let's be honest, that is not the majority of players that play F2P games. A lot of F2P players have time, and will grind for what they want. Are people entitled to MORE because they are paying money? Well...yes! Can you really argue that P2P players aren't entitled to more than F2P players? By no means does that mean that F2P players should be treated poorly, but there must be some kind of reward for paying players.

Now, what is considered "more" is another issue. It gets kind of tricky when a thing like Orokin catalyst, which affects gameplay, is implemented in the game. Because of how different the business models are for WARFRAME and for League, WARFRAME can't just simply follow League's business model and expect to thrive. League is the most played game on earth with over 100 champs and thousands of skins for sale. WARFRAME can't rely purely on skins. So, what is "more" in a game like WARFRAME? More is comfort. More is convenience. Should I expect to be more comfortable for paying money than if I hadn't? Of course.

That said, gameplay shouldn't be restricted for F2P players. But that doesn't mean everything needs to be presented to them on a silver platter because they elected to play the game.

[lohntron39]

Are people entitled to MORE because they are paying money? Well...yes! Can you really argue that P2P players aren't entitled to more than F2P players? By no means does that mean that F2P players should be treated poorly, but there must be some kind of reward for paying players.

That said, gameplay shouldn't be restricted for F2P players. But that doesn't mean everything needs to be presented to them on a silver platter because they elected to play the game.

The entire game focuses on leveling up your weapons and warframes through combat, and collecting more weapons/warframes. That progress is halted at level 15 without an upgrade potato, and by the number of slots you have. Seeing as those are the core tenets of the game, and are restricted for F2P players, are you saying those things should be given without charge if they can be unlocked through in-game effort? After all, you're paying for convenience, so you say; and yet there is no reliable way to grind towards potatoes, or towards more slots at all.

[TheRealTuna]

I already mentioned before that the "?" Alert mission by which Orokin items are obtained definitely needs tweaking. Depending entirely on RNG is just not good gameplay. If you have the time, you should be able to grind out most of the significant stuff that P2P can get by paying.

With that said, players do not NEED to upgrade their weapons beyond Level 15 to play through content. Are you more powerful as a Level 30 frame using Level 30 weapons as compared to being a Level 15 frame using 15 Weapons? Yes, but that doesn't mean that "content is restricted." You can still clear levels without supercharging, get credits, farm blueprints, and farm crafting materials. There is no restriction of content by limiting the availability of Orokin items to F2P players.

That said, the issue of warframe/item slots is what I think is actually important. This discussion has predominately centered around Orokin items, and there hasn't really been much discussion about having warframe/item slots become available in game. Do I think F2P players should be able to grind towards warframe/item slots? Absolutely. Not allowing them to F2P players is REALLY what haults progression, not the lack of Orokin items.

[lohntron39]

With that said, players do not NEED to upgrade their weapons beyond Level 15 to play through content. Are you more powerful as a Level 30 frame using Level 30 weapons as compared to being a Level 15 frame using 15 Weapons? Yes, but that doesn't mean that "content is restricted." You can still clear levels without supercharging, get credits, farm blueprints, and farm crafting materials. There is no restriction of content by limiting the availability of Orokin items to F2P players.

The point was that the leveling up of warframes and weapons IS the content in this game; the tileset is just the decorations around the room which you do it in. A level 1 frame can be carried through any mission on any planet, and get the same rewards as someone who spent $40 on a frame and weapons; ergo nobody NEEDS anything, as clearly you can clear pluto as a level 1.

Still waiting on a dev response to the original topic of this thread, which was having a weapon (in this case, an akbolto) crafted from other potato'd weapons (in this case, a potato'd level 30 bolto and a level 1 bolto) either refund the potato or use it to upgrade the new weapon (akbolto) so that the potato is not simply lost.

Edited January 31, 2013 by lohntron39

[Rivy]

Warframes aren't too different a purchase from buying something like a Champion in League of Legends. It sells. The crafting times and gathering periods in Warframe are long and some people will buy purely because it wont suit their playtime. The price of the purchase hardly matters unless it is suddenly ridiculously expensive. People who buy this stuff don't have time to reasonably obtain the item through gameplay because of their daily routine. There are a lot of players like that.

wow, not really. A champion in LoL costs from less than $5 to something like $7.5. To me this game is more on par with the MWO beta (a new mech costing from $10 to $25).

I'm not saying that everything should be free etc (like some people apparently assume about those who say anything negative about the game's economy right now), I'm saying that the game has to feel rewarding for everyone or free players will get discouraged from the game before they get a chance to think about spending money on it.

