Armor And Shields.

[ShadowGhosting]

"normalize" armor ratios how? Caster frames have low armor (10), tank frames have high armor (150), and most other frames fall in between (50-100ish).

 

They are technically already "balanced" around their armor types, its just that armor in its current iteration is next to useless.

 

The gap in speed ratios was 0.8-1.6, then tweaked to 0.9-1.25. Armor I think would be reasonably tweaked to 50-100 (Just an example.) Light get 50, Heavies get 100, everything else gets 75. Then everyone gets a use out of armor, and Steel Fiber,  but still have a nice gap between light and heavy. Then factor in the difference in base shields and the heavy Warframes still have a considerable lead and feel more "tanky" then Light Warframes.

 

Right now the armor gap of 10-150 is incredibly large, but it only applies to Health, something that everyone tries to avoid taking damage to. Making it undesirable and have little impact on how you play. Like you said it's useless. So of course it's going to be equally useless across all Warframes, making them feel "balanced".

 

However, when you apply it to shields, keeping the 10-150. The difference between Light and Heavy becomes completely unbalanced. Where Light Warframes kind of maintain the current durability but heavies get buffed into infinity.

 

So just to clarify my point, I'm agreeing with you. I think armor applying to shields would be the right move, just not with the current system.

[Jintachi_Sanumai]

Do it.

[liavalenth]

The gap in speed ratios was 0.8-1.6, then tweaked to 0.9-1.25.

You make a lot of good points, but I would like to note that they could increase the difference in speed of frames back to what it was before, or greater, if armor actually had a use. As noted, heavy frames sacrifice speed which is useful for armor which is (almost) useless. If heavy frames sacrificed speed for armor, and both were useful, then it would be fine for the speed differences to be greater.

[ShadowGhosting]

You make a lot of good points, but I would like to note that they could increase the difference in speed of frames back to what it was before, or greater, if armor actually had a use. As noted, heavy frames sacrifice speed which is useful for armor which is (almost) useless. If heavy frames sacrificed speed for armor, and both were useful, then it would be fine for the speed differences to be greater.

 

I can see what your saying, but the change to speed was balancing that needed to happen. There's no point in a slow tank that can't keep up even with Rush on, if everyone else is ahead of you killing everything before you get there.

 

The change gave Rush on slower frames a greater purpose. Before a Rhino/Frost at 0.8 speed with Rush on, would only end up with 1.04, just barely edging out a few Warframes, but still being left in the dust by the majority. The fastest being Loki, with Rush equipped at 2.08. With the change Rhino/Frost can equip Rush and get 1.17, faster than all the other Warframes besides Loki. Allowing them to actually keep up to perform their duties. There's no point in casting Snow Globe or Roar, if your way in the back.

 

This is how I would like to see armor work, where equipping Steel Fiber on Light Warframes gives you more armor than the majority. Keeping balance with the fact they too can equip Steel Fiber, maintaining the gap.

[Eirshy]

I personally play Banshee as a short-range nuke using Sonar and Twin Vipers and either a Dera, Latron Prime, or Snidal. I dive into melee against infested with an Orthos. I feel tanky with just 500 shields 300 health 10 armor, and don't understand how people die so much in the majority of my runs.

 

"Tanks" aren't a thing in shooters. You are never supposed to be able to stand out in the open and soak damage because that's what a pillar or crate or wall is for. RPGs have tanks because you can't use a pillar, crate, or wall to block Magic Missile- and you almost never even *have* a pillar, crate, or wall to even *try* to block Magic Missile with (though you do tend to have iframes or taunts to make glass cannons (more) viable)

 

 

Your abilities are what really should determine your movespeed. Because this is a shooter, it's all about finding yourself a nice piece of bullet-absorbant terrain to duck behind/near and shoot from.

 

Frost? Frost makes his own terrain with Snow Globe. He can waltz into the middle of a barren room, and still have cover whenever he wants. He can even shoot out from his 360* cover, and any enemy that gets close enough to actually flank him gets hit by a gigantic slow. He doesn't need movement speed to get to cover.

 

Rhino? 1200 HP Overshield which can be resummoned and blocks staggers. He doesn't get to new cover as fast, but compared to most frames he can casually stroll to a new vantage point without having his health even touched.

 

 

If you wanna be god mode be an Ember with 91% resist all, or Trinity being rubber while they're glue. Sure, Rhino and Frost's lower ms sucks outside of combat (protip, the zorencopter does not descriminate based on movement speed), but in combat they don't need it unless you're being pants-on-head $&*&*#(%&.

 

The only problem with this, is that in very high level content tanky warframes become the only viable frames to use, as with 10 armour you die so goddamn fast.

 

That poor Banshee soloing T3...

Oh wait.

Edited July 12, 2013 by TheBlueJelly

[Winterbraid]

Sure, the super shields were nice, but I have to admit they were kinda over-the-top. My Saryn already hardly gets dented in Tower III and it's not Miasma or sniping that keeps me alive, it's Molt and running around columns (which is technically taking cover I guess, but I don't classify it as such because it has existed in about every 3D shooting game since ever). I only really ever need to hide if i run into something really ridiculous, like multiple Gunners in a single room, or two MOAs who got to release their drones, and even then her health pool dissolves most of the damage.

 

I think instead of asking for shield armor back, people should be demanding more of what I'm talking about. Nerf the enemies' ability to shoot objects that are moving perpendicular to the line of sight at a high speed (a.k.a. circle-strafing), force them to re-acquire the target when LoS is acquired and lost repeatedly, give evasion bonuses to wall-running...

