About Burst Weapons

[Wooffgang]

Logical thinking:

 

Burst Fire rate - Trade off fire speed for accuracy and damage

Automatic Fire rate - Trade off accuracy and damage for constant fire

 

In warframe they are switched. So one simple solution: Make the burst fire shots be pinpoint accurate with minimal recoil and increase the recoil between each burst. One would expect the Burston to be more accurate than the Braton. The same issue is shared by the Kraken and the Sicarus. At the moment in order to get the max out of a burst fire weapon you need to be in shotgun range. In the mid range you need to go for a body shot in order to get a headshot and on long range.... Forget about the other bullets if you want a headshot.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Kyryu

[Aure7]

Yeah agree for sure, was disappointed when I got my burston 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Recoil on the burst weapons is very predictable.  Slide your mouse down to get three headshots or just be lazy and aim at the chest and  let it walk up and hit them in the head.

 

As I've said before, I have nothing against burst weapons with delayed recoil, but the thing is, if you push it to the end on the Burston, you will end up with a pinpoint weapon that does altogether too much damage.  You'll make all other semi-auto weapons obsolete instantly.  Now, if you want to add in another burst weapon that has a much tighter burst and has delayed recoil with lower damage, I'd be fine with that.  That wouldn't make other weapons obsolete.  The Burston right now just happens to be exorbitantly powerful by the numbers because it has to compensate for a bug with its fire rate that impairs all semi-autos.

 

It does not need more love and one could easily argue that it is now the best semi-auto in the game.

 

I don't know how I feel about delayed recoil on the Sicarus and Kraken.  I haven't used them enough to know, but given their current damage, such a change would probably be okay.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[taiiat]

hold up. burst weapons shouldn't be pinpoint accurate, then it's a sniper rifle. however the spread on the Burston for ex. while good, does feel a bit peculiar for a marksman weapon.
just a couple degrees less spread would fix it. a tiny bit.
i've sometimes seen bursts on the Burston spreading sideways a slightly alarming amount for what i expect from a marksman weapon. still plenty accurate, though.

as for controlling the recoil on a Burston, i can usually hit all 3 rounds where i wanted them at medium range... and generally at long range.
compensate for the recoil and it shoots nicely. speed trigger shortens the cycle, which also seems to reduce recoil.

 

 

i've always felt the Kraken should be a two shot gun rather than a burst gun. idk. the two shot burst feels weird on a pistol. i expected it to fire both shots almost instantaneously. 

Edited July 22, 2013 by taiiat

[DaqDavis]

I appreciated the recent buff to the Burston.  I'd relegated it to a 'training' weapon when I got new Warframes, but now I'm using it with a bit more confidence on Earth and Mars.

[Rhorge]

So, you want burst weapons to have pinpoint accuracy and no recoil until after the burst. In other words, you want them to behave 100% like a semi-automatic with higher damage and ammo consumption. No.

[Arkhangel07]

I am enjoying my Burston quite a bit, I think we have to keep in mind a few things, if we want highly accurate burst weapons than one of two things needs to happen. Slower rate of fire and or less dmg to compensate. Remember that the fully automatic weapons tend to do pretty pathetic DMG per shot, it seems in this game you trade speed for DMG and accuracy for the same. I wouldn't mind a more accurate burst rifle that does less damage as an alternative :)

[Saenol]

I agree that recoil should be delayed till the end of a burst, as this is the whole purpose behind many weapons that have burst fire as their primary or only automatic mode.

 

However, even the current weapons can be useful at range, because if you practice dropping your crosshair just before and during the burst, you can make all shots go to nearly the same point.

 

 I wouldn't mind a more accurate burst rifle that does less damage as an alternative :)

 

Burston is already very accurate.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Saenol

[Webly]

I definitely agree with you OP.

I had an idea awhile back to make the RoF mods, Gunslinger and Speed trigger, affect the actual burst RoF, but not the the space between bursts so much.  So with a maxed Speed Trigger you could have the Burston fire all its rounds (per burst) into virtually the same spot from nearly sniper ranges.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Webly

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I definitely agree with you OP.

I had an idea awhile back to make the RoF mods, Gunslinger and Speed trigger, affect the actual burst RoF, but not the the space between bursts so much.  So with a maxed Speed Trigger you could have the Burston fire all its rounds (per burst) into virtually the same spot from nearly sniper ranges.

That is how it used to work and it was terrible so it was changed.

[Webly]

That is how it used to work and it was terrible so it was changed.

 

When?  I came up with this during u7.  

 

Also how was it bad?  I think you might have misunderstood what I said.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Webly

[taiiat]

Also how was it bad?  I think you might have misunderstood what I said.

it was bad because if the Burston did the same damage it does now with that accuracy, it would be in the top 5 guns to use in the game (not including Clantech ofc).

