Loki Rework

[Zoike]

All the Loki users are gonna pop into this thread just to beat me to a pulp.

 

Now that the Devs have put out the word that they're gonna look at every frame so as to balance them all and make them relevant, I thought I'd do what I can to give my two cents on Loki.

 

Why change Loki when he's the least in need of a rework? Well, he's not perfect. He could be better without being altogether over-powered.

 

If I'm speaking out of my behind and end up getting anything wrong, feel free to let me know.

 

Decoy does not need to be changed. This is always a useful skill, regardless of faction or match type. Because It's so great, I figured that it'd be better to have his other abilities kind of revolve around this one ability. 

 

Teleport Switch is a very interesting ability. A good portion say it has its uses while the another good portion say it is completely situational and useless. I think I'm in between. It has potential, but the main issue is that given the choice between Decoy and Teleport Switch, I'd rather use Decoy. A combination of the two can give you a free-form teleport, but it costs 50 energy, and I honestly would rather just pop Invisibility and wall run to my desired destination. It also has some utility in teams as it allows you to manipulate where allies and enemies are in relation to each other, and I find myself, while ingame, imagining plays I could pull off with this ability, but to my dismay, the plays I have in mind cost to much energy as it involves me using Teleport Switch too many times.

 

Radial disarm is interesting, and it's commonly known that Loki's abilities don't do direct damage. They change the situation and the nature of the problem so it's easier to solve the problem. The issue is that his ultimate does not affect Infested, and that, the range is too little to justify the cost. 

 

Invisibility is invisibility. There's nothing to say about it. Many have grievances with how awesome it is. It's controversial in that it essentially makes the user take no damage for 25 seconds when maxed. After the Devs tinkered around with Rhino's tank mode, Rhino users have cited Loki's invisibility as justification for what was more or less invincibility. 

 

My suggested changes are:

 

Teleport Switch works normally when Decoy hasn't been cast. You can, however, change places with containers or explosive barrels. When Decoy has been cast, a red exclamation mark is placed above its head, signifying that the decoy has its aggro working as intended. Using Teleport Switch on an ally, an enemy, or an inanimate object causes the decoy to switch places with the target instead of Loki. When the decoy switches places with anything, be it Loki, an ally, an enemy, or an explosive Barrel, the exclamation mark transfers to the object that switched places with the decoy. The amount of aggro the decoy had, the object with the exclamation mark now has. The object with the exclamation mark also has armor reduced by 20. If Loki activates Switch Teleport again, the target switches places with the object or individual that has the exclamation mark debuff and receives the debuff. And so on and so forth. If another decoy is created, the new decoy has the debuff, regardless of who had the debuff prior. Have I lost you? I hope not.

 

Radial Disarm works normally, unless a Decoy has been cast. If a Decoy has been cast, the decoy casts Radial Disarm, and Loki casts Radial Blind (Radial Blind but with greater range and with a longer blind duration than that of Excalibur.)

 

The greatest change would be that the abilities would charge stamina, not energy. The amounts would vary, but the costs should be fixed so that each ability can be cast at least once when the stamina bar is full, without any stamina mods. Why did I ask for the Teleport Switch changes when just the Stamina/Energy change is enough to fix the ability's cons? The change opens up lots of tactical possibilities. Honestly, aggro on an explosive barrel? Why the heck not?

 

The next suggestion will provoke lots of flaming.

 

Invisibility will be a passive that activates whenever Loki uses up Stamina.  This includes blocking, running, wall running, the activation of abilities, etc.

 

EDIT: Grammar

ur first sentence made me both chuckle and respect u a little. i mean at least u knew what u were getting into (right?)

from my avatar im obviously a loki player and while i was indifferent about most of it when i read the stuff about stamina and invis i was like "No :l" it would totally mess up the entire game in ways u wouldnt........ just no.

anyway think the best way to make a lot of his abilities more useful would be to simply decrease cast time lokis all about speed and tricks so y make his tricks take so long to cast? its just kinda annoying when ur running while being shot at and u want a quick low cost way to divert attention away from u for a moment so tht u can gain your bearings enough to counter attack so u press 1 only to lose all of your momentum and killing the counter because ur waiting for ur shield to recharge (or something like tht i hope u get what im saying) so i say at the if they change anything about loki the should get rid of the cast time on decoy (and if willing make the switch tele anitmation much faster as it kills momentum too) 

lastly they NEED to make sentinel invis as well as loki (i seem to remember a certain promise concerning this.........anyone else remember?)

o yeah and sry bout grammar bla bla bla..... (pretty sure all of u have enough brain to understand what im saying)

 

(lol just realized my post had almost nothing to do with the current discussion XD )

Edited July 26, 2013 by Zoike

[whitejackale]

That's unfair.  Why do you feel like you need to pass judgement on what someone else finds fun.  I may not find what you do fun, but I wouldn't call your chosen "fun" activity sad as a result.

