Self Damage

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

ok fair point, but still is it that hard to be situationally aware and not just spam fire?

In a closed corridor where enemies spawn on top of you? It's kinda hard, yeah.

2 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

i know they are. in third teir missions, esspecially in def and survival and interception missions they can reach upwards of level 120 easily, still never had trouble dealing damage with self damaging weapons.

Endless missions rarely happen on T3 sorties (or ever, really). The amount of damage you deal depends highly on your setup - your warframe and your teammates. In Sorties usually others kill everything for you. And enemies aren't really that tough unless it's an Eximus modifier. I'm not gonna argue your personal expierience, but by my expierience damage weapons like penta and kulstar deal is always insufficient. And never good enough for the one-shot drawback.

6 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

you just have to step back and think

While a bombard kills you with a homing ogris from across the map with zero self-damage. No. To git gud you gotta be in a perfect vacuum and with the game being perfectly fair. There's a ton of unfair things in this game that make your skill irrelevant. That's why people minmax in the first place - and that's why people don't use self-damaging weapons. Couse they're unfair.

[--DSP--]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

Redcrit is critbuild.

Ergo cogitus sum or something like that.

You pretty much proved that you don't know what you're saying

[(PSN)CelasVictor]

1 minute ago, --DSP-- said:

You pretty much proved that you don't know what you're saying

Thanks for helping me stay ignorant and proving your point by saying its some other thing that you won't specify.
reee

[-S-O-Vetula_Mortem]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

15% crit base.
What's feasible easily is Critical Delay and Point Strike.
+150%, +48%.
44.7% crit.
Will not redcrit without Argon Scope.
Redcrit is critbuild.

Ergo cogitus sum or something like that.

A Critbuild is when the main Focus is on Crit mods aka like putting maiming strike on a Meele and calling it a day.

Red Crit is a thing to Achieve but isnt a requirement for Critbuilds.

[(PSN)CelasVictor]

Just now, -S-O-Vetula_Mortem said:

A Critbuild is when the main Focus is on Crit mods aka like putting maiming strike on a Meele and calling it a day.

Red Crit is a thing to Achieve but isnt a requirement for Critbuilds.

Ah, so Bladed Rounds/ Hammer Shot.
Still too expensive for me, PS4 has had one event for Acolytes this year and ZERO Hammer Shot alerts.
Meaning you buy it and that's a lot of P.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

15% crit base.
What's feasible easily is Critical Delay and Point Strike.
+150%, +48%.
44.7% crit.
Will not redcrit without Argon Scope.
Redcrit is critbuild.

Ergo cogitus sum or something like that.

Zarr ain't gonna redcrit with argon scope either. Also, people play games not to git gud, but to have fun. When something is unfair, no matter how gud you are with it, it's no fun.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

19 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

INFACT the zarr has a shotgun mode specifically for when enemies are too close to you... use it!

Penta and Kulstar don't have that.

[(PSN)CelasVictor]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Also, people play games not to git gud, but to have fun. When something is unfair, no matter how gud you are with it, it's no fun.

So, what, you just wanted to complain about explosive weapons because they were there?
You don't actually want to learn to use them, you just want them to be just like YOU want?
To be perfectly modified to your playstyle so you can be perfect with those weapons without actually adjusting yourself?

That's entitled.

Fun is learning new stuff and making it work for you but guess I'm too old to be force fed preprocessed fun to enjoy it these days.

Anyway, Carry on.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

So, what, you just wanted to complain about explosive weapons because they were there?
You don't actually want to learn to use them, you just want them to be just like YOU want?
To be perfectly modified to your playstyle so you can be perfect with those weapons without actually adjusting yourself?

Why would you even get angry like that? No. If there is a bug or an unfair mechanic I want it fixed - that's all. DE put time and effort into weapons like Zarr, Penta or Kulstar. Even Ogris. But players don't use them cause those weapons are completely broken for a lot of people by an unfair self-damage mechanic. It's the same thing with companions and vacuum. People would use other companions more if vacuum was inbuilt into the warframe. It's the same thing. No I don't want things handed to me. I want things to be fair and reliable - that way I can git gud and use the fun weapons I want to use.

Why would you use a less damaging weapon with an ability to oneshot yourself when you could use a more damaging weapon without that risk? The only reason is you want to put an intentional strain on yourself and that goes into self-entertainment territory that has nothing to do with gameplay (or games in general).

