Armor And Shields.

[lZerul]

"normalize" armor ratios how? Caster frames have low armor (10), tank frames have high armor (150), and most other frames fall in between (50-100ish).

 

They are technically already "balanced" around their armor types, its just that armor in its current iteration is next to useless.

[TheHeraldXII]

Ok, basically I'd ask why you want to buff tanky warframes but leave the squishy ones alone? Consider the actual consequences of increasing the gap between squishy frames and tanky frames.

Assuming these changes are implemented....

Banshee gains very little bonus from this change, she has 333 effective hp and shield unmodded.

From Redirection and Vitality she gains 44.4/rank assuming no Steel Fibre.

5 ranks in Steel Fibre will grant a 4.4% increase to hp and shield. 10 ranks will grant a 9% increase in hp and shield.

Rhino stands to gain the most, he has 750 effective hp and 1125 effective shield unmodded.

He gains 90 eff. hp from Vitality and 150 eff. shield from Redirection each rank assuming no Steel Fibre.

5 ranks of Steel Fibre will grant 37%~ additional health and shield. 10 will grant a 170% increase to hp and shield.

 

So, average effective durability for the Banshee (200% Vit. and Red.) is 555 health and 555 shield, while for the Rhino it's 1200 health and 1875 shield. Without Steel Fibre. Do you see how blatantly ridiculous that is? That and Rhino has an effective 1200 stonking health with just a rank 4 Vitality.

Let's throw in Steel Fibre for measure. On the Rhino, but not the Banshee, because 9% increase to hp+shield isn't worth 14 mod slots and noone would ever do this.

With 5 ranks, Rhino gets an effective, 1644 health and 2568.75 shield. With 10 he gets an effective 3240 health and 5062 shield. 5062 shield.

Now, let's assume someone has forma, time and cores to spend. Let's go full 10 ranks of Redirection and Vitality as well as Steel Fibre.

In that case Rhino gets 4698 effective health and 7492.5 shield. Did you read that? 7492 shield? You know how good 750 shield feels, you can have 10 times that.

Poor Banshee however has 815 health and shield with maxed out Vitality and Redirection.

Now what exactly do you need that much durability for anyway? What kind of challenge do you need these massive shield totals for? People keep saying that armour doesn't matter, well in that case I can assume that you don't lose your shields very often. Based on that I can assume that the game is appropriately challenging, maybe even easy with only 500-900 shields. Why then, do you think it's a good idea to have 1125 on an unmodded level 30 Rhino?

Oh and, if you don't think armour is awesome as it is, look back at the health totals I gave you. with 5 ranks of Steel Fibre and 4 ranks of Vitality, Rhino already has 1644 effective health. Is that not good enough? If not, why not?

 

Edit: hold on, checking math....done!

Math for effective hp (EHP) changes % to decimal. 150 base armour is 60% DR (0.6), to figure EHP the equation is: 1/(1-DR)xHP. So for Rhino armour that is 1/(1-0.6)x300 for health and 1/(1-0.6)x450 for shield. That should give you a rough idea of how I calculated all this.

Edited July 9, 2013 by TheHeraldXII

[lZerul]

I have to ask, have you gone up against higher level content at all? Tanky frame or not, you get burned down extraordinary fast by just about anything. It is the reason if you even want to attempt high level defense a Frost is mandatory.

 

Leaving the sqiushy frames out to dry? I don't see how, their jobs aren't to tank damage, their jobs are to deal it. Most of the squishier frames are generally capable of much higher damage numbers and utility then the tankier frames, they are faster and generally have larger energy pools to boot.

 

Look at how it is now, the tank frames have the following Disadvantages:

 

Low base speed

Low energy pool

Less damaging abilities (Saryn exception)

 

The advantages they gain:

 

Higher base Armor

Higher Shields (Volt exception)

 

Taking your numbers, the has less then 3 times the durability of one of the squishier frames in the game. Which means the Rhino lasts about 1-2 more bursts then a caster frame. Keep in mind how absolutely SILLY that is in the context of squishy vs tanky.