IMO, in most cases a F2P game has to hook players in before they will shell some moneys out.

How they should do this, I don't know, but the current potato issue isn't helping ! (and losing them when you upgrade your weapon sucks big time)

edit: used the wrong word (worth=/= cost)

Edited February 2, 2013 by Rivy

[lohntron39]

Still waiting on a dev response to the original topic of this thread, which was having a weapon (in this case, an akbolto) crafted from other potato'd weapons (in this case, a potato'd level 30 bolto and a level 1 bolto) either refund the potato or use it to upgrade the new weapon (akbolto) so that the potato is not simply lost.

[lohntron39]

Back to the top.

[lohntron39]

Back to the top.

[Blatantfool]

Just saw the response from the guy who thinks LoL purchases are cheap.

My sides.

[Cegil]

Gotta say I really enjoyed reading this debate, it almost feels like it is Republican vs Democrat (both of your arguments are good by the way). Personally I feel that the created item should be super-charged as long as all of the weapons that the recipe requires are installed with Orokin tech. Otherwise you are pretty much cheating the system by using only one Orokin cell for what is essentially a combination of other weapons (in this case two boltos) as well as being superior to the original weapon(s).

I also do not feel the need for two different super-chargers (one for the warframes and another for weapons). A solution to this might be to have 'free cells' and 'prime cells', whereby prime cells grant an alteration the appearance of the weapon/warframe (also charging it) and the free ones are found more commonly but do not grant a skin upon use. This also allows the price-point for the prime cell to increase as well (as it is also an appearance modifier). Additionally, free cells can also be forged and primes can only be bought.

By the way, Orokin parts are (at time of writing) roughly $1.35 (one platinum being equivalent to .067 cents rounded), so for now I recommend spending 5 bucks for 75 plat (or better yet become a founder!) and getting a couple to support what is ultimately a small studio at a point in time when many are closing their doors.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Cegil

[lohntron39]

Gotta say I really enjoyed reading this debate, it almost feels like it is Republican vs Democrat (both of your arguments are good by the way). Personally I feel that the created item should be super-charged as long as all of the weapons that the recipe requires are installed with Orokin tech. Otherwise you are pretty much cheating the system by using only one Orokin cell for what is essentially a combination of other weapons (in this case two boltos) as well as being superior to the original weapon(s).

I also do not feel the need for two different super-chargers (one for the warframes and another for weapons). A solution to this might be to have 'free cells' and 'prime cells', whereby prime cells grant an alteration the appearance of the weapon/warframe (also charging it) and the free ones are found more commonly but do not grant a skin upon use. This also allows the price-point for the prime cell to increase as well (as it is also an appearance modifier). Additionally, free cells can also be forged and primes can only be bought.

By the way, Orokin parts are (at time of writing) roughly $1.35 (one platinum being equivalent to .067 cents rounded), so for now I recommend spending 5 bucks for 75 plat (or better yet become a founder!) and getting a couple to support what is ultimately a small studio at a point in time when many are closing their doors.

It doesn't take two catalysts to supercharge an akbolto. Also, DE is not a small studio, although the team they're using for this game is pretty much all new blood.

[lohntron39]

Back to the top for some dev to notice.

[Rivy]

Just saw the response from the guy who thinks LoL purchases are cheap.

My sides.

I didn't say "cheap". I made a point that it's cheaper than this game and MWO. I welcome evidence that proves otherwise. (Luxury skins like PFE aside, those are not the same as a frame or a gun in WF).

[Kyuzo]

only gripe i have is not being able to craft 2 bolto's at the same time so it would make getting the akbolto faster -_-

[Blatantfool]

I didn't say "cheap". I made a point that it's cheaper than this game and MWO. I welcome evidence that proves otherwise. (Luxury skins like PFE aside, those are not the same as a frame or a gun in WF).

975 RP ring a bell?

Ten bucks. Which, by the by, is roughly the same as most of the stuff in the Warframe shop. Some stuff gets a little more expensive, absolutely, but then again there isn't exactly a huge breadth of content to use as an example for what kind of spread we can expect for frames.

Don't get me wrong, I got your point brospeh. I was just yanking your chain a bit.

I wasn't talking much about price point originally, more about the type of purchase. I was implying that people would buy the Warframes or Weapons for the same reasons as a Champion in League.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Rivy]

975rp is closer to $7.5.

I do know WF doesn't have that much content right now, but neither did LoL when it first came out. My point is that while it is kinda expensive if you compare it to other F2P games, and not that expensive compared to others, most people won't drop money in it right away, and to keep them interested, to keep them hooked in, Warframe needs to feel rewarding.