P.S. When most players specifically avoid certain content in favour of something else there's always a game-design reason or plain out flaw behind that.

Edited March 13, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[(PSN)CelasVictor]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 

If i were angry, I would write "I'm angry".

You can plainly see the loot on the floor, Vacuum? It goes into every sentinel. Peeps are actually angry about that? lolz
You don't even need to pick up loot after solid two months of playing since you have billions of everything...
There's that entitlement again creeping up.
Or noobs.
Eh.

Blowing yourself up causes self damage. That's logical.
That's what these weapons do.
They are explosive weapons.

Strapping a C4 block to your chest, pulling the cord and complaining you died because of it.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

If i were angry, I would write "I'm angry".

People tend to not do that when they're actually angry.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

Or noobs.

And now you're being toxic. Please keep the conversation civil. The whole "git gud" argument is inherently offencive. Because we don't talk here about the players' ability to use a weapon (or understand what a crit build is). Self-damage is similar to toxic clouds, homing bombards, nullifiers, denial bursas and enemies' immunities of all kinds - it's something that kills you no matter what you do because it's unfair game mechanics and you can't do anything about it no matter how skilled you are. My proposition allows the player a room for error while using self-damaging weapons. To actually make them fun and somewhat reliable but still with a fair drawback to them.

[(PSN)CelasVictor]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

The only reason is you want to put an intentional strain on yourself and that goes into self-entertainment territory that has nothing to do with gameplay (or games in general).

...

I'm not so sure you have actually played this game.
I mean, you MUST HAVE, otherwise you would not have posting rights but c'mon dude.
This entire game is about becoming increasingly harder and more complex.
All the time.
That's what starmap progression is.
Nightmare Mode.
Sorties.
That's the entire point of Trials.
Whole game is designed to be increasingly harder than the last thing you did.
WarFrame is an MMO game it *is* the curve.
You are entertained by the curve.
Arguably that's anything any game really is.
Increasing difficulty curve to challenge you to be better at it so you have fun playing it so it isn't a steady grind of even mush.

6 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

To actually make them fun and somewhat reliable but still with a fair drawback to them.

Benefit is having AoE damage.
Drawback is self damage.

Seems fair to me.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

Benefit is having AoE damage.
Drawback is self damage.

Seems fair to me.

Not when it's a one-shot kill. And there are other aoe weapons that don't have this drawback and people use those instead of the self-damaging ones. 

7 minutes ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

This entire game is about becoming increasingly harder and more complex.
All the time.
That's what starmap progression is.
Nightmare Mode.
Sorties.
That's the entire point of Trials.
Whole game is designed to be increasingly harder than the last thing you did.
WarFrame is an MMO game it *is* the curve.

I'm sorry, but I have to say that you really have no idea what you're talking about here. Anyone can do trials as long as he memorized them. There is no skill in those at all - only sequence of steps, a lot of CC and a tiny bit of basic gear. When was the last time you did LoR and felt it was challenging in anything but bugs?

Nightmare Mode is a walk in the park for a lot of warframes. Again, it's not difficult - it's just a game mode that might be really unfair in some cases. (underscore "unfair")

Sorties are 15 minutes of gameplay once a day for a random reward that always feels underwhelming. (it used to be unfair at the beginning but now it's just impotent and doesn't work at all as an "endgame" it's supposed to be). 

Warframe is a COOP game with a lot of timers restricting your choice of missions, a ton of bugs and unfair game mechanics, a lot of potentially fun gameplay elements but nigh zero actual gameplay for those elements to be used for. At any given moment you can only log in to farm some Kuva or ducats to get gear that you don't really need for any specific endgoal game mode.

There is no curve. No scaling. No rewards for any effort. 

That's what the entire game is about right now. But my suggestion has nothing to do with that. I only suggested a fix for this one particular problem.

[--DSP--]

4 hours ago, (PS4)CelasVictor said:

Ah, so Bladed Rounds/ Hammer Shot.
Still too expensive for me, PS4 has had one event for Acolytes this year and ZERO Hammer Shot alerts.
Meaning you buy it and that's a lot of P.

You don't need Bladed Rounds NOR Hammer Shot.
Bladed Rounds can be a fun addition but Vital Sense and Pointstrike is already enough for a crit build.

[BoomyGordo]

19 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Penta and Kulstar don't have that.

You complain about the zarr doing self damage when enemies spawn ontop of you, and then refuse to use the shotgun mode because another weapon doesnt also have that mechanic?

