We need a Conclave Rework!

[Avatar_of_War]

On 2/5/2017 at 0:57 PM, -----LegioN----- said:

-snip

You made valid points good sir and very polite while doing so. I'm not gonna quote everything, but you are right. I am not claiming to be an expert in conclave and I lack the experience needed to actually argue how skills actually work in pvp compare to pve, but I still stand by my point that abilities should be removed. Not just because I still stand that some abilities are still stronger than others, it put newer players at a disadvantage when they don't know how their skills will work compare to pve, and they will get crushed mercilessly. Sure you can pratice and get better and start enjoying it, but why do you have to put the time in before you enjoy it? Might as well just remove it and let players focus on killing each other with weapons like how quick steel is doing it, and that's one of the point I actually like about it.

 

About the weapons part, I am not saying a weapon is useless because it does not fit my style. I called it useless because the base stats are very poor. It better to use weapons with high base stats than braton or soma, because you need to hit a lot to actually kill someone with their low damage and with the game movements system that is highly unlikely, especially with new people who are used to shoot more grounded enemies and some weapons are just plain bad with their stats. I mean dont you need to have great aim if you want to shoot some1 that is jumping around with a soma or braton? Not to mention some1 can sneak up on you if u stand still to shoot, and chase that person around doesnt exactly help with the aiming. I tried, it's not exactly pleasant. Remove customization, or use it for personal reference wont help when you find out how ineffective your weapons are when shooting opponent who are jumping around and they would change to some hard hitting weapons instead anyway.

 

And you are right, those who play warframe for pve often times find themselves out of their elements while doing pvp. While the two are similar, they have different paces about them. PVE is much faster and more chaotic, while PVP actually slow you down and have you think before making your move, like in a normal fighting game. While some of the statements are not true, there is a degree of learning in pvp, and you need to learn some of it to get some fun out of this, but for some who just want to shoot someone they propably won't enjoy this very much. I would love to see this become something everyone can enjoy though and not just ppl who invested in it. It can be something fun too for new players and I want that. Maybe it will be someday.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Avatar_of_War

[Stormdragon]

1 hour ago, Avatar_of_War said:

[...]I still stand by my point that abilities should be removed. Not just because I still stand that some abilities are still stronger than others, it put newer players at a disadvantage when they don't know how their skills will work compare to pve, and they will get crushed mercilessly.

Sir, that's what player progression is about. I can't expect picking up a frame like trinity for the very first time and perform as good as someone who has weeks, months, or years using her. This applies for both, PvE and PvP. Once again, removing powers from the actual conclave, where we are supposed to use everything we have learned in the game (mobility, aiming, tracking, power usage, energy management, etc.) To outplay our enemies is basically removing warframe from it's own. The fact that pve allows us to go ahead with no need of said skills is another can of worms (^***all you need in pve is learning how to mod, which is not rocket science and even if you can't figure out how to mod something there's a lot of guides and helpful players out there^***) just look at the amount of complaints from players who can't finish mastery ranks requiring some parkour maneuvers taught on the tutorial and then rarely used again

Also don't forget that inexperienced players should be matched with others in their same situation, reason why recruit conditioning was implemented (the idea is good but still needs some improvements, imo). 

2 hours ago, Avatar_of_War said:

About the weapons part, I am not saying a weapon is useless because it does not fit my style. I called it useless because the base stats are very poor. It better to use weapons with high base stats than braton or soma, because you need to hit a lot to actually kill someone with their low damage and with the game movements system that is highly unlikely, especially with new people who are used to shoot more grounded enemies and some weapons are just plain bad with their stats. I mean dont you need to have great aim if you want to shoot some1 that is jumping around with a soma or braton? Not to mention some1 can sneak up on you if u stand still to shoot, and chase that person around doesnt exactly help with the aiming. I tried, it's not exactly pleasant. Remove customization, or use it for personal reference wont help when you find out how ineffective your weapons are when shooting opponent who are jumping around and they would change to some hard hitting weapons instead anyway.

Thing is, automatic weapons like soma, braton, karak, etc. Have low damage per shot since those offer a lot of chances to hit your target making them work in a way that, if your target barely moves, they will still dying very fast, same if you can actually keep track of them, and that's where player skills kick in.