Few things are more annoying than losing something you worked for because nobody told you grabbing another gun with your left hand would reset the one on your right hand.

[lohntron39]

Few things are more annoying than losing something you worked for because nobody told you grabbing another gun with your left hand would reset the one on your right hand.

This really hits the nail on the head. I'm going to just quote this from now on to bump this thread.

[Cegil]

It doesn't take two catalysts to supercharge an akbolto. Also, DE is not a small studio, although the team they're using for this game is pretty much all new blood.

I never stated that it took two catalysts to supercharge an akbolto. The akbolto is, however, akimbo boltos (weilding two of them at once). So why would it make sense to have it supercharged when only one of the two boltos used is supercharged?

And you are right about DE not being small, just looked it up. My mistake.

[Blatantfool]

I never stated that it took two catalysts to supercharge an akbolto. The akbolto is, however, akimbo boltos (weilding two of them at once). So why would it make sense to have it supercharged when only one of the two boltos used is supercharged?

And you are right about DE not being small, just looked it up. My mistake.

But you gotta admit, he has a point. The Reactors aren't something you can count on having right now. Unless DE goes full baller mode and gets rid of the large RNG element behind obtaining the Orokin items the issue really does become a matter of being asked to toilet something very, very valuable.

It is pretty valid to say "But why wouldn't I upgrade my weapon to its Akimbo state? Of course I'd want to. That is how the crafting flows. It is part of the progression."

And to be honest it is just as fair to say "Can you throw me a bone if my base item was overcharged? It isn't like I have Orokin items to throw away and it isn't like I'm going to want to just NOT progress because I've used one."

The only ways you can Supercharge is either through money spent or basically really lucking out. Both of those deserve really good treatment.

Even if the Supercharge doesn't carry over, it should warrant SOME kind of compensation. The only alternative is to have two slots taken up by what is nearly the same weapon. Having to keep the Base weapon and donate a slot to Akimbo guns isn't exactly something many people will want to do.

That is why this is such interesting discussion.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Blatantfool

[sambarpowder]

They could have limited something else, screwing with the progression in F2P is always dangerous turf and contrived obstacles are almost always a bad thing. DE can make ample amounts simply by selling cosmetic and convenience items. Overall, I think the entire system they use for weapons and equipment is bad, but there's no going back.

[Blatantfool]

They could have limited something else, screwing with the progression in F2P is always dangerous turf and contrived obstacles are almost always a bad thing. DE can make ample amounts simply by selling cosmetic and convenience items. Overall, I think the entire system they use for weapons and equipment is bad, but there's no going back.

I agree with all but the 'No going back'.

This isn't true. There is always going back, just up to DE to jump on it while it is still early. This is still technically a beta and honestly if biting the bullet and refunding some Plat is what it takes to roll back that crap and fix the game fine.

Hell, technically the don't need to do even that. They just have to stop with the rarity thing and turn it into something players can obtain consistantly with effort. That would likely solve the issue.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Blatantfool

[lohntron39]

I agree with all but the 'No going back'.

This isn't true. There is always going back, just up to DE to jump on it while it is still early. This is still technically a beta and honestly if biting the bullet and refunding some Plat is what it takes to roll back that crap and fix the game fine.

Hell, technically the don't need to do even that. They just have to stop with the rarity thing and turn it into something players can obtain consistantly with effort. That would likely solve the issue.

It's even easier if you consider that with some core things still broken, i.e. clan chat, chat in general, matchmaking, netcode, item database, this is more like a late alpha than a beta. Flip a switch and say, "We're doing it this way now, the old way was an experiment and so is this new one, we'll see which one players like more."

[Blatantfool]

It's even easier if you consider that with some core things still broken, i.e. clan chat, chat in general, matchmaking, netcode, item database, this is more like a late alpha than a beta. Flip a switch and say, "We're doing it this way now, the old way was an experiment and so is this new one, we'll see which one players like more."

I suppose that is true. I honestly can't imagine players would be too &!$$ed about drastic change so long as they don't lose any cash they've spent over it anyway.

But if we were talking drastic change all I see as worth doing right this moment would be total erasure of the whole pro system, which wouldn't change anything. It'd just take worrying about Orokin items out of the picture. That isn't exactly a horror story.

[lohntron39]

Few things are more annoying than losing something you worked for because nobody told you grabbing another gun with your left hand would reset the one on your right hand.

Back to the top for a dev response.

[lohntron39]

Few things are more annoying than losing something you worked for because nobody told you grabbing another gun with your left hand would reset the one on your right hand.

Back to the top for a dev response.