I Think The Game Needs A Token System Now More Than Ever.

[zephyrdragoon]

I'm already feeling kinda discouraged. I remember the hardship over aquiring Latron Prime and how many runs it took. Now we have even more weapons from void only? Well, might as well not bother. The drop pool is even more diluted and getting all of the parts is gonna take good amount runs. I have some plat, but I'm not gonna spend it on glorified slot machine, no way in hell.

 

Those prime weapons look nice, but not nice enough. This system is discouraging, there's just too much grind. Grind defense, then grind void... and for what? So you can maybe have some mroe weapons to grind with? F*** that. 

 

Token system is probably a good idea.. and void shouldn't be for the priviledged only. If those missions are meant as a rare treat, then they should have some consistent reward, not just maybe stacked up on another maybe.

 

Even if you can buy void keys with plat the only way for people who want to play this game completely for free is to run high level defense missions for a very low shot at getting a key. Then run the void mission for a very low shot at getting the part they want, then do that 3-4 more times. Getting the right drop gets more and more difficult with all the new weapons, and thus parts that are being added. Its a disheartening effect, the more cool stuff they add, the harder it becomes to get that new stuff.

[stacey69]

U9 was a great improvement. The bosses are challenging but beatable if you prepare, new weapons, mods, and other improvements are numerous. New tiles rock, the void has gotten that much more beautiful with the new rooms and puzzles.

 

The Problem

 

The problem is that it is tremendously difficult to get a specific weapon or frame part now. Raptor has buggy drop mechanics. Things either don't drop at all or drop in inaccessible areas. I know this first hand because it got stuck on a cliff and I teleported up as Ash and killed it. A BP dropped and the two people who were playing rhino with me couldn't get up there to get at it. Vor has a similar problem in that after 30+ runs, some solo and some in a group, he has yet to drop a single Seer BP or part. The only thing I have seen are cronus BP's, which get your hopes up only to crush them again. 

 

I don't even mind the new bosses brief periods of invisibility. I kind of enjoy them to be honest. Bosses aren't really meant to be a slightly larger than average bullet sponge. They should make you adapt to them, not be something that is a quick kill.

 

The void has been greatly improved. New gamemodes and tilesets are amazing to play. The new weapons look fantastic.  The only problem is that with so many weapons on the same drop tables along with forma and void pieces we might already have it has become increasingly difficult to get that last piece or component to the weapon you have been grinding for. 

 

The Solution

 

Every time you complete a bosses level you get a reward named <Bosses name> Token. (Cpt. Vor Token, Hyena Token, Kril Token, etc.) These can then be exchanged at varying rates for the things that boss drops. Every time you beat that boss you get one token guaranteed. Not 2 or 3 or 4, just one. That way you still must fight bosses multiple times to get what you want, but not so many fights with no rewards. Bosses will still drop their resources. Hyena will still drop nano spores, vor will still drop morphics.

 

Examples

 

Cpt. Vor tokens can be traded for Cronus BPs, Seer BP's, and Seer Parts. 

 

Cronus BPs cost one Vor Token.

 

Seer Parts cost two Tokens

 

Seer BP costs 3.

 

Another example would be for warframe parts. Lets take Raptor in this case.

 

Raptor Tokens can be traded for Nova BP's. 

 

Nova Helmet costs 2 Tokens

 

Nova Chasis costs 2 Tokens

 

Nova Systems costs 2 Tokens. 

 

6 fights with raptor is if anything less than the average number of tries it takes you to get all the parts for nova. 6 fights with almost any boss is less than the number it takes to get all the parts for a frame. Having Seer require 7 fights gives it a kind of exclusivity. Dedicated people will be able to acquire it without too much trouble if they can gear properly, newbies might not have the resources to kill him 7 times. 

 

Void Tokens

 

Each Void mission gives tokens equal to its level. (Tier 1 gives 1 token, tier 2 gives 2 tokens, etc.) Regardless of its mission type. Void tokens can be exchanged for the rewards that are currently random rewards in the void. (Forma, frost prime parts/bp, paris prime parts/bp, etc.)