You can't compare weapons only looking at their damage, you can't forget that weapons like opticor require a lot of aiming and tracking or at least being able to time it's charge to hit an enemy to kill it, while daikyu requires the player to charge shots (which unlike in other bows is automatically cancelled after a few seconds), aim for the target and lead shots, being both cases where missin id heavily punished by another charge time before being able to attack again (while soma, braton and karak can keep spraying bullets at you and chewing your life with each hit) Once again, different weapons for different skills, preferences, situations and enemies where flexibility and customization plays an important role.

3 hours ago, Avatar_of_War said:

And you are right, those who play warframe for pve often times find themselves out of their elements while doing pvp. While the two are similar, they have different paces about them. PVE is much faster and more chaotic, while PVP actually slow you down and have you think before making your move, like in a normal fighting game

I agree with pve being more chaotic, but mostly due to the amount of eye candy on it, power spam and enemies constantly spawning in huge numbers. Similar thing with pve being faster than pvp since it all depends on how your squad is playing; I wouldn't call "fast paced" to camp a hall or stand on a box while mashing 1234 to shred everything around, nor to a "race to extraction" on rescue or exterminate missions and even on those races I've never found anyone using +mobility mods to go faster). Has mobility been toned down for pvp? Sure, but mostly on tanky frames and for balance purposes (iirc, I explained it on my previous post) light frames can still move faster than vanilla pve movement even after the removal of additional mobility on elemental bullet jump mods, and this is the actual reason why I said that pvp mobility has already been slowed down. Being able to move faster doesn't remove the need to plan your next movements, it just makes you do it faster, increasing your chances to end in the bottom of a pit.

3 hours ago, Avatar_of_War said:

While some of the statements are not true, there is a degree of learning in pvp, and you need to learn some of it to get some fun out of this, but for some who just want to shoot someone they propably won't enjoy this very much.

Could you point what statements are not true? it would help a lot in order to discuss them further. Said that, I guess PvP has more learning than PvE, the explaination can be found above, on the first part of this response (between the "^***") And even with that in mind, you don't need to learn or improve that much to have fun. Just toss your ego aside, stop thinking that you're a god with the ability to obliterate hordes of enemies with a single movement of your hands, and only then go to conclave, where being killed over and over again will help you to figure out some things and try some others until you'll eventually start getting good and enjoying the game even more since defeats teach way more than victories but well, sadly the PvE mindset (I'm an untouchable god on this battlefield) doesn't help much to encourage players to keep improving after reaching certain point. 

3 hours ago, Avatar_of_War said:

I would love to see this become something everyone can enjoy though and not just ppl who invested in it. It can be something fun too for new players and I want that. Maybe it will be someday.

I'd love it if conclave got more love too, but then again, my joy on any competition shouldn't come from being able wreck everyone (even the top players like Sneazle, Seiguro, Livjatan, Pythadragon, Lilicon, Subject, SevenLetterKword or Witchydragon) in my first match like most PvE players seem to want; It should come after realizing how much I've improved on my time spent trying to get better and realizing that top players can't kill me as easy as they did before since now I'm becoming able to stand a fight against them and eventually even beat them. Realizing that time spent is giving fruits and using the skills learnt in pvp to stand out in pve should be enough reason to enjoy the conclave, but no matter how many balances, improvements or reworks are done here, I can't see it happening until the community finally changes it's mind towards being defeated.

Just think a little bit about it.

[INQBUS_11]

There is just NO WAY that DE would be able to balance out all the abilities, mods, weapons inside the conclave. If they could ever achieve that, it would be the greatest PvP game on the face of this Earth. Period. We, as players, MUST look at the conclave in a different light. I really don't understand why so many people want PvE progression to carry over from co-op to the conclave, or vice versa.

A lot of people want Warframe to be great, balanced, and meaningful in BOTH PvE and PvP. Unfortunately, there is no MMO or online games out there that can do this. No matter what, Warframe will forever be a PvE oriented game, and the Conclave will never be as good or profound as its PvE experience. As the game stands right now, there could never be a ranked arena or battlegrounds as it would be impossible to balance everything while keeping all the complexities of warframe abilities, weapons and mods. We must first face this reality, and, as players, must make a decision how we will conceive the role of the Conclave in this game. We can either continue to expect the Conclave to evolve into a perfectly balanced and richly rewarding PvP experience, or we could look at it as a fun mini-game that plays a little differently from the PvE counterpart. 