At this point, all i can see is you desperately clinging to any paper thin flimsy argument you can to try and debunk what i, and others, have told you. that self damage is entirely avoidable. infact from some of your posts im starting to think the way you play the game is just holding W and clicking mouse without any other movment or parkor or using your abilities, because you seem to be completely ignorant any of that exists.

It takes you all of 1 second to move out of the blast radius of everything but the synoid simulor and that doesn't do self damage. you dodge roll away or bullet jump or what ever but the effect is the same. you are out of the blast radius and can shoot and fun fact: these maneuvers let you also dodge bombard rockets.

second option, switch to another weapon to deal with the guy that is too close to you.

 

from all of these posts i have gathered several things. First, you dont want to kill your self. Second, you dont want to take the time to think about the situation to avoid killing your self. Third, you dont want to take the time to aim so your shots dont land too close to you so you dont kill your self. Forth, you dont want to move away from an enemy and just want to insta kill it without your shot insta killing your self.

solution: stop using explosive weapons and just use the tigris or soma prime or go with miramulor since those seem to fit your play style based on these posts

We have all provided ways to avoid killing your self and you ignore them go on calling a weapon unfair because it can kill you. Im starting to think this thread was made for no other reason than to get confirmation bias

Quote

There is no curve. No scaling. No rewards for any effort. 

are we playing the same game? im starting to think we are not and you are on the wrong forums.

Quote

Not when it's a one-shot kill. And there are other aoe weapons that don't have this drawback and people use those instead of the self-damaging ones.

and those other weapons (tonkor,synoid simulor) are some of the most powerful weapons in the entire game. they are infact the reason that riven mods got changed to have a disposition system. they do so much damage over such a large area that the only way to really balance them would be to give them self damage or nerf them into the ground.

Quote

Self-damage is similar to toxic clouds, homing bombards, nullifiers, denial bursas and enemies' immunities of all kinds - it's something that kills you no matter what you do because it's unfair game mechanics and you can't do anything about it no matter how skilled you are.

you realize that moving is an option, and that parkour exists in this game right?

at this point it seems you are just desperately trying to force your opinion as irrefutable fact. you know what? once i get home from work ill record a high level corpus survival alone with the zarr and see just how many times i "cant do anything about" the self damage and nullies and bursas

Edited March 14, 2017 by --Laughing-Soul--

[AperoBeltaTwo]

For the millionth time, my thread is not about Zarr, but about self-damage in general and the lack of proper mechanic behind it.

13 hours ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

you realize that moving is an option, and that parkour exists in this game right?

Eris. Toxic clouds in a corridor. Please, try to parcour your way out of that. Europa, wreckage, Offsprey mines all over the floor blocking the passage. Komba on top of a nullifier. Please, be tactical.

14 hours ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

at this point it seems you are just desperately trying to force your opinion as irrefutable fact. you know what? once i get home from work ill record a high level corpus survival alone with the zarr and see just how many times i "cant do anything about" the self damage and nullies and bursas

Do you know why I said "git gud" argument is inherently offencive? Because the only incentive behind it is to feel good yourself - that's why some people love to use it. My thread is not about skill or ability to get gud. And I'm not here to help people raise their low self-appraisal. I have a concrete proposition considering a particular unattended for years game mechanic. If you have smth to say on the matter, please do. Otherwise please don't offtop. Trying to insult me personally really doesn't help anyone. I spent enough time in this game to know what I'm talking about, and I'm not inclined to engage in a ****-measuring contest.
 

[BoomyGordo]

16 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

For the millionth time, my thread is not about Zarr, but about self-damage in general and the lack of proper mechanic behind it.

Eris. Toxic clouds in a corridor. Please, try to parcour your way out of that. Europa, wreckage, Offsprey mines all over the floor blocking the passage. Komba on top of a nullifier. Please, be tactical.

Do you know why I said "git gud" argument is inherently offencive? Because the only incentive behind it is to feel good yourself - that's why some people love to use it. My thread is not about skill or ability to get gud. And I'm not here to help people raise their low self-appraisal. I have a concrete proposition considering a particular unattended for years game mechanic. If you have smth to say on the matter, please do. Otherwise please don't offtop. Trying to insult me personally really doesn't help anyone. I spent enough time in this game to know what I'm talking about, and I'm not inclined to engage in a ****-measuring contest.
 

and rather than attack any part of my argument you once again ignore it. I, and others, have listed ways to avoid self damage and suicide. no its not about the zarr but the zarr is an example.