 

Forma costs 2 tokens (

 

Weapon BP's cost 3 tokens

 

Rare weapon parts cost 2 tokens

 

Common weapon parts cost 1 token

 

Frost prime parts cost 3 tokens

 

Frost prime BP costs 4 tokens

 

With these ratios acquiring prime weapons or Frost prime will be no easy task, but it will not be the random RNG we know and love  today. Getting a Frost prime will take several trips to the void. Just over 4 tier 3 void missions will let you get all the pieces you need to get frost prime, but if you don't want, or can't, run tier 3 then you will have to settle for increasing numbers of easier missions. Similar concepts for void weapons. The very good latron prime will take a bit of legwork to get, the quantities of forma needed to make an endgame frame or fantastic dojo will not be as hard.

 

The Transition

 

All of the blue prints you already have will remain with you. You can still sell them. You can craft them just like before. Frame BPs can still be bought in the shop as usual, same with weapons that have BP's in the shop. All of the components and resources you have acquired will remain the same. You will still have 5 Latron Prime barrels, you can still sell them. Building things still takes the same amount of time, you can rush builds if you want. The only thing that will change are that bosses will not drop BP's, and Boss mission and Void missions will give you tokens instead, and that the market will have a tab for exchanging your tokens for loot. 

 

tl;dr: Bosses and Void missions drop tokens, which can be exchanged for loot in the market. 

 

EDITS

 

- Forma is now listed as costing 2 tokens

I think I would prefer your tokens idea with a lot higher cost though. I'm not into hardcore farming anymore so tokens would benefit me. Maybe both? A small RNG chance for xxx to drop it but at least an idea of how much token farming you need like "item z will take me 50 tokens so that's 3 days farming"

 

Not bad but someone will floor the idea and show its weakness I'm sure hehe.

[zephyrdragoon]

I think I would prefer your tokens idea with a lot higher cost though. I'm not into hardcore farming anymore so tokens would benefit me. Maybe both? A small RNG chance for xxx to drop it but at least an idea of how much token farming you need like "item z will take me 50 tokens so that's 3 days farming"

 

Not bad but someone will floor the idea and show its weakness I'm sure hehe.

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence?

 

50 runs than it takes for almost anything. Even collectively that is a huge number. Think about doing 50 T3 exterminate runs, or raptor runs just to get one item. Doing 50 runs is the kind of thing I'm trying to avoid. 10 runs, 15, maybe 20 for something really awesome. Yea, sure. 50 though seems like that hardcore farming you dislike. 

 

I don't want to sound rude but you don't have to quote the OP, at least not, all of it. You can just edit it so the quote bubble says something like "OP" or even not at all.

[Tragixx]

I was the unlucky guy who played WoW and wasn't able to get raid progression because of terrible drop luck. That being said, I do agree with posts that bosses would have to be much harder in order for this to work.

 

 

Personally, the best (read: most fair) way I see this working is making tokens on a item-by-item basis. For example, instead of getting a 'Void token', or a 'Void T3 Token', you would get a 'Latron Prime Token', 'Nova Token', etc.  

 

I would even go as far as saying that blueprints should be left in the game, and you exchange the right blueprints/parts for that token, and implement a diminishing returns where buying a warframe/weapon part would cost 3/5/7/10 tokens. For example, your third latron item purchased using tokens would cost 7 tokens, but your first Seer item would still only cost 3.

 

That way, if you REALLY want to farm everything out, you can. Or, if you get lucky drops, you'll clear content faster than others. BUT, for those of us, including myself, who find themselves missing one part and having several of another, there is still and alternative option.

 

+1 and following. I'm completely behind some kind of system.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Tragixx

[litlit]

DE, please do this. One of the most common sentiments I've read in Warframe discussions (such as in-game or on the wiki) is something along the lines of "if I knew for certain that I would get __________ for doing 200 tower 2s, I would do it". The loot system as it currently exists is really, really, really, really bad. Change it, please.

 

edit: Figure out how many runs you think it should take players on average to get an item. Then, make it so that players always get the item when they reach that number of runs. No more, no less. It's that simple.