Now, I suggest you try the latter, because if you continue to place high hopes on getting a well-balanced PvP with all the diverse weapons, mods, and abilities, you will be forever disappointed as there is 0 possibility that will ever happen. If the players are ready to abandon their gear, warframe, mod progression from coop mode, then it will be easier for DE to provide a balanced, meaningful PvP experience more easily. By doing so, the Conclave will never be as profound or deep as the more complex PvE experience, but, at least, the Conclave can finally develop into a great game mode that can be played IN ADDITION to the PvE mode and not necessarily IN CONJUNCTION with the co-op mode.

With this said, I think DE should do the following to cut down all the complex mechanics and systems so that PvP in this game could at least become an enjoyable auxiliary game mode, if not one of central parts of the game experience: 

1. Disable all 4 abilities and give each Warframe a single, unique PvP ability that can ONLY be used inside the Conclave. This will be a lot easier for DE to balance the discrepancy between Warframes. IMHO, if this can't be done, just remove all the abilities from the Conclave. I'd rather have a fun, balanced Third Person Shooter experience than simply pressing 1,2,3,4 to win against warframes with shortcoming ability kits.  

2. Weapons of the same type (rifles, launchers, shotguns) should have exactly the same stats (same damage per tick, rate of fire, recoil). The actual weapon that you have equipped on your Conclave Arsenal will only serve as a weapon skin. In this way you can bring in the cosmetics of your weapon from your PvE progression but at the same time prevent you from breaking the balance by bringing in weapons with OP stats. 

3. Only 2 Mods can be equipped on Primary and Secondary slots to configure your weapon to your liking, but in a very subtle way (i.e. full-auto mode for slower rifles, less spread for shotguns, higher fire rate for snipers, and etc.). 

4. Only 2 mods can be equipped on your Warframe (i.e. faster warframe, less sliding friction warframe, slightly more health frame, or whatever, but difference should also be very subtle).

5. Only double jump, slide, cliff hanging, sprinting is allowed. Bullet jumps and other parkour may be equipped as one of 2 mods that could be equipped on warframe. 

6. Melee weapon is partially disabled, and only quick melee is allowed while using either Primary or Secondary Weapon. Just like primary and secondary weapons, melee weapons from PvE mode will only serve as a weapon skin. But, different melee weapon types can have different perks (i.e. Swords - chance for slash proc on hit, Fists - stagger on hit, Daggers - faster quick melee speed, Two Hand weapons - more damage when landing, and etc.) 

For the love of god, it's too late for Warframe to ever create a perfect PvP experience where players can fully immerse themselves in. if there is no way to balance out all the complex systems and varieties that exist in PvE mode, just simply give them up and at least let the players be able to enjoy a slightly dumbed down version of the gameplay that could be more easily managed and balanced. IMO, this is the only way to make the Conclave viable. Once again, I urge the players to stop expecting Warframe to develop into a perfect PvP game with all the elements in the co-op mode, but simply hope that conclave will evolve into a subtle, but a very enjoyable addition to many gameplay modes that exist in this game.

[Scarecrow]

2 hours ago, ASH_BLUE said:

-snip

http://prntscr.com/ekpuvo

*wheeze*

 

[INQBUS_11]

17 minutes ago, Pariahdragon said:

http://prntscr.com/ekpuvo

*wheeze*

 

Destiny: http://imgur.com/a/5N0sC

I'm a PvP lover and I only PvP in Destiny, and haven't touched Conclave since I started Warframe at the end of last year. I entered the conclave as MR 2 and got out in 3 min. It's funny you looked up my Conclave stats in an all-out PvE game. I feel almost sorry for you that you are spending time to stalk other people's stats on forums, rather than discussing the topic. LMFAO. But, with all due respect, get a life, girl, and stay off.

"wheeze"    

 

[Scarecrow]

5 minutes ago, ASH_BLUE said:

-snip this garbage

So you decided to necro a thread in the middle of the week with inaccurate information while fully aware that you weren't experienced enough to actually validate this information?