 

If you don't understand it, fine... but don't sit there and claim superiority.   Some people do like EZ mode (I don't, but whatever) and if they want to keep it, fine... you're not obligated to use it, who cares what they do?

 

I personally find hit-scan weapons to be skilless and boring, but I don't crap on players who use Hek and don't understand how easy it is to use vs. a crappy Paris... you like hitscan, fine... I'm not going to look down on you for it, I'll just stick to my "fun" Paris and be bad at the game :)

My choice of words might have been a bit strong. I was merely trying to point out that sitting there in permanent stealth while killing everything in sight is not an activity that should be enjoyable. I really do not care about how people choose to play. I just do not like the way in which Loki's stealth mechanic works because it takes almost no effort to sit there in stealth killing everything. Alas, I have a similar problem with all of the warframe abilities that I find to be way too powerful because I like to focus on melee/gun combat.

[whitejackale]

I was looking for way to define Loki as he feels now, and you just said it. He feels outdated. And forgotten. Loki only needs minor tweaks to Decoy and Radial Disarm. Remove or nerf invisibility and you will kill him completely. People are forgetting that Loki doenst have panic mode power that instakills mobs.

I do not think that stealth needs to be completely removed, but it definitely needs to be tweaked so that he can't sit there for almost 30 seconds at a time without any enemy detecting him.

[whitejackale]

If Loki never had invisibility to begin with, would you still be defending that? Or now that he has invisibility and is part of who he is, do you not want to change him because you don't want to lose part of Loki's identity, or because you actually like the stealth aspect of his gameplay (which is almost ALL of his gameplay.)

 

Loki is described as a trickster; being tricky does not mean being invisible. That's why I suggested the distorted dodge mechanic. Making something of a smoke bomb would be more along Ash's style, and cooldowns cannot be tacked onto only one frame. It will have to be equally and fairly distributed among the entire warframe lineup, and that's a huge game changing commitment.

 

So, even if you still DO like his invis, you can't deny it's used pretty frivolously to the point where it's all Loki does. (Or can do.)

Maybe a mixture of our abilities?

He goes invisible to start, but once he starts sprinting / parkouring / melee / shooting, he loses his stealth and it turns into that distortion dodge effect, but after 2 seconds of inactivity, he returns to full invis. 

I fell like they need to make a huge game changing commitment with the abilities in warframe. Being able to spam abilities so long as there are energy spheres lying around is boring. They need to change the ability system into something more interesting.

[fatpig84]

Leave loki invisibility as it is.

 

Yes I like being near perma invisible, if you got a problem with it then don't use Loki.

 

Loki is a fragile frame, low shields AND low health. Armor doesn't even help him that much.

His abilities are all about mitigating damage on him (decoy, Invisibility and radial disarm), remove it and he loses his flair.

 

He doesn't have Rhino's temporary shield nor the stomp that makes everything easy pickings.

He doesn't have Frost Snowglobe that turns bosses into an immobile rock or avalanche which freezes everything.

He doesn't even compete with Vauban or Nyx in the CC category.

 

Just leave him alone.
If you hate perma stealth, then get DE to introduce enemies that have a way to deal with the stealth mechanic, not nerf his abilities.

Edited July 26, 2013 by fatpig84

[Troublechutor]

 

Just leave him alone.

If you hate perma stealth, then get DE to introduce enemies that have a way to deal with the stealth mechanic, not nerf his abilities.

I thought the greneer drones were going to be that kind of thing... but the ballon popping bananza was just a gimmick to get weekend grind I guess.

 

Anyway, the problem with perma-invis is that it overshadows all his other abilities, but is useless for defense/rescue missions except in rare circumstances because of aggro-dropping.  It's god mode, no other way to put it.  That having been said, without it, Loki would be unplayable.