Edited July 14, 2013 by litlir

[Barnago]

I think this is a serious problem that the game is going to need to address sooner or later.

 

You cannot just keep injecting more items into the same drop tables (alerts, defense rewards and mission complete rewards, void rewards, now nightmare rewards) and expect things to remain tenable as the individual chance of finding a specific item you were hunting for goes down and down.

 

I don't know that a token system is necessarily the solution (it could be), but at some point, in some capacity, the game needs to remember to always allow players to reasonably focus and hunt for the specific item they want rather than just pulling the slot machine lever more and more on an ever-expanding pool of goods they may or may not want.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Barnago

[Playford]

The token system is awesome and I would love to see it implemented. My only problem is with the number of tokens requiered, in my opinion they could be a liitle higher.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Playford

[Maslofski]

geat idea! i have so far not a single void weapon/frame of update 8, i need 1 weapon part on each and i have 3 helmets for FP.

[Danakar]

+1 for this suggestion! Having an alternate means of obtaining specific components would really work wonders compared to the current (archaic) RNG approach. That way, even those with the most rotten luck can eventually get the item they want.

 

I'm currently sitting on several Latron Prime and Reaper Prime blueprints, but can't build either as I just can't seem to get the final component I need to actually craft them...

[krisp]

I'm against this idea for some pretty complicated reasons. I think Extra Credits can explain them better.

 

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-jc-pennys-effect

 

Essentially, grinding for tokens is even more boring than grinding for parts. If this were to be implemented, I'd rather you could buy mats, especially rare mats with them. But that's it.

[xenapan]

Tokens? Yes. 2-5 tokens for any piece on the other hand is way too few. Add a 0 behind it and keep the random drops. That way you can still get lucky, but if you are unlucky you still got tokens for whatever.

[Moonunitz]

Play WoW, they used this idea there, don't ruin our fun.

Explanation: Getting the wrong drops is part of the fun. What do you do when you have everything? You don't have much to do after that, treasure every moment you spend getting a drop you don't need. It makes the victory sweeter, getting tokens to exchange leaves a sour taste in my mouth and a hole in my heart.

Please don't support this idea, it's good, but it's wrong for this game.

[zephyrdragoon]

I'm against this idea for some pretty complicated reasons. I think Extra Credits can explain them better.

 

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-jc-pennys-effect

 

Essentially, grinding for tokens is even more boring than grinding for parts. If this were to be implemented, I'd rather you could buy mats, especially rare mats with them. But that's it.

 

That did a good job of explaining your concerns. 

 

The token system is awesome and I would love to see it implemented. My only problem is with the number of tokens requiered, in my opinion they could be a liitle higher.

 

 

I was the unlucky guy who played WoW and wasn't able to get raid progression because of terrible drop luck. That being said, I do agree with posts that bosses would have to be much harder in order for this to work.

 

 

Personally, the best (read: most fair) way I see this working is making tokens on a item-by-item basis. For example, instead of getting a 'Void token', or a 'Void T3 Token', you would get a 'Latron Prime Token', 'Nova Token', etc.  

 

I would even go as far as saying that blueprints should be left in the game, and you exchange the right blueprints/parts for that token, and implement a diminishing returns where buying a warframe/weapon part would cost 3/5/7/10 tokens. For example, your third latron item purchased using tokens would cost 7 tokens, but your first Seer item would still only cost 3.

 

That way, if you REALLY want to farm everything out, you can. Or, if you get lucky drops, you'll clear content faster than others. BUT, for those of us, including myself, who find themselves missing one part and having several of another, there is still and alternative option.

 

+1 and following. I'm completely behind some kind of system.

 

 

Lots of people have their concerns in the number of tokens required to get component X or that having tokens will be unfun or too easy to get. The token costs could be implemented higher (or lower, for w/e reason) than they are currently listed as. They are just suggestions, examples of what could be. 

 

The other problem people are talking about is that grinding for tokens would be even more boring than grinding for parts now. What could happen is an increase in the conversion rates (maybe double or triple their current ratios) but have bosses and void missions still give you loot. That way random drops are still lively and exciting, but you are also at some point guaranteed to be able to make what you want.