Jesus Christ.

[--.69-JP3GMD-69.nVbs.--]

15 minutes ago, ASH_BLUE said:

Destiny: http://imgur.com/a/5N0sC

I'm a PvP lover and I only PvP in Destiny, and haven't touched Conclave since I started Warframe at the end of last year. I entered the conclave as MR 2 and got out in 3 min. It's funny you looked up my Conclave stats in an all-out PvE game. I feel almost sorry for you that you are spending time to stalk other people's stats on forums, rather than discussing the topic. LMFAO. But, with all due respect, get a life, girl, and stay off.

"wheeze"    

 

 

The funniest part was this crap about mods and stuff - do you even know how well-balanced Conclave is?

Plese go away and don't try to make this game a clone of the game that got awful PvP balance (bye bye matador64 welcome wormwood)

You got no experience to even come up with ideas about conclave. Just play 100h of it, come back and say sorry afterwards, ktxbai

[INQBUS_11]

1 minute ago, Pariahdragon said:

So you decided to necro a thread in the middle of the week with inaccurate information while fully aware that you weren't experienced enough to actually validate this information?

Jesus Christ.

I got into Warframe cause my roommate played it, used his account to play some games at Conclave and coop, and you don't need to be an experienced rank 1 pvp'er to discuss future changes and suggestions. Now, I didn't provide a single information in my post; I just made a speculation that, in my opinion and perspective, most people seem to ignore the fact how difficult it is to balance the system with all the complexities involved. Based on this speculation, I simply made some suggestions not information on how to cut down some of the obstacles that is hindering PvP balance.

It may have gone astray from the immediate previous post, but, for one thing, it's better than lurking around in the forum, stalking other ppl, searching them on logs, and posting something that is derailing the entire post from an ongoing discussion. 

And middle of the week? Would it have been better if I made the post in the weekend? But, for the love of god, just message me if you wanna stalk, I'll stop posting about this too.

 

[(XBOX)Y0DA PRiME]

3 minutes ago, murdello said:

The funniest part was this crap about mods and stuff - do you even know how well-balanced Conclave is?

Plese go away and don't try to make this game a clone of the game that got awful PvP balance (bye bye matador64 welcome wormwood)

You got no experience to even come up with ideas about conclave. Just play 100h of it, come back and say sorry afterwards, ktxbai

Well said my friend well said

Edited March 16, 2017 by (XB1)LYCANPRiM3

[Scarecrow]

1 minute ago, ASH_BLUE said:

I got into Warframe cause my roommate played it, used his account to play some games at Conclave and coop, and you don't need to be an experienced rank 1 pvp'er to discuss future changes and suggestions. Now, I didn't provide a single information in my post; I just made a speculation that, in my opinion and perspective, most people seem to ignore the fact how difficult it is to balance the system with all the complexities involved. Based on this speculation, I simply made some suggestions not information on how to cut down some of the obstacles that is hindering PvP balance.

 

You need experience in any game in order to discuss changes about it.

You do not have experience in this game, therefore you're not allowed to argue changes that are this harsh and would change the entire point of the mode.

Don't plead ignorant, you know exactly where your arguments are flawed.

(also admitting the fact that you've been sharing accounts with your roommate in a public thread lol)

Edited March 16, 2017 by Pariahdragon

[--.69-JP3GMD-69.nVbs.--]

also all you info about conclave is outdated as hell :)

[squidd]

3 hours ago, ASH_BLUE said:

For the love of god, it's too late for Warframe to ever create a perfect PvP experience where players can fully immerse themselves in.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I joined Warframe because I thought it would have awesome PvP, and when Conclave recaptured my interest later down the road, I was immediately hooked. I find the PvE missions brainlessly easy, but not too bad to waste time and listen to music in. To me, PvP is the real action, and PvE is like target practice for new recruits, but without the targets because numerous common combinations of frames/weapons nullify any skill. When I think of horde shooters, I imagine Left 4 Dead or Painkiller. Warframe looks like it could really be an exciting horde shooter to add to the list, but the common "easiest way to kill everything with no effort" mentality kills the PvE game mode for me. Warframe doesn't seem like a "PvE game at its core" to me, but rather a "completionist" game where everyone seems to grind for and collect all the items and then complain about new content for them to collect being "DElayed".