[Quackerz]

Ive never really thought about it but its actually completely true, at range without compensating the bullets spread by metres even with improved RoF. You can say compensation makes it okay but it prevents repeatedly firing at one long distance target as you end up aiming below after the burst.

[Dipstick]

Recoil on the burst weapons is very predictable.  Slide your mouse down to get three headshots or just be lazy and aim at the chest and  let it walk up and hit them in the head.

 

As I've said before, I have nothing against burst weapons with delayed recoil, but the thing is, if you push it to the end on the Burston, you will end up with a pinpoint weapon that does altogether too much damage.  You'll make all other semi-auto weapons obsolete instantly.  Now, if you want to add in another burst weapon that has a much tighter burst and has delayed recoil with lower damage, I'd be fine with that.  That wouldn't make other weapons obsolete.  The Burston right now just happens to be exorbitantly powerful by the numbers because it has to compensate for a bug with its fire rate that impairs all semi-autos.

 

It does not need more love and one could easily argue that it is now the best semi-auto in the game.

 

I don't know how I feel about delayed recoil on the Sicarus and Kraken.  I haven't used them enough to know, but given their current damage, such a change would probably be okay.

This is a garbage excuse for burst weapons...

 

There is something messed up in the engine that creates a problem with the burst weapons that tie their fire rate to framerate. The burston does great damage, but it suffers from this problem more than any other weapon.

 

Also, the second problem with the burston is that it is a shining example of whats wrong with recoil in this game. Recoil is wildly inconsistent across the board, and needs a major overhaul. Owning every gun (except spectre, flux, and hikou), I can say that not every gun was created equal....

[Rhorge]

There is something messed up in the engine that creates a problem with the burst weapons that tie their fire rate to framerate. The burston does great damage, but it suffers from this problem more than any other weapon.

^ This. Played some T3 defense earlier and during intense moments my Burston took over a second to fire one burst (fps dropped to about 20).

[Volt_Cruelerz]

This is a garbage excuse for burst weapons...

There is something messed up in the engine that creates a problem with the burst weapons that tie their fire rate to framerate. The burston does great damage, but it suffers from this problem more than any other weapon.

Also, the second problem with the burston is that it is a shining example of whats wrong with recoil in this game. Recoil is wildly inconsistent across the board, and needs a major overhaul. Owning every gun (except spectre, flux, and hikou), I can say that not every gun was created equal....

You know you're talking to the person that did the testing for that bug and publicized it to make it well known, right?

Also, how is what I said a garbage response?

When? I came up with this during u7.

Also how was it bad? I think you might have misunderstood what I said.

Because the issue with the Burston was how quickly you could drop a horde of enemies,not the speed with which you can dispatch a single target which has always been the duration of one burst for the vast majority of enemies in the game. The recoil is very controllable and when controlled, the weapon is highly accurate, even at long range.

Also, I forget which patch it was, but the Burston has gone through four or five different mechanics since I started playing.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Dipstick]

You know you're talking to the person that did the testing for that bug and publicized it to make it well known, right?

 

I actually heard about it first in the live stream (one awhile back) where steve admitted to there being an engine problem with the burst weapons and plans to rework them later. After the most recent buff to the burston, I used it a bunch. After playing some void, I noticed its performance was dramatically worse there than it was on the spaceship or the asteroid base. I turned on Fraps and say that whenever I got more than 45 frames the burston was god, but anything less than 30 (which seems to be the norm in the void, no matter how many settings i turn off) and then you might as well use an MK1.

 

 

Also, how is what I said a garbage response?

 

The "garbage" comment was directed at the "slide your mouse down" claim that everyone who loves the burston seems to make. It is a poor solution for bad weapon design on DE's part. Plus, after sliding that mouse down you have you slide it back up or else you'll be aiming at peoples feet.

[Rhorge]

The "garbage" comment was directed at the "slide your mouse down" claim that everyone who loves the burston seems to make. It is a poor solution for bad weapon design on DE's part. Plus, after sliding that mouse down you have you slide it back up or else you'll be aiming at peoples feet.

Well, if everyone that loves the Burston tells you to slide your mouse down because that's how they use the weapon, they are probably right and the response is far from garbage.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I actually heard about it first in the live stream (one awhile back) where steve admitted to there being an engine problem with the burst weapons and plans to rework them later. After the most recent buff to the burston, I used it a bunch. After playing some void, I noticed its performance was dramatically worse there than it was on the spaceship or the asteroid base. I turned on Fraps and say that whenever I got more than 45 frames the burston was god, but anything less than 30 (which seems to be the norm in the void, no matter how many settings i turn off) and then you might as well use an MK1.

