Aura System Discussion 9.1.4 Thread Merger

[Orthusaku]

Wow, people will really complain about anything,

Can't you just be happy that they fixed Auras?

 

Fixed, you mean created a path to power creep that will cause horrible unbalance mods in the future.

[VinceBlood]

Fixed, you mean created a path to power creep that will cause horrible unbalance mods in the future.

 

No, he said fixed.

 

All this power creep talk is crap.  The game is still being developed and the only people talking about power creep are the ones who've forma'd their frame 3+ times and are out of slots but not points.

 

This entire problem shouldn't even be a problem.

[NessOnett]

The positives outweigh the minuscule negatives of this change.  You know what I can't wait for?  I can't wait to slot an Aura into my newly-built Frost Prime the moment it finishes constructing and having the choice of slotting in my powers at level zero.  You enjoy your bickering and your so-called point making, I'll be having fun and playing the game.

 

You have your fun for all of five minutes until you get bored because you have no goals.

 

Don't even read what you're responding to and then have the gall to still respond with some very pompous arrogance. But what else would I expect from the greedy ADHD defenders who want instant gratification because they know they won't be the attention span to keep playing until tomorrow.

[Ventias]

You have your fun for all of five minutes until you get bored because you have no goals.

since when does the artifact system create a goal?

[Brasten]

No, he said fixed.

 

All this power creep talk is crap.  The game is still being developed and the only people talking about power creep are the ones who've forma'd their frame 3+ times and are out of slots but not points.

 

This entire problem shouldn't even be a problem.

 

I have put in 0 forma and have only Supercharged Warframes and weapons I enjoy using. However I do come from a classic Pen and Paper RPG background where this kind of Power Creep is pervasive and game wreaking if left unchecked.

 

Tell me, what will stop DE from making a 60 point Aura mod in the future under this system.

[SirAuron]

Having a hard cap in the current Mod system is good. If forces DE to actually balance new Mods appropriately instead of rolling player power ever forward. Uncapping that system means that Enemies will need to be rolled ever forward in a perpetual stat-buffing war with no end.

 

We can discuss in a different venue if the current Max (Orokin Reactor, fully formaed) Warframe pool is the correct amount. But creating a system that makes Mod energy and ever upward scalable thing is not good. You don't have to look very far in the RPGish genre to see where this ends, and its never pleasant.

Look at the big picture. With future mods on the way, where are you going to find enough points for them to fit. Some mods are a must for each frame so being limited means a lot of mods going to waste due to no one using them. Currently there is no space at all to explore new mods. You have to equip shield then them other mods that your framer must have. Where does that leave mods like quick rest or rush or master theif. Customization is so limiting. having more space feels or points feels like a breath of fresh air.

 

Now with more space, the harder levels are now more manageable. People won't have to sacrifice much to add in a ch needed mod or do without only to end up possibly ruining t for everyone. In the end there are players that don't know how to deal with limiting space and some of them are complaining about difficulty.

 

With many more mods on the horizon, do you honestly thing 60 points shall be enough. imagine having only 60 points years from now when the game is much harder. And think of other players who have to suffer through this. Who cannot afford to forma all the frames and weapons and sentinels and make clan weapons. All the aura added was 14 points. Let it go people.

[SirAuron]

Think of warframe years from now where there are tons of useful mods and only 60 points. How many people can cope with that? Not everyone can Forma everything.

[VinceBlood]

You have your fun for all of five minutes until you get bored because you have no goals.

 

Don't even read what you're responding to and then have the gall to still respond with some very pompous arrogance. But what else would I expect from the greedy ADHD defenders who want instant gratification because they know they won't be the attention span to keep playing until tomorrow.

 

I'm sorry, but who are you?  Do you know who I am, how I operate?  Do you know for a fact that I have ADHD and avarice issues?  No?  What's that?  You don't know any of that?  I thought so.  Take your accusations elsewhere.

 

I've been playing this game moderately since early June and I have yet to get bored.  I will have fun continuously because I enjoy this style of gameplay.  I don't need a goal to enjoy a shooter.  I just need things to shoot.  I'll get bored when no more enemies spawn in the game and I can't get to extraction.