I fully immerse myself in PvP and only play PvE when I'm forced to in order to collect resources to build a new weapon for Conclave. Compare that to the players who are "forced" to play Conclave for one of many cosmetic items that they may or may not ever wear. We want players in our high-skill ceiling, steep learning curve PvP, not people who will complain because it is difficult to collect their freebies.

"I'm a PvP lover and I only PvP in Destiny, and haven't touched Conclave since I started Warframe at the end of last year. I entered the conclave as MR 2 and got out in 3 min."

This doesn't qualify as an understanding of Conclave's balance structure. Conclave is incredibly balanced in terms of weapon comparisons and the mobility structure. I understand many weapons and frames in PvE are direct upgrades, completely removing any validity to using Paris over Paris Prime, or Banshee over Banshee Prime, or Paris over Dread, Braton over Soma, and so on. PvP allows any and all of these weapons/frames to be just as viable as one another, being very balanced with the mobility that Warframe involves. The only real threats to the balance of Warframe are PvE mechanics and new additions that have yet to be properly field tested in a PvP environment, or cannot really be changed much without complete removal in favor of balance (cold procs....).

I do urge you to take some time to research and learn about Conclave in its current state, because in all honesty, one can know everything there is to know about Warframe's PvE and Destiny's PvP, but still know nothing about Conclave's weapon type and combat style balances. There are very few (probably 1 or 2) things in Warframe that are not viable in PvP, and you make it seem like the entire game mode is forsaken. That seems to be the real issue behind most of these "Conclave rework" threads.

Edited March 16, 2017 by squidd

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

5 hours ago, ASH_BLUE said:

A. There is just NO WAY that DE would be able to balance out all the abilities, mods, weapons inside the conclave. If they could ever achieve that, it would be the greatest PvP game on the face of this Earth. Period. We, as players, MUST look at the conclave in a different light. I really don't understand why so many people want PvE progression to carry over from co-op to the conclave, or vice versa.

B. A lot of people want Warframe to be great, balanced, and meaningful in BOTH PvE and PvP. Unfortunately, there is no MMO or online games out there that can do this. No matter what, Warframe will forever be a PvE oriented game, and the Conclave will never be as good or profound as its PvE experience. As the game stands right now, there could never be a ranked arena or battlegrounds as it would be impossible to balance everything while keeping all the complexities of warframe abilities, weapons and mods. We must first face this reality, and, as players, must make a decision how we will conceive the role of the Conclave in this game. We can either continue to expect the Conclave to evolve into a perfectly balanced and richly rewarding PvP experience, or we could look at it as a fun mini-game that plays a little differently from the PvE counterpart. 

C. Now, I suggest you try the latter, because if you continue to place high hopes on getting a well-balanced PvP with all the diverse weapons, mods, and abilities, you will be forever disappointed as there is 0 possibility that will ever happen. If the players are ready to abandon their gear, warframe, mod progression from coop mode, then it will be easier for DE to provide a balanced, meaningful PvP experience more easily. By doing so, the Conclave will never be as profound or deep as the more complex PvE experience, but, at least, the Conclave can finally develop into a great game mode that can be played IN ADDITION to the PvE mode and not necessarily IN CONJUNCTION with the co-op mode.

With this said, I think DE should do the following to cut down all the complex mechanics and systems so that PvP in this game could at least become an enjoyable auxiliary game mode, if not one of central parts of the game experience: 

1. Disable all 4 abilities and give each Warframe a single, unique PvP ability that can ONLY be used inside the Conclave. This will be a lot easier for DE to balance the discrepancy between Warframes. IMHO, if this can't be done, just remove all the abilities from the Conclave. I'd rather have a fun, balanced Third Person Shooter experience than simply pressing 1,2,3,4 to win against warframes with shortcoming ability kits.  

2. Weapons of the same type (rifles, launchers, shotguns) should have exactly the same stats (same damage per tick, rate of fire, recoil). The actual weapon that you have equipped on your Conclave Arsenal will only serve as a weapon skin. In this way you can bring in the cosmetics of your weapon from your PvE progression but at the same time prevent you from breaking the balance by bringing in weapons with OP stats. 