 

I'm going to edit these things into the OP, thanks much for your feedback.

Edited July 14, 2013 by zephyrdragoon

[Clasbyte]

I think the problem with the token system is that it eliminates content insanely quickly.  Meaning, it will just become "oh I need these parts, I'll be able to build anything within an hour".  This would pretty much eliminate most reasons to go to a boss.

 

Actually an token system is the best way to control how long gamers will need to "finish" content.

 

I like the concept. You could even go all the way out and kill drops all together and add an point system that allows to buy what you want, OH NO NOBODY WILL BE GOING BOSSES THEN, "loudbuzzer" Nope, because a boss will give the most points you can get per mission....

 

You always have to see the complete system not just parts of it.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Clasbyte

[Patrynio]

I'm cool with that, but increase the requirement for anything with tokens. 2 Runs for one part of Nova? No. 5-10 runs for one bp? Grindable and fine IMO.

Aside from that, they may fix the problem technically:
- fix Raptor not dropping anything (it's a bug)
- fix Vor drop rates (they probably suffer from the Cronus problem [ drop % was reduced drastically after people exploited Cronus BP for farming credits, probably Seer parts suffer from this])

[JadesDitoyr]

If I could just trade 15 Chassis for 1 system, I'd be happy.

[Kingashe]

Hmm. I think the token costs should be a little bit more. Unless the bosses are able to drop a token and BP

[zephyrdragoon]

Hmm. I think the token costs should be a little bit more. Unless the bosses are able to drop a token and BP

 

Read the OP, I edited it in there.

 

I'm cool with that, but increase the requirement for anything with tokens. 2 Runs for one part of Nova? No. 5-10 runs for one bp? Grindable and fine IMO.

Aside from that, they may fix the problem technically:

- fix Raptor not dropping anything (it's a bug)

- fix Vor drop rates (they probably suffer from the Cronus problem [ drop % was reduced drastically after people exploited Cronus BP for farming credits, probably Seer parts suffer from this])

 

 

I think someone datamined the game a bit and found that the Seer DID suffer from cronus' % reduction.

[SoulEchelon]

I agree with this, though I think certain rewards should cost more than the amount of tokens you posted.

 

Maybe Nova parts could be 10 tokens each, or even 20. Remember this is a full WARFRAME. It should be hard to get this - either due to how rare the BPs drop or due to the amount of grinding you need to do.

 

It should also cost alot so people won't get back into the habit of farming Vor for Cronus blueprints just to sell them. I'd say Cronus = 5 tokens, Seer = 10 or 15.

 

Read the OP, I edited it in there.

 

 

 

I think someone datamined the game a bit and found that the Seer DID suffer from cronus' % reduction.

 

That would explain why almost no one has it yet.

Edited July 14, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[Winterbraid]

I also agree that boss farming right now is ridiculous, BUT I also find the randomness of rewards part of the appeal. Tokens would sort of kill the "dungeon crawler" feel of the game.

 

So why not simply take some load off the bosses instead? Remove the main Warframe blueprint from the Market and give the boss X chance to drop it and only it (where X is the combined chance of dropping any of the 3 prints previously), and make the Components drop from somewhere else, like rare drops in normal missions on the same planet. So you only need to farm Lech Kril for one print, not three.

 

You can check out my thread for the details of my idea :D

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/78784-suggestion-tweak-the-warframe-blueprint-acquisition-process/#entry859297

Edited July 14, 2013 by Winterbraid

[zephyrdragoon]

I also agree that boss farming right now is ridiculous, BUT I also find the randomness of rewards part of the appeal. Tokens would sort of kill the "dungeon crawler" feel of the game.

 

So why not simply take some load off the bosses instead? Remove the main Warframe blueprint from the Market and give the boss X chance to drop it and only it (where X is the combined chance of dropping any of the 3 prints previously), and make the Components drop from somewhere else, like rare drops in normal missions on the same planet. So you only need to farm Lech Kril for one print, not three.