Also you cant try to debunk an example i made by saying the thread isnt about something that deals self damage, but self damage in general... and then turn around and use ENEMY AOE ABILITIES as an argument to debunk my suggestion of moving away before shooting.

it isnt an insult to you, its pointing out that you willfully, and consistantly, ignore peoples suggestions in the thread and continue the narrative of there being "no way to avoid" self dmage

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 hours ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

and then turn around and use ENEMY AOE ABILITIES as an argument to debunk my suggestion of moving away before shooting.

Area denial, for God's sake. Area denial. When your path is blocked by one-shot death area-denial abilities or enemies charging at you and completely locking the room, or moas stomping. hookers hooking, balls rolling, or nulls reflecting your grenades at you without being damaged etc. There is a ton of moments in the game where you can not move away. "Git gud" only works in a perfect vacuum of the simulacrum. And by stating the "git gud" argument you don't bring anything to the discussion, yet completely ignore the problem at hand for the sake of getting a one-time ego boost. So please stop the offtop if you have nothing more productive to say.
 

[BoomyGordo]

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Area denial, for God's sake. Area denial. When your path is blocked by one-shot death area-denial abilities or enemies charging at you and completely locking the room, or moas stomping. hookers hooking, balls rolling, or nulls reflecting your grenades at you without being damaged etc. There is a ton of moments in the game where you can not move away. "Git gud" only works in a perfect vacuum of the simulacrum. And by stating the "git gud" argument you don't bring anything to the discussion, yet completely ignore the problem at hand for the sake of getting a one-time ego boost. So please stop the offtop if you have nothing more productive to say.
 

 

 

Situational awareness, for gods sake. SITUATIONAL AWARENESS!!!!! If you are letting your self get surrounded by enemies  to the point where you have no options use your aoe weapon or to move away to use your aoe weapon you need to either A stop ignoring enemies and letting them surround you. B switch to your secondary or melee to deal with enemies till you open a window for you to get out of that situation. this whole topic is about using an AoE weapon that has self damage, you shouldnt ever be letting groups of enemies live long enough to surround you when you are using an AoE weapon. the "git gud" part is learning the weapon. do your first few missions with it OR take it into the simulcrum and just get a feel for the range it has on its explosions. That way you can have a pretty good idea just how close you can shoot it without blowing your self up.

On 3/13/2017 at 5:57 AM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Get gud doesn't work with hoards of enemies charging straight at you even when you're invisible

YOU started the whole git gud thing. ill say again. Its an AoE weapon. a hoard of enemies charging at you is the perfect target for an AoE weapon. Hoard of enemies? wipe them all wiuth 1 shot.

on to the situations you listed;

enemies charge at you? shoot them before they get too close or shoot past them. its an AoE weapon for a reason. let the AoE deal with them. i regularly use the penta and ogris in infestation missions with not much trouble.

moas stomping and knocking you down have nothing to do with self damage, wait till you get up to bullet jump away and shoot. if you get 1 shotted before you can get up then self damage was never an issue in that situation.

hookers hooking. again just wait to recover before moving away to shoot. if you get instakilled before you recover from the knock down? same as above. self damage was not an issue in this situation.

balls rolling? lulwut? you mean roller/grinders rushing you and then stagger/stun locking you? see the above three situations and explanations.

mutalist osprey instakill death clouds are op as heck and need to get looked at, i agree with that. that said they have nothing to do with self damage. sure they can lock a potential pathway down for a few seconds but theres nothing stopping you from going the otherway. if nothing else just switch to your secondary till the cloud is gone. moving through them is a problem... but thats the osprey and not self damage.

nulls reflecting your grenades. this is a situation ive dealt with and has a valid concern since you can, and i have, accidentally shot my self by shooting a null shield and having the rocket (ogris) come right back to hit me in my face. in this situation you move away...... and shoot the ground next to the null shield. nothing about the null shield prevents you moving away. if you are fighting level 100+ nulls then... good luck. their snipers do well over 6k damage per shot (1 shotting my full health/shield mesa while a 95% damage reduction shatter shield is up.. gg de) but again not a self damage issue.