The "garbage" comment was directed at the "slide your mouse down" claim that everyone who loves the burston seems to make. It is a poor solution for bad weapon design on DE's part. Plus, after sliding that mouse down you have you slide it back up or else you'll be aiming at peoples feet.

So, because it doesn't fit what your want, you want to change it despite a sizeable chunk of the community liking it as it is now. I've said before and will again, I'm fine with adding another burst weapon that has delayed recoil and lower rate. Edited July 25, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Webly]

I saw that in the Livestream too, and they "can't remember" what actually supports their claims.

 

I'm pretty sure "Volt_Cruelerz" is making things up, disregard them.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I saw that in the Livestream too, and they "can't remember" what actually supports their claims.

 

I'm pretty sure "Volt_Cruelerz" is making things up, disregard them.

First off, here's the thread I made a while back about the semi-auto bug: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/58427-fire-rate-on-semi-autos-is-meaningless/  I'd talked about it before that and had done some informal testing, but that was when I formalized things and published the results for all to see.

 

Next, I've been around since January, you've been here since April.  Just because you weren't here for things doesn't mean they didn't happen.  I've been using the Burston since the Pro system existed and I happened to be one of the very few people that loved the idea of a burst weapon even back when it was probably the worst in the game enough to use my starting plat to pro it (this was before potatoes existed and there was no way outside of buying platinum or using your starting plat that you could pro a weapon).  The Burston is my most-used weapon (you can look up my stats in-game if you don't believe me).

 

And time for a history lesson on the Burston's changes:

 

When I first joined, it was a burst weapon with random recoil all over the map.  The only way to kill with it was to load up with 400% multishot (this was possible prior to Update 7).  The spread was completely random and really was just an accurate shotgun once multishot was used.  Later, it was changed to be random spread unless you happened to be aiming at the head of an enemy at which point it would suddenly become laser-accurate and you could headshot from across the map so long as you had your reticle in the right spot.  Then, it got changed to be a vertical climb.  

 

Up until this point, the rate on the burst weapons displayed the rate at which bullets were fired within a burst, not the number of bursts per second.  As a result, using rate mods would increase the rate at which the bullets were fired but not the number of bursts per second.  Eventually, the devs changed this last remaining issue with the burst weapons and you could suddenly mod the weapons using speed mods in a useful manner such that you could dispatch more enemies in less time.

 

Be a little more confident next time before calling bs.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[MECT_HET]

Burst weapons were never about accuracy. The only thing short burts provides is more control of the fire as conclusion the better ammo perfomance. Look at Famas and Glock in CS. Do they shoot more accurate than the regular automated guns? Not sure.

[Webly]

Up until this point, the rate on the burst weapons displayed the rate at which bullets were fired within a burst, not the number of bursts per second.  As a result, using rate mods would increase the rate at which the bullets were fired but not the number of bursts per second.  Eventually, the devs changed this last remaining issue with the burst weapons and you could suddenly mod the weapons using speed mods in a useful manner such that you could dispatch more enemies in less time.

 

Be a little more confident next time before calling bs.

 

Not a single person I know from CB (I'm in a fairly big clan) ever heard of this, I think you're just trying to make up an excuse for the mechanics to stay the same because you like them.

Just explain why you like them, don't make things up.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Not a single person I know from CB (I'm in a fairly big clan) ever heard of this, I think you're just trying to make up an excuse for the mechanics to stay the same because you like them.

Just explain why you like them, don't make things up.

Well, you're wrong.  If you look around the forums, you'll periodically find someone who doesn't know that the listed rate on them got changed from bullets/second (within a burst) to bursts per second.  I and others have been working to correct them ever since the change which unfortunately was not very well publicized at the time.  That's why in the generic post I would use to respond to "buff the burston" threads (found halfway down this page: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55837-so-burston-ever-getting-a-buff/page-2#entry579629) and in the semi-auto rate thread I mention something along the lines of "for those that don't know, the rate is actually the bursts per second."

 

If you have failed to find anyone that recalls the mechanics of the Burston, that's on you.  Look harder or stop calling bs just because you weren't there and don't know someone who was.

 

Your stupidity on this matter has gone on long enough.  Time to put an end to it.  Here is a thread that I wrote prior to the change:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/8453-burston-vs-braton-and-everything-else-for-that-matter/?hl=%2Bvolt_cruelerz+%2Bburston+%2Brate#entry68487

 

or how about here in which a now-community moderator commented on it:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/10786-braton-vandal-burston/?hl=%2Bvolt_cruelerz+%2Bburston+%2Brate

 

and shortly after the change was made, I responded to it here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/14052-burston-still-doesnt-feel-up-to-par/?hl=%2Bvolt_cruelerz+%2Bburston+%2Brate#entry119476

 

The world does not revolve around you and your perspective is not fact.  Just because you haven't witnessed something and don't know someone who did doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Just because I don't have sources on-hand doesn't mean I'm not right.  I was on my phone at the time and didn't feel like double-checking to see exactly when things happened because my phone doesn't like to play nice with the forums.