 

You don't even read what you're responding to and then have the gall to respond with a poor attitude and insults.  But what else would I expect from someone who clearly finds the attempted degradation of people on an online forum more important than improving a promising game?

 

Turn it down a notch and act right.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Vince613

[Brasten]

Look at the big picture. With future mods on the way, where are you going to find enough points for them to fit

 

That's my problem! If DE was doing a credible job of game balance we wouldn't need to find those extra points! By opening up the Mod Energy system it encourages DE to be sloppy with their balance, which will only hurt this game in the long run.

[VinceBlood]

I have put in 0 forma and have only Supercharged Warframes and weapons I enjoy using. However I do come from a classic Pen and Paper RPG background where this kind of Power Creep is pervasive and game wreaking if left unchecked.

 

Tell me, what will stop DE from making a 60 point Aura mod in the future under this system.

 

Common sense.

[Aero-929]

While I can see the great appeal this would have to newer players, as they put time into alerts to get artifact mods in the first place. Than spend the time to build them up to gain the extra points...for those of us that put hours into working out how to do the same things over weeks and/months pending on game play time. When the Aura's cost points, you had to use Forma to effectively use them on frames. For a new player this would be challenging and frustrating. For old players we went into our trove from hours of grinding and figured out how to make it work.

Now it has changed and new players have gained a large advantage to opening play. This leaves older players feeling like their time was spent to achieve a goal that became a miniscule task for others.

Looking at the first Aura system where MODs cost points, new players were at a disadvantage. While this new system leaves older players with an unusable cap of points.

If the appeal is to bring new players in and appeal to the casual gamer, than good for the DE. That said...it would be nice for us older players, specifically grinders and min-maxing types...to also be compensated with High Value MODs that would utilize the additional points we now look at every time we open our inventories.

I don't like this change because I enjoyed having an advantage that took me months to get. However, this game isn't about one person...so it would be nice if there was an advantage for both parties...new players and old. The best way I can see this is by increasing the cap on MODs. New players still get advantages and aren't crushed by an overwhelming element to "catch up," and old players have new goals to achieve with their additional points.

 

Bottom line, both parties need to be considered, I get that...but instead of Aura 1 favoring old players and Aura 2 favoring new players...throw in the C option so both sides win and get to continue playing this great game. Thank you for your time.

[SirAuron]

That's my problem! If DE was doing a credible job of game balance we wouldn't need to find those extra points! By opening up the Mod Energy system it encourages DE to be sloppy with their balance, which will only hurt this game in the long run.

What does game balance have to do with finding space for all the new mods down the road? How many people use handspring or have enough points for it. More customization, the better.

 

think about customization. So many games thrive on that.

[MrHeartless]

If you hand everyone everything on a silver platter with no variety and no goals there will be no replay value and people will lose interest very fast.

 

And if you give everyone so much free mod capacity, they no longer need to buy any formas or potatoes to max everything, so players will stop purchasing them and your business model will fall apart.

 

And once again, if DE gives you everything with no effort, there's no goals to be imposed. You need to neither buy nor grind as you just get it. This feature adds nothing to the landscape, as you yourself have said repeatedly "All of these things could have been gotten already with enough time."

 

And if you give them the power without purchase than you are cutting off customers from both new and old. Because when even those with little time to commit are still able to achieve 'perfect' status with no effort, there is no incentive for them to spend money.

 

And the game wasn't too hard before this system, with artifacts being net 0. DE never had trouble attracting new players, and were growing just fine. In fact, even most new players were saying the game was too easy. Nor does this system make it any easier to get to M7(so some irrelevant information to try and get people on your side).

 

 

I can blame the game when it makes it needlessly easier if the entirety of the community has been raving for months for it to be harder. And yes, this change is going to affect the longterm sustenance of the game I love, but in a very very negative way if it's allow to continue. And that is the only reason I have a problem with it. If it was about wasting time and resources, I'd be complaining about things like Braton Prime when I have a very loved Braton. I'd be complaining about my sexy Snipetron being obsolete with the new Vandal. But I'm not complaining about those things, because they don't matter. I know that anything I put effort into may suddenly be obsolete and all for naught, and it doesn't matter. THIS does matter, because it's going to kill the game.