[whitejackale]

I thought the greneer drones were going to be that kind of thing... but the ballon popping bananza was just a gimmick to get weekend grind I guess.

 

Anyway, the problem with perma-invis is that it overshadows all his other abilities, but is useless for defense/rescue missions except in rare circumstances because of aggro-dropping.  It's god mode, no other way to put it.  That having been said, without it, Loki would be unplayable.

I play loki without using his stealth.

[Troublechutor]

I play loki without using his stealth.

Show me your pluto game please.

[RoboDoge]

Show me your pluto game please.

Rush mode activated. And on def missions stealth is useless for anything else than rezzing your team mates. If you use stealth for damage ( and most people use it for that ) then you should realize that at some point damage output starts to drop off. Loki isnt all stealth, just try to use him differently and maybe you will discover his true potential. Stationary Loki=Bad Loki imo.

[Troublechutor]

@Robodog

 

Team play is ez-mode... any frame can sleepwalk though team games.  

 

I don't equip any defensive mods... all rush, fast recover, marathon mods maxed out.  

 

Here is my youtube channel : http://www.youtube.com/user/Troublechutor

 

Feel free to watch the few warframe uploads I have there as examples of what UD9 is like for me in race-car mode.  Examples I've not uploaded include solo play with full invis for pluto farming for mods, because rush mode isn't going to get you much in the way of drops (since you're not killing anything).  

 

I'm also curious how anyone is soloing bosses like phorid or ambulas without ever going invisible... unless you're glitching some AI, which makes your argument invalid.

[Kielix7]

Leave loki invisibility as it is.

 

Yes I like being near perma invisible, if you got a problem with it then don't use Loki.

 

Just leave him alone.

If you hate perma stealth, then get DE to introduce enemies that have a way to deal with the stealth mechanic, not nerf his abilities.

 

Everyone remember what I was saying about Loki-lovers stating Invisibility is fine?

Well, I gotta go to the store to get more cigars, so I'll be enjoying this thoroughly later.

[Paprika]

I'm glad I created this thread. I could walk into a random thread, say "I have trouble with such and such," and just walked away, but I'm starting to see this situation from many different viewpoints. Looking back at my suggestions, it's easy to say that they were misguided, one-dimensional, and uninformed. My main concern was with how I felt I couldn't use Switch Teleport enough and how Invisibility and Radial Disarm could be changed. 

 

We've come to these conclusions:

 

Decoy is a problem because 

- It looks kinda ridiculous (for some, this matters a lot)

- It doesn't scale well

- The point of it was to put enemies out of action for a few seconds to give you and your teammates breathing room. It dies too quickly to do that.

 

Switch Teleport isn't a main concern in this thread.

- So far, only minor tweaks were suggested like applying a minor cc on the target who was teleported.

- As it turns out, it was only me that felt it couldn't be used enough.

 

Radial Disarm isn't a main concern.

- The only changes suggested for this move were all added cc's to affect infested or turn them into crawlers

 

Invisibility was a hot topic.

- People don't like how it's a mandatory skill now due to the increased damage output on enemies.

  - As a rebuttal, I've been told that it's only mandatory because we're not using the right weapons, but frankly, if the plausible load-outs are limited to snipers only, this isn't because Loki's a hard character to play and requires thought, it's because his squishiness makes him too reliant on invisibility.

- Many are feeling that if Invisibility is the only reliable feature on Loki, something's being done wrong.

 

What to keep in mind when coming up with a moveset for Loki:

- He's squishy. His moves have to be engineered to keep damage away from him, while still inconveniencing the enemy.

- He shouldn't deal damage.

 

Here's what I'm suggesting.

 

Ability one (Flash) 25 points

 

Loki creates an orb (it's casting functions similar to Decoy)

 

After 10 seconds, the orb activates.

 

Activating the orb causes it to cast something similar to Radial Blind. The duration of the blind is affected by mods.

 

casting Invisibility or damaging the orb activates the orb. Undecided as to whether or not the orb should have aggro.

 

Switch Teleport 25 or 20 points

 

Functions normally. If there is an orb present, the target switches places with the orb instead of Loki. Loki can switch places with orbs.