3. Only 2 Mods can be equipped on Primary and Secondary slots to configure your weapon to your liking, but in a very subtle way (i.e. full-auto mode for slower rifles, less spread for shotguns, higher fire rate for snipers, and etc.). 

4. Only 2 mods can be equipped on your Warframe (i.e. faster warframe, less sliding friction warframe, slightly more health frame, or whatever, but difference should also be very subtle).

5. Only double jump, slide, cliff hanging, sprinting is allowed. Bullet jumps and other parkour may be equipped as one of 2 mods that could be equipped on warframe. 

6. Melee weapon is partially disabled, and only quick melee is allowed while using either Primary or Secondary Weapon. Just like primary and secondary weapons, melee weapons from PvE mode will only serve as a weapon skin. But, different melee weapon types can have different perks (i.e. Swords - chance for slash proc on hit, Fists - stagger on hit, Daggers - faster quick melee speed, Two Hand weapons - more damage when landing, and etc.) 

For the love of god, it's too late for Warframe to ever create a perfect PvP experience where players can fully immerse themselves in. if there is no way to balance out all the complex systems and varieties that exist in PvE mode, just simply give them up and at least let the players be able to enjoy a slightly dumbed down version of the gameplay that could be more easily managed and balanced. IMO, this is the only way to make the Conclave viable. Once again, I urge the players to stop expecting Warframe to develop into a perfect PvP game with all the elements in the co-op mode, but simply hope that conclave will evolve into a subtle, but a very enjoyable addition to many gameplay modes that exist in this game.

A. Actually there are ways DE could balance conclave. Balance doesn't = great PvP.

B. >conclave will never be as good or profound as it's PvE experience.

That is an opinion. Not a fact. It is possible to balance everything while keep the things we have, too.

C. Can you provide evidence that there is 0 possibility that this will ever happen ? I think it is pretty balanced right now, all things considered.

1. Abilities don't have as much of an effect on victory than gun skill and swordsmanship do. Giving frames only 1 ability would only neuter the frames and their options to react to any given scenario.

2. Are you saying the Tigris should function like a Strun ? That'd be silly.

3. Killing diversity doesn't bring balance. It brings meta and monotony.

4. See 3.

5. Limiting mobility doesn't bring balance either. That is just making it easier for people to hit things. It doesn't improve the player at all. Conclave is a fiery forge, not a relaxing sauna. It's supposed to challenge the player.

6. See #2 but replace Tigris and Strun with Karyst and ceramic dagger.

It is very possible to balance the weapons/frames/mods that we have available to us in conclave. Almost nobody here believes that conclave can evolve into something perfect. They usually just want it to improve. 

[Stormdragon]

Actually players don't need to get good first, all they need is to change their mindset, learn to deal with defeat and jump into conclave. Getting good comes  only some time after doing that small change, but people seems to expect to wreck everyone in their first match in the same way as they vanish hordes of grineer in PvE, which is a nonsense.

The PvE Player mindset needs a rework, conclave is mostly balanced and in a good spot even when it still needs some improvements.

Edited March 17, 2017 by D20
Removed hidden message

[-Jackson]

14 hours ago, squidd said:

I wholeheartedly disagree. I joined Warframe because I thought it would have awesome PvP, and when Conclave recaptured my interest later down the road, I was immediately hooked. I find the PvE missions brainlessly easy, but not too bad to waste time and listen to music in. To me, PvP is the real action, and PvE is like target practice for new recruits, but without the targets because numerous common combinations of frames/weapons nullify any skill. When I think of horde shooters, I imagine Left 4 Dead or Painkiller. Warframe looks like it could really be an exciting horde shooter to add to the list, but the common "easiest way to kill everything with no effort" mentality kills the PvE game mode for me. Warframe doesn't seem like a "PvE game at its core" to me, but rather a "completionist" game where everyone seems to grind for and collect all the items and then complain about new content for them to collect being "DElayed".

I fully immerse myself in PvP and only play PvE when I'm forced to in order to collect resources to build a new weapon for Conclave. Compare that to the players who are "forced" to play Conclave for one of many cosmetic items that they may or may not ever wear. We want players in our high-skill ceiling, steep learning curve PvP, not people who will complain because it is difficult to collect their freebies.