 

you keep telling me im off topic yet pick a single part of my post as evidence of that.. and then go off topic about it your self. perhaps its just best to let this thread die since it seems we are at an impasse

^{_{inb4 all my post are belong to ignore in favor of picking out that "git gud" comment above and going on a tirade about how im off topic again}}

Edited March 15, 2017 by --Laughing-Soul--

[nameomnz]

:Straight to topic:

1.Apply Self-damage to tonkor and all of  the launchers that doesn't damage you, And then the problem will be solved.                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

-This will make all the launcher have the same approach and simular playstyle that actually keeping you fear of making a mistake, Promoting good player.

2.Apply Self-damage Cap to all launchers, And then the problem will be solved.                                                                                                      

-You can just walk into a cloud of enemy and fire to blow them up pretty chilling and somewhat fun. Making your playstyle very passive Like "I dont care"

These are my 2 suggestions. that may or may not good for self-damage situation.

or

Add a new mod that make the launcher have no self-damage

Which maybe not a good idea But posible.

Edited March 16, 2017 by nameomnz

[BoomyGordo]

4 hours ago, nameomnz said:

:Straight to topic:

1.Apply Self-damage to tonkor and all of  the launchers that doesn't damage you, And then the problem will be solved.                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

-This will make all the launcher have the same approach and simular playstyle that actually keeping you fear of making a mistake, Promoting good player.

2.Apply Self-damage Cap to all launchers, And then the problem will be solved.                                                                                                      

-You can just walk into a cloud of enemy and fire to blow them up pretty chilling and somewhat fun. Making your playstyle very passive Like "I dont care"

These are my 2 suggestions. that may or may not good for self-damage situation.

or

Add a new mod that make the luancher have no self-damage

Which maybe not a good idea But posible.

id prefer self damage being added to all weapons with a mod to remove self damage or reduce it. this keeps people from just face planting into groups to kill them and makes them have to actually think to play. then if they cant they have to sacrifice a mod slot to help with that.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 16.03.2017 at 0:59 AM, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

id prefer self damage being added to all weapons with a mod to remove self damage or reduce it. this keeps people from just face planting into groups to kill them and makes them have to actually think to play. then if they cant they have to sacrifice a mod slot to help with that.

Another mandatory band-aid mod. As if we don't have enough of those in the game. You promised me a video.

 

On 15.03.2017 at 8:46 PM, nameomnz said:

:Straight to topic:

1.Apply Self-damage to tonkor and all of  the launchers that doesn't damage you, And then the problem will be solved.                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

-This will make all the launcher have the same approach and simular playstyle that actually keeping you fear of making a mistake, Promoting good player.

2.Apply Self-damage Cap to all launchers, And then the problem will be solved.                                                                                                      

-You can just walk into a cloud of enemy and fire to blow them up pretty chilling and somewhat fun. Making your playstyle very passive Like "I dont care"

These are my 2 suggestions. that may or may not good for self-damage situation.

or

Add a new mod that make the launcher have no self-damage

Which maybe not a good idea But posible.

1. I'm not against it but only with insta-kill self-oneshots fixed.

2. That's basically my whole suggestion. Let self-damage deal a certain capped amount of damage per frame in % of overall EHP and to NEVER deal the finishing blow - to always leave the player with at least 2 hp (as quick thinking does). That way all aoe weapons will be playable and reliable. People will actually have room for skill to be applied and will be less dependant on the dubious fortune of unfair warframe bugs and enemies. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[--CoB--Sorrow]

I don't understand your argument.Self damage is easily avoidable if you have basic knowledge of the game.If you can't handle the self dmg on the specific weapons just dont play with them or try to get better at using them.The only point i can see here is ''why not all high aoe dmg weapons or grenade launchers dont have a similar self dmg drawback"

 

 

[BoomyGordo]

On 3/16/2017 at 6:51 PM, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Another mandatory band-aid mod. As if we don't have enough of those in the game. You promised me a video.

huh thats funny, im using explosive weapons with self damage right now and dont feel like i need a non existant mod to help them out.

also its funny how you ignore my posts and forget you said you didnt want a competion on it.

Quote

and I'm not inclined to engage in a ****-measuring contest.

unless you suddenly changed your mind

 

you keep ignoring anyone who refutes your arguments and just keep pandering the same thing you always have. sure percentile based self damage would be nice but it makes some of the most powerful weapons in the game have no drawback

Edited March 18, 2017 by --Laughing-Soul--

[Steel_Will]

I'm open to the idea of a consistent drawback for explosive weapons, tonkor included, but this would seem to me to be a more appropriate mechanic to use than self damage. A mobility penalty in this game is still pretty severe without necessarily being the immediate death sentence that the self inflicted damage from these weapons usually results in.