 

Invisiblity 50 points

 

Functions nomally, except if Loki deals damage to an enemy or fires a non-silenced weapon, enemies fire in the direction of the shot. All melee attacks crit. All Stealth melee attacks red crit. If Loki stealth kills someone in front of an enemy, the witness attacks in Loki's direction. (optional: Loki gets shield recharge rate buff whilst using Invisibility).

 

Radial Disarm 75 points

 

Functions normally. If an orb is present, Loki casts Radial Disarm, and orb explodes with a blast radius equal to Loki's Radial Disarm. The exploding orb ragdolls enemies. No other effects. No damage is dealt.

[Kielix7]

-summary-

 

Two things:

 

One is what I talked about before, making Invisibility not a 100% all-the-time invis, him running / attacking breaks the stealth (contrary to enemies randomly firing in the direction of the shot) and Loki gains some dodge % chance. 

 

The other is making Radial Disarm do some sort of damage. Weapons exploding in your hands should cause a small amount of damage. Not a nuke, but not zero damage.

[whitejackale]

Show me your pluto game please.

What do I get out of showing you how to play a Loki without using stealth?

[Troublechutor]

What do I get out of showing you how to play a Loki without using stealth?

Nothing, I can go on calling bullS#&$ on ya though.  I guess that we can just agree that anyone can claim anything though, so your contribution is "I do x".

 

My reply then is, here's a cookie.

[Eso233]

I can beat that.

I personally hate all ultimate(slot 4) abilities and would love to see them all removed from the game.

Hit me. 

I actually agree with this, its like an ESC button for all warframes. This isn't maplestory, you shouldn't be let out just because things got too hard.

[whitejackale]

Nothing, I can go on calling bullS#&$ on ya though.  I guess that we can just agree that anyone can claim anything though, so your contribution is "I do x".

 

My reply then is, here's a cookie.

I do not like to use fraps on my current computer because it lowers my fps quite a bit. That you lack the skill necessary to imagine anyone completing pluto missions without using lokis invisibility has motivated me to go through the trouble of uploading a clip of me doing a pluto mission without using any abilities. I am even going to do this with an unmodded deathcube. Be aware that I am not the best geared of players, and so I can imagine that pluto would be a lot easier for someone that can survive 2-3 times longer than me while putting out 100-200% more damage than me.

[Troublechutor]

I do not like to use fraps on my current computer because it lowers my fps quite a bit. That you lack the skill necessary to imagine anyone completing pluto missions without using lokis invisibility has motivated me to go through the trouble of uploading a clip of me doing a pluto mission without using any abilities. I am even going to do this with an unmodded deathcube. Be aware that I am not the best geared of players, and so I can imagine that pluto would be a lot easier for someone that can survive 2-3 times longer than me while putting out 100-200% more damage than me.

Whatever dude, the 9.3 patch toned down some of the difficulty, so solo is back on the menu anyway.

 

You say you never use invis, I'm calling you a liar.  I suppose you can hek/ogris/acrid around some of the time, but everyone is going to use it to escape once in a while. 

 

Simple as that... you can upload youtubes of your elite loki skill, and I'll be quiet... but otherwise, I'm just putting you in the "likes to talk" bin.

[whitejackale]

Whatever dude, the 9.3 patch toned down some of the difficulty, so solo is back on the menu anyway.

 

You say you never use invis, I'm calling you a liar.  I suppose you can hek/ogris/acrid around some of the time, but everyone is going to use it to escape once in a while. 

 

Simple as that... you can upload youtubes of your elite loki skill, and I'll be quiet... but otherwise, I'm just putting you in the "likes to talk" bin.

It is very interesting that you continue to say that I am all talk when I have accepted your challenge to upload a video. Once I upload the video you will see that pluto missions can be done without using stealth. Also, I am not the best geared loki. So your argument about going in there with very powerful weapons is invalid. I used an unformad braton with a 40% multishot and kunai as my off weapon.

 

edit: please do not reply until I upload the video. I do not want to see irrational comments beforehand.

Edited July 27, 2013 by whitejackale

[Mysteryman2000]

Q.Q you guys need to get a life.  The warframes are all ok,  Loki is meant for advanced players who know how to do some serious damage.  More of a melee warframe if you ask me.  The skills are fine, the warframe is fine, the game is fine, other than the recent crashing.