 

 

 

 

So yes, that is us thinking about it logically. And logically this system will reduce sales, spurn longevity, and will make players leave this game far faster than they otherwise would.

Ok, I can see where your focus is, you seem to think new players have auras, they have the means to max those auras, they also have potatoes. You seem to think that the acquisition of such will suddenly spurn the old players forcing them to abandon months of work because a maxed aura, for the time being, gives 14 mod Capacity. You also seem to think that everything is so linear that they'd process and be done with the game in a month because of 14 more mod capacity. So your very narrow interpretations aside. I will respond:

 

Well firstly, They must have an aura to max. To get an aura they have to do an alert. To do an alert they have to either unlock the map themselves or get someone to invite them to it. They then have to succeed in completing the mission. They will not be able to max that aura for at least a week at best and if they are fully casual then maybe 2 weeks. By then hopefully they would have reached rank 30 on their frame. If they liked the game and spent money on platinum they could afford to pick up a reactor. So that's about 1-2 weeks to get a frame to max rank and have decent capacity, a potato if lucky and an aura if lucky. Now, rank 30 means nothing, as without proper mods you will die. Also, without proper weapons as a basis, you will also die. So to farming.

 

Farming, to be able to survive if you are weaker defensively than your opponents, you need to have capable weapons. The main mods on weapons are the +damage and the double shot mods. It is known to take ages to max damage mods so that isnt even an argument, that's common sense. The double shot mods are rare, I personally only just completed the collection after playing actively for two months and I'm not casual, I play for 6 hrs a day mostly. So they would then need to embark on the process of upgrading weaponry, with the planets scaling the way they are, farming resources for new players is significantly harder. That too is common sense, so no need to delve further.

 

The new player will on average, spend more time than any of the players like myself spent in terms of reaching to the next point of the power curve. That is if they do not give up due to the perceived difficulty. Difficulty that the minority hardcore players begged for and STILL stomp through with not much challenge. Another change that was done to appease the minority and still has not addressed the problem in a wholistic way. Making everything bullet sponges is was never the way to go although, Nightmare mode is a good initiative and I am eager to see its progress.

 

Now, these players are still here, still buying new weapons to test/collect them, the new players will usually spend more money as the sheer grind would steer them away otherwise+ the allure of cosmetic upgrades.

 

14 mod point capacity, in no way hands anyone anything in the broad sense, technically you are getting mod capacity but what does that enable you? It only impacts on the time it would take for you to fit your mods AFTER you have gone through the long grinding process necessary to both FIND them and MAX them. Compared to that endeavor the few days 3 forma takes 3 days to build and if you could afford it would take nothing, + the day or 2 of doing void runs to get the bps themselves, is pretty insignificant.  It balances the lower end of the scale in that if they can acquire a mod and max it they get a sizeable bonus and added breathing room until they can get a potato.

 

Another thing, Potatoes. You claim they drop so frequently right? Well let me tell you, I have never played a game, where important items were randomised to the point where I have no control over when I get them. Usually, you are allowed to farm  and farm and farm at your leisure until you get the desired item but with Warframe, you have to get lucky twice, that is, lucky the alert pops and lucky to be in a position to complete it. The last catalyst for example was in a pretty difficulty defense mission that I know many failed so new-mid tier players would have had little chance of achieving this. So again, everything is not as linear as you think and guess what, before the update, a player with a sizeable wallet could buy all the forma he wanted, all the catalysts and reactors but as a new player you still have to put in the time obtain mods, mastery and rank up fodder.

 

I cannot see why any reasonable player would get "angry" because the lower echelons have gotten an ease. As to your points about handing everything to people, you are so disconnected from the new player dilemma you fail to understand that it is harder now than it was when you are I did it. I am still in that maxing process and I am no lightweight in terms of playtime. 14 mod capacity if Polarity is matched, does nothing to add power to the top end, and can only be enjoyed when maxed to give breathing room to those without forma, which if done, would only serve to relieve some of the grind ontop of the grind that already exists when you are trying to max mods to begin with.

[SirAuron]

The naysayers are just salty that they feel they wasted their Formas, well, new flash, more mods down the road, more customization and more points needed. So much narrow minded views. look at the big picture and calmeth down. try to see the good in this. All this negativity is not good. there is a reason people are defending this and if you can get past your "wasted" forma predicament, you shall see why. There is a positive is nearly everything.