The chance of a boss dropping any WF BP is fairly high. If they only dropped the final BP then people might try and farm them for easy credits. Also, browsing the market is the main way new players are introduced to other warframes. So taking them out of there might cause some issues. Having component parts drop from the missions on a planet would, IMO, cause an uneeded grind for something you are not guaranteed to get. Bosses are grinded (ground) on because they are the enemy to kill if you want a frame/weapon. Random grineer mooks are just that, random. There is no guarantee that you get what you are looking for.

 

I agree with this, though I think certain rewards should cost more than the amount of tokens you posted.

 

Maybe Nova parts could be 10 tokens each, or even 20. Remember this is a full WARFRAME. It should be hard to get this - either due to how rare the BPs drop or due to the amount of grinding you need to do.

 

It should also cost alot so people won't get back into the habit of farming Vor for Cronus blueprints just to sell them. I'd say Cronus = 5 tokens, Seer = 10 or 15.

 

 

That would explain why almost no one has it yet.

 

I agree, farming prints just to sell them should not be a viable method for getting credits. Alternatively, the devs could just make the cronus BP sell for less (or for nothing) and leave other BP's unchanged. 

 

Again, ratios are just suggestions they are not set in stone.

Edited July 14, 2013 by zephyrdragoon

[Winterbraid]

The chance of a boss dropping any WF BP is fairly high. If they only dropped the final BP then people might try and farm them for easy credits.

 

 

Credits in this game are already too easy for many other reasons, just need more sinks, and lower the BP value enough that it's not profitable to farm them. Also the tendency for the updated bosses seems to be making them smarter, trickier, more resilient to incoming DPS, in other words... making them less farmable. Having the boss just drop one thing gives the devs far more control over the time/reward ratio than making him drop three things.

 

Also, browsing the market is the main way new players are introduced to other warframes. So taking them out of there might cause some issues.

 

I think the main way new players are introduced to other warframes is through simply playing the game with others, that's the only thing that lets you actually see them and their abilities in action. As well as wikis, profile videos, etc... And Platinum sales will still be there if you just want to check out the looks and descriptions.

 

There is no benefit from having the blueprints in the market other than the fact you can buy them and see that you need the Helmet, Chassis and Systems which you won't be able to obtain for a long while as a new player anyway.

 

Having component parts drop from the missions on a planet would, IMO, cause an uneeded grind for something you are not guaranteed to get. Bosses are grinded (ground) on because they are the enemy to kill if you want a frame/weapon. Random grineer mooks are just that, random. There is no guarantee that you get what you are looking for.

 

I still recommend you have a closer look at my suggestion and the rest of the thread, I don't want components to just drop from anywhere and anything. I think it would be ideal if they dropped from special places in normal missions that would be the explorer's equivalent of a "boss fight."

 

The thing is, I don't think guaranteed items really have a place in this game. We already have a decent selection of weapons for credits, plus the Platinum option. The drop rates can be adjusted to present a reasonable ratio without making things too easy, and the handful of "most farmed" missions can have some traffic taken off them and redirected to the undervisited missions; small steps are better and more plausible than overthrowing the entire system IMO.

[zephyrdragoon]

Credits in this game are already too easy for many other reasons, just need more sinks, and lower the BP value enough that it's not profitable to farm them. Also the tendency for the updated bosses seems to be making them smarter, trickier, more resilient to incoming DPS, in other words... making them less farmable. Having the boss just drop one thing gives the devs far more control over the time/reward ratio than making him drop three things.

 

 

 

 

I think the main way new players are introduced to other warframes is through simply playing the game with others, that's the only thing that lets you actually see them and their abilities in action. As well as wikis, profile videos, etc... And Platinum sales will still be there if you just want to check out the looks and descriptions.

 

There is no benefit from having the blueprints in the market other than the fact you can buy them and see that you need the Helmet, Chassis and Systems which you won't be able to obtain for a long while as a new player anyway.

 

 

 

 

I still recommend you have a closer look at my suggestion and the rest of the thread, I don't want components to just drop from anywhere and anything. I think it would be ideal if they dropped from special places in normal missions that would be the explorer's equivalent of a "boss fight."