She possess a superior utility (Sonar is an immense damage augment, her 1 is a much larger CC ability), and is significantly faster. Not to mention she doesn't need Steel Fiber, and can take an actual useful Mods like Stretch, Continuity, or Fast Deflection in its place, all of which are vastly superior for the way this game is played.

[TheHeraldXII]

I have to ask, have you gone up against higher level content at all? Tanky frame or not, you get burned down extraordinary fast by just about anything. It is the reason if you even want to attempt high level defense a Frost is mandatory.

 

Leaving the sqiushy frames out to dry? I don't see how, their jobs aren't to tank damage, their jobs are to deal it. Most of the squishier frames are generally capable of much higher damage numbers and utility then the tankier frames, they are faster and generally have larger energy pools to boot.

 

Look at how it is now, the tank frames have the following Disadvantages:

 

Low base speed

Low energy pool

Less damaging abilities (Saryn exception)

 

The advantages they gain:

 

Higher base Armor

Higher Shields (Volt exception)

 

Taking your numbers, the has less then 3 times the durability of one of the squishier frames in the game. Which means the Rhino lasts about 1-2 more bursts then a caster frame. Keep in mind how absolutely SILLY that is in the context of squishy vs tanky.

She possess a superior utility (Sonar is an immense damage augment, her 1 is a much larger CC ability), and is significantly faster. Not to mention she doesn't need Steel Fiber, and can take an actual useful Mods like Stretch, Continuity, or Fast Deflection in its place, all of which are vastly superior for the way this game is played.

The thing is that the tanky frames don't need to be that tanky, they don't need to be taking hits, and Frost is still going to be a necessity for high level content because "high level defenses", by which I can only assume you mean tier 3 at wave 30+ is basically seeing how you can manipulate the game mechanics to get through situations that by all means should be impossible. And the point wasn't that Banshee should take Steel Fibre, it's that having 3 or more times the shield we already have in a game many claim to be too easy is completely absurd. We don't need it, it unbalances the 'frames to no end. I mean, c'mon, at "endgame content" damage comes mostly from guns, and how long you can use those guns without having to relocate or duck back in cover. With this change, why would anyone play any squishy 'frame. They don't do enough damage to justify the comparatively pitiful health they'd have, and battlefield manipulation is sort of a specialty of the 'frames getting the greatest buffs.

As for the Rhino lasting one or two more bursts than the Banshee, that's bollocks. I know the difference between a Banshee's durability and a Rhino's. I've played both through every mission in the game solo without recycling mods. I know how these 'frames work. The Rhino is considerably tougher and works perfectly well as a "tank" and is a damn good damage soak relative to the Banshee. All this without forcing the 'frames into standard RPG roles, which the designers have tried pretty hard to avoid.

And because I can't restate this point enough, if you don't find yourself running out of shields often, you don't need more. If you feel like being able to take more shots, play lower level missions.

[Vercinaigh]

Yes i am perfectly okay with armor applying to shields, just change it resistance so that the term makes more sense.

[modded]

The thing is that the tanky frames don't need to be that tanky, they don't need to be taking hits, and Frost is still going to be a necessity for high level content because "high level defenses", by which I can only assume you mean tier 3 at wave 30+ is basically seeing how you can manipulate the game mechanics to get through situations that by all means should be impossible. And the point wasn't that Banshee should take Steel Fibre, it's that having 3 or more times the shield we already have in a game many claim to be too easy is completely absurd. We don't need it, it unbalances the 'frames to no end. I mean, c'mon, at "endgame content" damage comes mostly from guns, and how long you can use those guns without having to relocate or duck back in cover. With this change, why would anyone play any squishy 'frame. They don't do enough damage to justify the comparatively pitiful health they'd have, and battlefield manipulation is sort of a specialty of the 'frames getting the greatest buffs.

As for the Rhino lasting one or two more bursts than the Banshee, that's bollocks. I know the difference between a Banshee's durability and a Rhino's. I've played both through every mission in the game solo without recycling mods. I know how these 'frames work. The Rhino is considerably tougher and works perfectly well as a "tank" and is a damn good damage soak relative to the Banshee. All this without forcing the 'frames into standard RPG roles, which the designers have tried pretty hard to avoid.