 

I mean, a game about ninjas should be about evading stuff, not about standing there soaking up all the damage. In that way, Decoy and Molt are some of the most 'ninja' abilities in the game in my opinion; because with their limited health on the higher levels, they essentially serve as a substitute for the dodge mechanic that Warframe doesn't have.

 

Another nice thing would be for Trinity to not be mandatory for serious health tanking. Like another person suggested, sufficient health drops from the enemies would be nice, seen that Trinity can already convert three Energy Orbs into full health + godmode for everyone.

[CitizenV]

As for Saryn tanking better than Rhino, unmodded there's a 5:6 ratio in favour of Saryn unmodded, but Saryn has lower shields. When we bring SF into it, the result is the same-ish at rank 5 (Saryn having 1.19-something x Rhino's health) and at rank 10 it's 6:7 ratio. So, basically, Rhino only has a marginally smaller effective health pool than Saryn, but has greater shields. Oh and isn't high damage, followed up by CC exactly what Frost and Rhino have on their 4?

 

 

I'm sorry but I wanted to reply specifically about this since I'm primarily a Saryn player. According to my calculations, If we are considering fully modded Saryn and Rhino (Redirection, Vitality and Steel Fiber), Saryn actually has ~1000 more EHP than Rhino. She does have 370 less shield though, but overall, she does health tank better.

 

Anyway carry on :).

[Robotgedek]

I can see what your saying, but the change to speed was balancing that needed to happen. There's no point in a slow tank that can't keep up even with Rush on, if everyone else is ahead of you killing everything before you get there.

 

The change gave Rush on slower frames a greater purpose. Before a Rhino/Frost at 0.8 speed with Rush on, would only end up with 1.04, just barely edging out a few Warframes, but still being left in the dust by the majority. The fastest being Loki, with Rush equipped at 2.08. With the change Rhino/Frost can equip Rush and get 1.17, faster than all the other Warframes besides Loki. Allowing them to actually keep up to perform their duties. There's no point in casting Snow Globe or Roar, if your way in the back.

 

This is how I would like to see armor work, where equipping Steel Fiber on Light Warframes gives you more armor than the majority. Keeping balance with the fact they too can equip Steel Fiber, maintaining the gap.

 

Why should increase speed on heavier frame so they can catch up with the lighter frame? you should play CO-OP game, where team stick together, loot and beat enemy together. If Speed being used for survival (dodging bullet and stuff), then they only should be optimized in BATTLE, not leaving your team member behind and being hero of the day. You want speed for whole team? bring a Volt.

and if you say giving rush on slower frame is useless, its the same with say giving steel fiber to lighter frame is useless. Because it designed for specific type of frame

[wfrawn]

I'm pretty sure steel fibre saved my life yesterday. Came under heavy fire, had 80 health left (from 540 max) by the time i found cover.

So i think it's usefull.

But i also see the value of a would-be 'shield resilience' mod that some people are arguing for.

[SonicDoragon]

Why not use a bunch of ideas that were tossed out and fuse them into a larger idea? 

 

1.) Add a shield armour stat. This has a bare minimum, like armour, that varies per frame, but lets say the lowest shield armour can be is 25. It starts at 0(as it is right now) but grows as you level your frame, A.k.a. something that grows in strength along side your frame, like health, shield's, and energy.(this way newbies have another way to get passively stronger and the experienced know what limits their frame and can boost it)

This also allows the creation of a new type of tank, Shield tanks(the obvious counter to keep them from being Over Powered is a very reduced shield recharge rate).

 

2.) Create more mods based around survival or if memory serves the Devs talked about in one live stream the ability to fuse mods(or was it artifacts? regardless potential new idea!) into better ones and some of these could be results aside new mods.

Hardened Shield: Shields armour rating goes up by 10% per mod tick (Basically steel fiber for shield, best for those with a high shield armour raiting.)

Steel Plating and Shield Augmenter: Adds a solid number to armour/ Shield armour, Say +5 armour per tick.(this way frames with low Armour/ Shield armour can have a respectable way to raise armour that the % way would be pointless to consider.)

Bio-fiber: 3.5% armour per tick, but in exchange regen .15% regenerated heath every 5 seconds per tick (creates minor armour but fills in the inability to gain health back in a respectable/reliable manor)

Shield Reactor: 3.5% Shield Armour per tick, but in exchange 2.5% Faster shield regeneration per tick.(The shield alter to bio fiber, more ideally suited for shield tanks but still viable for all.)

 

3.) Give All frames an extra 2 mod slots for a total of 12 (Stick with me here for a sec it's gunna make sense). Weapons are allowed 8 slots purely for beefing that weapon up, ALL weapons no matter the size. that's a 100% mod use solely on beefing them up. A warframe is MUCH larger comparatively and yes it has 10 slots but 4 of which are used on ability's (which are suppose to make each frame stand out as it's own frame) that only scale so much(with some ability's being downright ignorable and a very small number that work in every scale), dragging it down to 6. That means 40% of a frames mod capacity is solely based on ability's and 60% on trying to make a frame better in limited regards. Now the down side to giving frames 2 more slots? limited mod number capacity. It's still 60 mod points! Now to make something infinitely useful and almost just as necessary as say potatos? Jiggys! With load-outs in the works that means you can really diversify frames to what you like/ want rather then what you need as their are, even now, plenty of mods that could be used but never/ rarely are probably because they be expensive in mod points or easy to look over for something more useful. It also opens up more alterations down the line mod wise as more are clearly going to come along (lets not forget, it was mentioned for new swap-able ability's among all frames).

 

4.) with update 9 quite literally just announced to be a few hours away, I think finding out what was added could help make this an even better thing or reduce any ideas.