 

The thing is, I don't think guaranteed items really have a place in this game. We already have a decent selection of weapons for credits, plus the Platinum option. The drop rates can be adjusted to present a reasonable ratio without making things too easy, and the handful of "most farmed" missions can have some traffic taken off them and redirected to the undervisited missions; small steps are better and more plausible than overthrowing the entire system IMO.

 

If bosses only drop one item at a vastly increased rate and any mission on the planet only drops components from lockers then people are almost required to have Master Thief and crawl through every room opening every locker for a terribly low chance at finding one of the 3 parts they need.

 

Newbies taking their first steps in the game on mercury are probably being paired with other newbies. So they see 3 frames. One of which they are already in. Once they branch out and make it to other planets after a few hours then yea, they will see other frames. Prior to that though they will be wondering what they can get in the market for the measly amount of credits and plat they have. They will browse through it and see some frame that looks awesome and then wonder how they can get that. The chance they have of seeing other frames increases the longer they play in the game. The market is there from the very beginning. 

 

I did look at your suggestion. In mine, I propose that components don't drop at all. You don't have to grind for a chance at getting them. You grind for a guarantee. People even suggested that the components still drop and that the ratios for token exchange should be higher to compensate for there still being random drops. 

 

 

I think it would be ideal if they dropped from special places in normal missions that would be the explorer's equivalent of a "boss fight."

 

Are random lockers the equivalent to a "boss fight"?

 

The drop tables are so diluted right now with all the new stuff being added in that chance of finding everything you need to make one weapon in a reasonable amount of time is astronomical. Weapons that can be bought with credits don't have BPs, they are there to supplement you until you get something better. What 'endgame' player uses a weapon that can be bought with credits? Weapons that are made are usually superior. 

[gpturismo]

Tokens feel very WoW-esque, and is a reason I only pvp in WoW. It would quickly diminish content if everyone received a token from the run. After x runs they would easily have what they want and it would quickly turn runs into a simple chore. Then if only one random person received a token we run into a similar issue as above but could create a more toxic environment (see WoW Raiding again.)

 

This system is a grind, but I personally think that, if not implemented, a ratio table should be adjusted for the team by what bp's are already owned. An example of this is if you have no blue-prints, you have x% chance for any of the items to drop. If you buy the store bp, you could have 10x% for one of the other three to drop. Once you have the chassis, you have 15x% chance for the systems and head to drop.

Another idea is for Clans in an alliance to do a shared credit dump to research frames, and allow them to purchase bp's at a high credit and/or a decent platinum cost.

As for the credit talk, I do wish there was a credit to platinum exchange, even if it was a simple 50,000 credits per 1 platinum (ie 1m creds for 20 plat.) At least then people with less disposable income could purchase some of the things available only through platinum, such as color palettes.

[zephyrdragoon]

Tokens feel very WoW-esque, and is a reason I only pvp in WoW. It would quickly diminish content if everyone received a token from the run. After x runs they would easily have what they want and it would quickly turn runs into a simple chore. Then if only one random person received a token we run into a similar issue as above but could create a more toxic environment (see WoW Raiding again.)

 

This system is a grind, but I personally think that, if not implemented, a ratio table should be adjusted for the team by what bp's are already owned. An example of this is if you have no blue-prints, you have x% chance for any of the items to drop. If you buy the store bp, you could have 10x% for one of the other three to drop. Once you have the chassis, you have 15x% chance for the systems and head to drop.

Another idea is for Clans in an alliance to do a shared credit dump to research frames, and allow them to purchase bp's at a high credit and/or a decent platinum cost.

As for the credit talk, I do wish there was a credit to platinum exchange, even if it was a simple 50,000 credits per 1 platinum (ie 1m creds for 20 plat.) At least then people with less disposable income could purchase some of the things available only through platinum, such as color palettes.

 

Consider that even if you have all the BP's, which are not all exchangeable at the same rate and will take some time to fully acquire, you still don't have all the resources you need to build them. 

 

That causes all sorts of problems if people in the same party don't have the same BP's. 

 

Then the only reason to leave the dojo is to farm resources.

 

The devs have to make money, the f2p model can't support an idea like this. Not at any ratio.