And because I can't restate this point enough, if you don't find yourself running out of shields often, you don't need more. If you feel like being able to take more shots, play lower level missions.

So, instead of b******* about a suggestion you don't like, come up with a BETTER suggestion. So much rage in this thread.

 

While sure is Banshee is quite a bit squishier than Rhino (both of mine are potatoed and rank 30), that doesn't change the fact that almost no one uses a armor mods. The only reason armor on shields is biased towards tanky frames is that steel fiber is multiplicative atm. While this is not the perfect solution maybe, it doesn't change the fact that Rhino "felt" more like a tank than trinity or ember for once (aside from shields obviously). And IMHO don't even talk about "easyness", the devs have already admtited there isn't much of an endgame (high-lvl defense doesn't count, as it's biased towards specific warframe with uber defesive powers).

Edited July 9, 2013 by modded

[lZerul]

There are already several reasons to play lighter frames then tankier ones as it stands. As I pointed out, most of them have better damage, energy pools, and all of them possess greater speed.

 

As it stands, all the attributes the tanky frames sacrifice is a trade-off for armor, which only serves as a gimmick to save your life when you screw up.

 

The only thing that attributes to the actual tankiness of both the Frost and the Rhino are their abilities, something almost entirely separate from their attributes.

 

As for the "BS I've played those frames" response, don't act like I haven't. I own every single warframe in the game and have all of them at 30 and potatoed up. I've used all of them at late game content, and I can safely say the armor on the Rhino and the Frost doesn't mean anything. A high level Corpus Tech is still going to annihilate you when you wiggle your toe outside that Snow Globe.

 

God forbid you get knocked over by a shockwave Moa anywhere near a group of high level enemies, 1k+ shield and your 600+ health pool will disappear before you can even get close to standing up if they are paying attention to you.

 

A tanky frame is supposed to be able to take punishment, otherwise why even highlight their armor and high shields at all? Why bother when you can just take any faster frame and zoom around enemy groups and avoid fire behind cover with your superior speed. The fact that the Rhino and Frost are forced to do the same is a clear indication armor isn't doing its job, at all.

 

It isn't like with armor applying to shields that they suddenly become invincible against higher level content, I just want them to be able to survive taking a realistic level of punishment without having to hug cover 24/7.

 

Their ponderous pace needs to be justified somehow, and the current way armor works certainly isn't it.

[Lambda_217]

Armor affecting shields felt great when it was on. As Frost and Rhino, I actually felt tough and not just a fat man, when I wasn't using my defense powers.

 

It also meant heavy frames played even more differently from lighter frames, which was super nice.

 

I know it was removed because it was a bug, but I really hope a balanced version of armored shields comes out at some point.

[eSmokefish]

Just throwing in my +1 in favor of armor affecting shields. If 'Armor' as a name is too hard to justify affecting shields, rename it Resilience or Resistance. Hek, even if only half of it applied to shields it would be nice for the slower, bulkier frames.

[TheHeraldXII]

So, instead of b******* about a suggestion you don't like, come up with a BETTER suggestion. So much rage in this thread.

 

While sure is Banshee is quite a bit squishier than Rhino (both of mine are potatoed and rank 30), that doesn't change the fact that almost no one uses a armor mods. The only reason armor on shields is biased towards tanky frames is that steel fiber is multiplicative atm. While this is not the perfect solution maybe, it doesn't change the fact that Rhino "felt" more like a tank than trinity or ember for once (aside from shields obviously). And IMHO don't even talk about "easyness", the devs have already admtited there isn't much of an endgame (high-lvl defense doesn't count, as it's biased towards specific warframe with uber defesive powers).

I did, the suggestion was "don't fix what isn't broken". Consider if we phrased the change another way; "Nerf enemy damage by an average or 33%". Does that sound reasonable to you? It doesn't to me. On average, ignoring SF, that's the change you'll see in game, but on top of that, squishy 'frames get comparatively nerfed for no explainable reason. Are tank frames currently underpowered? Is Ember so OP that she needs to get hit with the nerf stick? I want people to consider the changes to the game beyond Rhino and Frost becoming nearly invincible.