 

Thank you for playing.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.  

 

Oh, and for the record, why do I like the current system?  Because it rewards effort, at least on some level.  Previous installments of the weapon didn't.  At first it was an accurate shotgun which clearly doesn't reward any effort beyond grinding for multishot mods.  It got changed over time and each time, the devs made progress towards something that rewards some level of effort.  I know not everyone likes this which is why as I've said before several times, I'd be fine with a delayed-recoil burst rifle.  Same damage, same mag, same everything except rate.  Drop the rate a bit on the new gun from what it is on the Burston, and I'd be fine with that.  I like weapons that require some effort or thought to use.  I don't like point-click-dead.  As an example, I liked the travel time on the old Dera more than the new one.  Sure, for balance reasons, the speed boost was very useful, but for my own personal taste, I liked it slower with a greater lead time.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Webly]

Well, you're wrong.  If you look around the forums, you'll periodically find someone who doesn't know that the listed rate on them got changed from bullets/second (within a burst) to bursts per second.  I and others have been working to correct them ever since the change which unfortunately was not very well publicized at the time.  That's why in the generic post I would use to respond to "buff the burston" threads (found halfway down this page: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55837-so-burston-ever-getting-a-buff/page-2#entry579629) and in the semi-auto rate thread I mention something along the lines of "for those that don't know, the rate is actually the bursts per second."

 

If you have failed to find anyone that recalls the mechanics of the Burston, that's on you.  Look harder or stop calling bs just because you weren't there and don't know someone who was.

 

Well, if you insist on being an idiot, here's proof you're wrong:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/8453-burston-vs-braton-and-everything-else-for-that-matter/?hl=%2Bvolt_cruelerz+%2Bburston+%2Brate#entry68487

 

or how about here in which a now-moderator commented on it:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/10786-braton-vandal-burston/?hl=%2Bvolt_cruelerz+%2Bburston+%2Brate

 

and shortly after the change was made: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/14052-burston-still-doesnt-feel-up-to-par/?hl=%2Bvolt_cruelerz+%2Bburston+%2Brate#entry119476

 

Well, you're wrong.  If you look around the forums, you'll periodically find someone who doesn't know that the listed rate on them got changed from bullets/second (within a burst) to bursts per second.  I and others have been working to correct them ever since the change which unfortunately was not very well publicized at the time.  That's why in the generic post I would use to respond to "buff the burston" threads (found halfway down this page: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55837-so-burston-ever-getting-a-buff/page-2#entry579629) and in the semi-auto rate thread I mention something along the lines of "for those that don't know, the rate is actually the bursts per second."

 

If you have failed to find anyone that recalls the mechanics of the Burston, that's on you.  Look harder or stop calling bs just because you weren't there and don't know someone who was.

 

Well, if you insist on being an idiot, here's proof you're wrong:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/8453-burston-vs-braton-and-everything-else-for-that-matter/?hl=%2Bvolt_cruelerz+%2Bburston+%2Brate#entry68487

 

or how about here in which a now-moderator commented on it:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/10786-braton-vandal-burston/?hl=%2Bvolt_cruelerz+%2Bburston+%2Brate

 

and shortly after the change was made: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/14052-burston-still-doesnt-feel-up-to-par/?hl=%2Bvolt_cruelerz+%2Bburston+%2Brate#entry119476

 

The world does not revolve around you and your perspective is not fact.  Just because you haven't witnessed something and don't know someone who did doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Just because I don't have sources on-hand doesn't mean I'm not right.  I was on my phone at the time and didn't feel like double-checking to see exactly when things happened.

 

Thank you for playing.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.  

 

The world does not revolve around you and your perspective is not fact.  Just because you haven't witnessed something and don't know someone who did doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Just because I don't have sources on-hand doesn't mean I'm not right.  I was on my phone at the time and didn't feel like double-checking to see exactly when things happened.

 

Thank you for playing.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.  

 

That angry damage control.

 

Well I've checked your sources and other people from the closed beta and I can see why you're getting so defensive, you got caught in a lie.

The Burston's burst used to be the only thing affected by RoF mods, but about to the same degree they are now.  Currently RoF mods affect both the burst and the refire.  That was the only change in this regard, they let it affect the refire too.

I suggested them having little to no effect on refire and a greatly increased effect on the burst itself.  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/84452-about-burst-weapons/#entry943354

The Burston never functioned that way and you are wrong, and apparently pretty upset about it too.  I have no idea why you lied in the first place and I still think it could be a good change for the lackluster burst weapon category.

 

This didn't add much to the thread, but at least we know the actual facts of how the weapon changed and what might be useful for it now, check his sources to see.