 

things happen for a reason so breath and think for a second.

 

Stop being fixated on having just 60 points. Try and see that using so much Forma on one frame/weapon/sentinel is insane. No one should have to do that. Forma is a double edged sword and can make things worse.

 

How many Formas do you think the most powerful player used and think how much money and time he spent of all them Formas. Can you even switch polarities on slots you Forma. Does Forma even drop a lot. Is Forma needed for a lot of things. All this Forma is insanity.

Edited July 17, 2013 by SirAuron

[Brasten]

Common sense.

 

Doesn't always hold.

 

This shot is aimed more at DE_Rebecca. She's mentioned she knows Pathfinder (the Pen and Paper roleplaying game). I don't expect to many folks here to understand the whole 7 year back story there, but I hope she does or at least knows people who can highlight now 3rd Edition D&D power creeped over 7 years until Wizards of the Coast dropped it and tried to make 4th Edition. Pathfinder RPG and many of the changes made to the core character class/spells/etc were driven partly due to that power creep. New spells/class/feats/customization was added over time that slowly move the games 'power' balance higher and higher. This was partly done to help sell new books.

 

It does not have to be all at once but eventually that will happen. We will see the Aura system used as vehicle to bump up the Mod Cap, which will let DE make more costly/powerful mods, which will get people looking for more energy giving Aura form "events", and so on... a.k.a power creep.

 

Adding this additional channel for power creep (which is going to happen with weapons) this early in what is still development is unwise.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Brasten

[SirAuron]

Doesn't always hold.

 

This shot is aimed more at DE_Rebecca. She's mentioned she knows Pathfinder (the Pen and Paper roleplaying game). I don't expect to many folks here to understand the whole 7 year back story there, but I hope she does or at least knows people who can highlight now 3rd Edition D&D power creeped over 7 years until Wizards of the Coast dropped it and tried to make 4th Edition. Pathfinder RPG and many of the changes made to the core character class/spells/etc were driven partly due to that power creep. New spells/class/feats/customization was added over time that slowly move the games 'power' balance higher and higher. This was partly done to help sell new books.

 

It does not have to be all at once but eventually that will happen. We will see the Aura system used as vehicle to bump up the Mod Cap, which will let DE make more costly/powerful mods, which will get people looking for more energy giving Aura form "events", and so on... a.k.a power creep.

 

Adding this additional channel for power creep (which is going to happen with weapons) this early in what is still development is unwise.

Ya know, RPGs raise level caps for a reason and add more SP to use on skills to empower them for a reason. let it go.60 points just isn't enough anymore.

Edited July 17, 2013 by SirAuron

[Jeraggerjack]

Its my opinion that Aura mods should cost 0 mod points and have no polarity. You use fusion cores and so on to rank them up, but their cost is exactly the same from unranked to maxed.

They cost 0 warframe mod points before and they added 0 warframe mod points. This should have stayed exactly the same. You get the aura mod, you slap it on, rank it up as you're able, and that's it. I'm guessing the polarities were added so people would branch out from Energy Siphon. 

*buzzer* WRONG.

Need to take a look at that. Maybe ditching the energy balls completely in favor of a +2 or +3 per second flat energy regeneration rate. For that matter. possibly dropping the health orbs in favor of a +1 to +3 flat hp regeneration rate per second, which can be increased to +6 maximum by a max rank mod card and possibly a trinity power that grants a regeneration bonus for about 8 seconds for the party. Whichever rate DE feels is balanced. This health regen would obviously be disabled on vampire nightmare mode. As an added bonus, the health regeneration would actually give armor value ! Steel Fiber would be a serious mod to consider throwing for mid to high armor warframes.

In this way it would snap people out of the current funk and get them to use other artifact mods, without affecting the challenge and fun of the game.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Jeraggerjack

[shirokuro]

*sigh*

Truthfully this is what it comes down to.

"People will get mad over change, and people will get mad if there is no change"

Honestly, if there can't be 100% agree towards certain aspects, its ultimately their decision to implement anything or not

 

1st off is why does it truly bother you? because it makes things easier?

Why dont you limit yourself then? because you want other people to be under your restrictions?