"I'm a PvP lover and I only PvP in Destiny, and haven't touched Conclave since I started Warframe at the end of last year. I entered the conclave as MR 2 and got out in 3 min."

This doesn't qualify as an understanding of Conclave's balance structure. Conclave is incredibly balanced in terms of weapon comparisons and the mobility structure. I understand many weapons and frames in PvE are direct upgrades, completely removing any validity to using Paris over Paris Prime, or Banshee over Banshee Prime, or Paris over Dread, Braton over Soma, and so on. PvP allows any and all of these weapons/frames to be just as viable as one another, being very balanced with the mobility that Warframe involves. The only real threats to the balance of Warframe are PvE mechanics and new additions that have yet to be properly field tested in a PvP environment, or cannot really be changed much without complete removal in favor of balance (cold procs....).

I do urge you to take some time to research and learn about Conclave in its current state, because in all honesty, one can know everything there is to know about Warframe's PvE and Destiny's PvP, but still know nothing about Conclave's weapon type and combat style balances. There are very few (probably 1 or 2) things in Warframe that are not viable in PvP, and you make it seem like the entire game mode is forsaken. That seems to be the real issue behind most of these "Conclave rework" threads.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Quote

Actually players don't need to get good first, all they need is to change their mindset, learn to deal with defeat and jump into conclave. Getting good comes  only some time after doing that small change, but people seems to expect to wreck everyone in their first match in the same way as they vanish hordes of grineer in PvE, which is a nonsense.

The PvE Player mindset needs a rework, conclave is mostly balanced and in a good spot even when it still needs some improvements.

I think the lack of any sort of introduction to such a competitive mode (especially in a comparably less challenging mode that is PvE) comes as somewhat of a shock for players who try out conclave (with latency/server issues on top of that too), and makes transitioning/learning difficult for most, since in a lot of ways it's a very different ballgame to PvE (insert lunaro pun).

Hell I gave up on conclave more than a few times before getting into it; It can be frustrating as an inexperienced player (primarily PvE at that) to say the least. I cannot agree more with the first part, and that mindset holds true for just about any other competitive games, but it is easier said than done, and is one of the harder things to learn, but also one of the most rewarding.

Edited March 17, 2017 by -Jackson

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

On 2/5/2017 at 0:52 AM, crusheralpha said:

Seriously, the way Conclave is right now, I'm not surprised why most of us don't like it.

Its unbalanced, it's too hard to even land a bullet, it's hard with people calling you cheaters.

Im not here to rant, and I'll try to suggest some ideas to help fix this problem.

I think we should keep things like our sprint speed to our normal PvE speed, and eliminate bullet jumps. It still makes it challenging to aim, but the possibilities for ultra-erratic movements are decreased, so you at least have the slightest idea where the players going.

And instead of rolling, I think we could have quick sidesteps or backsteps, with less "recovery" time before you can perform actions again. I'll get to that in a minute.

Conclave has an unbalanced weapon system, Bratons and it's other variants are a bit too strong. I think we could still use some subtle (no, major) tweaks and weapon damage and such.

Melee combat is also quite boring, it's just a matter of who spams E faster and hope the other dies before you. I would like it if melee blocking could deflect and stagger opponents, so you actually have to think of when to strike your enemy.

Thats also where that sidestepping I mentioned earlier comes in. Being able to perform a quick dodge and counter immediately. All this has to be reasonably paced, because warframe is a fast-paced shooter, think fast or get killed fast.

And I don't like the feature or Oro collecting. It's unfair for snipers, get a kill from far of and watch as the orange crystal get snatched away by someone who just swoops in.

Should we get these types of changes, or is Conclave ok the way it is now? Feel free to discuss.

Operator Boxing Ring anyone?

 

 

This has been said 100% over buddy. 

If you reduce the agility and speed of the frames it would be a massacre. People like me, Desiring Light, CFE Dragon, and Devonaiter to name but a few would slaughter entire lobbies with impunity. Legitimately the only reason people survive us is because of their speed and ability to flank us to fight back. Take that away and we would close games out in 6-7 minutes depending on who is in that match.