[lZerul]

So you are totally fine with the Rhino and Frost currently having the lowest mobility in the game with no benefit?

 

Pointing out the Ember alone shows exactly how bad it is for their innate tankiness. Ember's ability gives her damage reduction on shield and armor, and is flat out a better ability to tank damage with on a caster frame, who has a larger energy pool and is faster then either the Frost or Rhino.

 

Lighter frames would be by no means underpowered (except for those that already needed work), and this would hardly make the tank frames even close to invincible against higher level content.

Edited July 10, 2013 by lZerul

[TheHeraldXII]

Well, basically yeah, because they also have the highest innate durability, because of their armour. Speed helps you get out of tight situations, which is one way of dealing with incoming fire, being able to survive a fair while after your shields go down is another. If you spend a lot of time popping in and out of cover in order to never lose shields, you don't need mobility, you're not using it.

As for lighter frames not being underpowered, it's worth remembering that the only reference of power is the other frames, and after adding armour to shields, everything gets to be stronger than the low armour frames. So yes, it would make them underpowered, or tougher frames overpowered. Same thing really.

I've spent plenty of time using a Rhino and a Frost and I know perfectly well how they handle Tower III content, and there's a pretty big difference between their durability and the next frame in line. My most frequent play partner also happens to seem pretty happy to play a Saryn with Steel Fibre through the highest 3 non-void systems without any regard for cover. He honestly just takes the hits to his health because once you have a decent health pool and SF, you actually can health-tank pretty well. I have never seen him drop down below 350 hp while doing this. No shield regen, all combat, all the time.

Edited July 10, 2013 by TheHeraldXII

[lZerul]

Your own experience clearly differs from a vast majority of the players on the forums if upvotes are any indication.

 

If lack of scaling on defensive attributes on shield and Iron Skin weren't such a big deal, then scaling defensive abilities like Snow Globe wouldn't be outright mandatory to defend a position. The current state of the game encourages damage avoidance (using cover, abilities that eliminate damage outright) instead of damage soaking (Iron Skin, Armor).

 

A Saryn with Steel Fiber ironically health tanks much better then the Rhino and Frost simply because it has a much larger health pool then either. I am also willing to bet your friends success with health tanking has more to do with Saryn's 4 vaporizing most enemies and CC-ing the survivors then it does with the viability of health tanking in general.

 

As for mobility meaning nothing, tell that to every Frost/Rhino who has been left behind by rushers who just zoom past every enemy on the level leaving them behind. Speed makes it easier to avoid enemies outright, or react to their presence better in general. The ponderous pace of the tank frames really aren't justified with just armor, especially when they both have average health pools.

Edited July 10, 2013 by lZerul

[TheHeraldXII]

Well, if the current state of the game encourages damage avoidance, which encourages smart play instead of just standing in the open, why would we want extra durability? Tanky frames already have a larger effective health pool, even if people only play using the regenerating portion. Really I think that comes down to an issue of playstyle. When I rock the Rhino I tend to take more health damage than on other frames, because I play much more aggressively, knowing that I can get away with it. Basically this comes down to the fact that my Rhino has 1250 effective health to spend throughout the level while my Excal for example has 666.67. I can take twice as much damage to my health.

 

As for Saryn tanking better than Rhino, unmodded there's a 5:6 ratio in favour of Saryn unmodded, but Saryn has lower shields. When we bring SF into it, the result is the same-ish at rank 5 (Saryn having 1.19-something x Rhino's health) and at rank 10 it's 6:7 ratio. So, basically, Rhino only has a marginally smaller effective health pool than Saryn, but has greater shields. Oh and isn't high damage, followed up by CC exactly what Frost and Rhino have on their 4?

 

While I don't disagree that it's annoying to be left behind, I don't see how being an invincible hambeast is going to help much to make that tradeoff worth it. If you get left behind you don't get to fight and your stats, good or bad, don't matter anymore. I also never said mobility is worthless, I just said that you're trading one way of mitigating damage for another, and not at a bad exchange rate either. Using Volt vs Rhino as an example, because they have the same health, shield and energy pools. Volt has 333.33 health unmodded, Rhino has 750, more than twice that. This means that if and when your shield goes down, Rhino can take 2.25x the damage. Combine that with Iron Skin for a free 1200 overshield and Rhino Stomp to give you breathing room and you've got one tough customer, even out in the open.