 

Now im not judging anyone, but i want the game to be enjoyable to "my" liking.

And if i dont like something, i'll just have to either compromise, or just stop playing.

It doesn't mean that i wont speak out my mind, but im not QQ over problems (anymore) nor i will stop playing over 1 little thing that can easily be fixed by yourself rather than DE limiting you

[DAwGi]

I hate this change. I prefer before the update.

 

Now you can build (mods) a new warframe very fast ...

 

I don't like this change either.  The game was already super easy, and now you don't even have to forma your warframes to make them uber powerful.  They've taken away a big reason for me to continue playing.  The system before was great in that you could make things super powerful, but it took time.  Now they're just handing me a cookie for free, when the entire point of playing a game was to progress my character.

[Orthusaku]

No, he said fixed.

 

All this power creep talk is crap.  The game is still being developed and the only people talking about power creep are the ones who've forma'd their frame 3+ times and are out of slots but not points.

 

This entire problem shouldn't even be a problem.

 

I've put zero forma into my equipment and only have a potatoe on my loki and kunia. I think that if auras are to give energy, they should only do so for non-potatoed frames, thus keeping the maximum amount of energy capped, while making it easier for new and casual players.

[VinceBlood]

I don't like this change either.  The game was already super easy, and now you don't even have to forma your warframes to make them uber powerful.  They've taken away a big reason for me to continue playing.  The system before was great in that you could make things super powerful, but it took time.  Now they're just handing me a cookie for free, when the entire point of playing a game was to progress my character.

 

What are you doing that makes the game so easy?

[Brasten]

What does game balance have to do with finding space for all the new mods down the road? How many people use handspring or have enough points for it. More customization, the better.

 

think about customization. So many games thrive on that.

 

New Mods that if DE isn't required to balance within the existing system will force them to "balance" them else where. Mostly with needless enemy stat boosts. As I've said we can have a different discussion about if the current 30/60/120(forma) and 8 slots is enough customization in a different Feedback talk.

 

This is very much about balance, and long term balance at that. The fact that you're thinking about all the "new mods" the problems people will have should tell you power creep is already underway. DE is making "trap" mods like Handspring that people don't pick because it is borderline worthless next to 'better' choices. No one uses the Elemental Resistance mods either. In 3.5 D&D this was called the Toughness Feat.

 

Ya know, RPGs raise level caps for a reason and add more SP to use on skills to empower them for a reason. let it go.60 points just isn't enough anymore.

 

However that is controlled increases. With predicable results. Done for very specific reasons. Letting DE's devs have the tool for uncontrolled Mod energy growth means they won't be forced to directly sit down and think about the ramifications of each micro-power bump until its gotten out of hand. The very essence of power creep.

 

Again, if we want to talk about the current cap (60 points and 8 slots) in terms of long term meta that's a great discussion on its own. It should not be done around the frame work of ad-hoc and likely to be uncontrolled system.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Brasten

[DAwGi]

Before the Aura buff, the only thing that could keep someone like me interested was spending time and effort to acquire forma and level my warframes and weapons into uber killing machines.  Now you have taken away any reason for me to want to forma my warframe.  I have no reason to even continue playing.  There is no endgame content, and what you have released is more of the same crap that was around before.  Nightmare mode was a total joke, and is an even bigger joke after that buff.

 

I realize a lot of people out there don't want to work for things, and would rather just be handed everything off the bat and have uber powerful warframes from the start, but that's just flat out boring.

[Brasten]

I've put zero forma into my equipment and only have a potatoe on my loki and kunia. I think that if auras are to give energy, they should only do so for non-potatoed frames, thus keeping the maximum amount of energy capped, while making it easier for new and casual players.

 

I could get behind that idea. Hard capping at 60 (or whatever number SirAuron thinks is now needed) would address my main issue of uncontrolled Mod Energy growth through creep.

 

Although it would partly defeat DE trying to get people to buy Reactors... it would force them to limit their creep on non-potatoed frames or risk making Reactors pointless.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Brasten

[Ryald]

I put 5 formas into my frame and now I have 15 extra capacity.

I'm not sure how I feel about it honestly. I think it is a little too strong of a boost. Maybe the mechanics could stay the same, just cut the boost in half?