[whitejackale]

Q.Q you guys need to get a life.  The warframes are all ok,  Loki is meant for advanced players who know how to do some serious damage.  More of a melee warframe if you ask me.  The skills are fine, the warframe is fine, the game is fine, other than the recent crashing.

The description of Loki is that he is meant for advanced players, but it takes almost no skill to play him once you have the right mods. Being able to stealth for almost 20 seconds at a time while being able to continuously attack takes almost no skill. I am simply looking for a stealth mechanic that takes him out of stealth temporarily every time that he attack and enemy, along with maybe a slight damage buff when attacking from stealth for the extra risk. For example, if he received a 150-200% damage bonus instead of 100% along with maybe half a second of being visible when attacking from stealth would be a lot more interesting than continuously attacking for close to 20 seconds with the enemy doing nothing.

[whitejackale]

Whatever dude, the 9.3 patch toned down some of the difficulty, so solo is back on the menu anyway.

 

You say you never use invis, I'm calling you a liar.  I suppose you can hek/ogris/acrid around some of the time, but everyone is going to use it to escape once in a while. 

 

Simple as that... you can upload youtubes of your elite loki skill, and I'll be quiet... but otherwise, I'm just putting you in the "likes to talk" bin.

Here is some footage of my playing loki without using any abilities in a random pluto mission. The weapon used was a braton that has never been formad, it only had a 40% multi shot mod. The kunai were formad twice and are my best weapon. If you want I can upload a screenshot of my terrible mods and non formad loki with terrible mods. I also did this with a death cube with no mods on its weapon, which is probably the worst choice for going out to solo on a loki without using abilities.

 

Anyone with decent mods would have a much easier time soloing on loki without using abilities, especially with more powerful weapons. I hope that this is enough for you and that you do not ask me to play another mission at 30 fps.

 

[legionufo]

Is this thread wrong place? :((

[Tidezen]

First off, we need to take the internet hyperbole down a notch.  Loki doesn't have perma invis.  Here're the actual numbers:  Invis lasts 12 seconds at max rank; this can be increased by Continuity (+30% duration at max) and Constitution (+28% duration at max).  They stack for a +58%, so at max, Loki has 18.96 seconds per cast.

 

To reduce the energy costs we have Streamline (30% reduction at max) and the Loki Essence helm (another 15%).  Wiki tells me those also stack, so we have 45% reduction, .55 x 50 = 27.5 energy.

 

Now we take into account Energy Siphon.  At max rank, it's giving us .6 energy per second. Rounding up to 19 seconds for invis, we gain back 11.4 energy during its duration.  So invis has an effective cost of 16.1 (27.5 - 11.4) per cast, while solo.  Not perma.

 

Now, you can stack Energy Siphons in your group, two would give you 22.8 energy per invis.  Three max ES would give you 34.2 per 19 seconds, thus making invis energy positive and therefore perma. 

 

However, to make that build actually work, you're giving up two full mod slots for this ONE ability (Constitution and Continuity).  Yeah, they happen to work on decoy too, but that isn't worth a single tiny S#&$ right now.  So there is a big cost associated with maxing invis like that, you're giving up a quarter to a third of your slots for this one ability.  And having to have two other people come along and support you with their Energy Siphons.

 

People might say, "But a lot of people run Energy Siphon anyway, it's not a big deal."  Yeah, that's right, BUT, Energy Siphon works on everybody.  So it's not exactly a balance issue...with multiple people running Energy Siphon, Frost can also perma Snow Globe.  Vauban can come really close to perma Bastille. Nova...well Nova.  Multiple Energy Siphons make A LOT of abilities free or almost free.  This isn't an issue with just Loki.

 

The problem with Loki isn't invis.  It's that invis is a relatively better option when compared to his other abilities, almost always.  THAT's what we should be trying to fix, making his other abilities seem at least worth the cast time versus invis.

 

The quickest fix?  Swap places--Switch Teleport 25 energy, Decoy 50 (and buff it so it scales or is invincible for duration) and invis at 75 (so all the QQers can can go home).

 

Really, Loki doesn't need all that much, he's a really strong support frame, and it's really kinda fun not having a "press 4 to clear this room".  Makes you think a bit.

 

Anyway, love this frame, love this game, thanks DE for making such a good one.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Tidezen

[Tidezen]

Is this thread wrong place? :((

 

Yeah, you're right, it should be in Warframe Feedback.