 

Anyway, the main reason I'm arguing against armour scaling on shields is because I feel like it would drastically alter the balance of the game as it is, making high armour frames the only viable choice. Tough 'frames would simply be too tough in that case, it scales them too far. In addition to that, the entire game, start to finish would become way too easy if everything in the game were to suddenly do 33% less damage on average. We only just got some respectably challengin content in the way of T3's, I don't see how any good could come of toning that down. Also, keep in mind that while you want to let people stand in the open and absorb shots like it's nothing, the fact that you can still take cover will trivialise most every enemy in the game at every level.

 

P.S. Defenses aren't a good example of endgame content and durability scaling because the issue isn't keeping the players alive, it's mostly working on keeping them from shooting the pod.

Edited July 10, 2013 by TheHeraldXII

[Lambda_217]

That's a really good argument, Herald. Still, it'd be nice if shields got 25% or so of your armor. It'd be subtle enough to make Steel Fiber make a difference and give fatframes a slight edge, without making them bulletproof.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Lambda217

[Excitonex]

If shields used a separate armor rating that was also increased by steel fiber then it would makes shields more useful without making them infinitely better than health.

[lZerul]

I'd be perfectly fine with an independent defensive rating for frames myself, but Herald, you seem to be under the (mistaken) impression that having armor apply to shields will magically make the heavy frames invincible. With how damaging higher level enemies are, this would hardly be the case at all.

 

If damage avoidance and "skillful play" is the name of the game, then what purpose does the largely neglected Armor attribute serve in the first place?

 

If damage tanking isn't the way the game isn't mean to be played for heavier frames, why do abilities and attributes like Iron Skin and Armor even exist? More mobile frames are better capable of this style of game play, leaving the reverse of the situation you seem to be imagining up: tanky frames can't realistically absorb damage at end-game, but lighter frames can still avoid damage from start to finish.

 

The problem as it stands is the tank frames pay for their armor heavily, trading off mobility for a damage absorption stat that doesn't do its jobs particularly well. Mobility > Armor, and unless the situation changes, it will remain that way and the tank frames will suffer for it.

Edited July 10, 2013 by lZerul

[TheHeraldXII]

That's a really good argument, Herald. Still, it'd be nice if shields got 25% or so of your armor. It'd be subtle enough to make Steel Fiber make a difference and give fatframes a slight edge, without making them bulletproof.

That's a good idea actually, makes both sides happy. I can't see how 37-75 armour on shields would break the game but I can certainly see it making Rhino players happier in high level missions.

[Leyden]

i actualy like armor the way it is now

[Denzine]

Or they could make enemies drop health.

 

That'd work too.

[Tatersail]

+65 the community seems to agree!

 

+1 more

 

:)

 

 

I thought this was an amazing change for the better, I got my steel fire mod out for the first time ever.

Armor was suddenly a stat that meant something.

 

 

then... its a bug????  really?

Edited July 10, 2013 by Tatersail

[Sada_no_Fujin]

Please?

[AttackNitro]

The only problem with this, is that in very high level content tanky warframes become the only viable frames to use, as with 10 armour you die so goddamn fast.

[Fog_Ducker]

id +1 if u werent at +69

Edit: since people were discussing the viability of stacking health why not make a mod that changes a % of shield regen rate to health regen rate?

Edited July 10, 2013 by TastesLikeGoat

[SkipSandwich]

I support this, especially in the form suggested earlier of giving frames both Armor and Shield-Armor (let's call it 'Deflection'), in addition to health and shield power.  deflection could range in tiers of 75/25/5 to compare to armor's values of 150/50/10. This could also introduce a new stat paradigm, the Shield Tank, capable of surviving sudden spikes of damage pretty well, but bad at soaking sustained fire (currently, Mag and Volt would fit this, with thier average/low health and armor but high shields).