About Burst Weapons

[Volt_Cruelerz]

 

That angry damage control.

 

Well I've checked your sources and other people from the closed beta and I can see why you're getting so defensive, you got caught in a lie.

The Burston's burst used to be the only thing affected by RoF mods, but about to the same degree they are now.  Currently RoF mods affect both the burst and the refire.  That was the only change in this regard, they let it affect the refire too.

I suggested them having little to no effect on refire and a greatly increased effect on the burst itself.  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/84452-about-burst-weapons/#entry943354

The Burston never functioned that way and you are wrong, and apparently pretty upset about it too.  I have no idea why you lied in the first place and I still think it could be a good change for the lackluster burst weapon category.

 

This didn't add much to the thread, but at least we know the actual facts of how the weapon changed and what might be useful for it now, check his sources to see.

The duration of a burst was what used to be decreased by rate mods and it was later changed to have those mods affect the number of bursts per second.  This is what I've been saying the whole time and is what my sources say.  Tell me how I'm lying, please.  I'm very curious.

 

EDIT: if you're thinking I was claiming that the Burston used to be more accurate if you fired the shots closer together via mods, I'm afraid you're mistaken.  What I said was meant in reference to the idea of pushing the shots within the burst closer together with mods since it used to be the case that the shots being closer together when rate mods were applied was something that had been done which is why I've been arguing that this whole time because you keep calling me a liar and I assumed that's what you didn't believe.  Also, regarding the idea that it still pushes them together, I've never witnessed it (I have tested it with an app on my phone), but so many people insist upon it that I just keep my mouth shut and assume I merely measured it incorrectly.

 

EDIT 2: the first edit has been changed numerous times for clarity.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Ced23Ric]

I'm pretty sure "Volt_Cruelerz" is making things up, disregard them.

 

It seems to me that you are taking a factual discussion and are attempting to turn into a personal glory thing. Pipe down.

 

Not a single person I know from CB (I'm in a fairly big clan) ever heard of this, I think you're just trying to make up an excuse for the mechanics to stay the same because you like them. Just explain why you like them, don't make things up.

 

You are assuming and using an unquantified source as backup to those assumptions.

 

Been here since December '12, ID 1366, U5 Release, and the Burston had set delays between bursts and rate of fire mods only affected the burst itself. That mechanic reduced the TTK of the Burston by a tremendous bit, and was thusly abandoned, because while within a given three-round-frame, the Burston performed fine, its sustained DPS was abyssmal and nowhere near the automatic rifles.

During multiple iterations to buff the Burston, that has changed away from this initial inception.

[Webly]

It seems to me that you are taking a factual discussion and are attempting to turn into a personal glory thing. Pipe down.

 

 

You are assuming and using an unquantified source as backup to those assumptions.

 

Been here since December '12, ID 1366, U5 Release, and the Burston had set delays between bursts and rate of fire mods only affected the burst itself. That mechanic reduced the TTK of the Burston by a tremendous bit, and was thusly abandoned, because while within a given three-round-frame, the Burston performed fine, its sustained DPS was abyssmal and nowhere near the automatic rifles.

During multiple iterations to buff the Burston, that has changed away from this initial inception.

See "I suggested them having little to no effect on refire and a greatly increased effect on the burst itself." Then check the originally posted info against what he said, the Burston never functioned like I suggested but Volt said it did.  I said he lied.  He brought up a bunch of info that showed IT DIDN'T FUNCTION LIKE HOW I SUGGESTED, the Burston never had the ability to so greatly increase rof of the burst that recoil virtually had no effect on the rounds of that burst.  "So with a maxed Speed Trigger you could have the Burston fire all its rounds (per burst) into virtually the same spot from nearly sniper ranges." https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/84452-about-burst-weapons/#entry943354 

And I called him out on it.  The only glory thing here is Mr. Volt skewing the truth (to the detriment of this community idea effort) to support an incorrect claim.

 

I'll forgive you because you're german.

 

 

That angry damage control.

 

Well I've checked your sources and other people from the closed beta and I can see why you're getting so defensive, you got caught in a lie.

The Burston's burst used to be the only thing affected by RoF mods, but about to the same degree they are now.  Currently RoF mods affect both the burst and the refire.  That was the only change in this regard, they let it affect the refire too.

I suggested them having little to no effect on refire and a greatly increased effect on the burst itself.  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/84452-about-burst-weapons/#entry943354

The Burston never functioned that way and you are wrong, and apparently pretty upset about it too.  I have no idea why you lied in the first place and I still think it could be a good change for the lackluster burst weapon category.

 

This didn't add much to the thread, but at least we know the actual facts of how the weapon changed and what might be useful for it now, check his sources to see.

[Ced23Ric]

"I suggested them having little to no effect on refire and a greatly increased effect on the burst itself."

 

Which is how the Burston worked in U5 CBT. Only, no effect on refire at all. The delay was set.

 

Let's quote the entire thing, while we are at it.

 

I had an idea awhile back to make the RoF mods, Gunslinger and Speed trigger, affect the actual burst RoF, but not the the space between bursts so much.  So with a maxed Speed Trigger you could have the Burston fire all its rounds (per burst) into virtually the same spot from nearly sniper ranges.

 

First sentence describes how the Burston used to work, which was discarded, as it destroyed any shape of competitive sustained TTK  for the Burston. Second sentence is a modifier/qualifier of the previous sentence. Regardless of what the second sentence does to expand the first, a qualifier used in that way only elaborates on the statement of the first sentence. Volt's statement is correct in that way that your first sentence describes how the Burston used to work.

 

You are now moving goal posts, by hanging on to your qualifier, stating "this is totally not what I said", and you omitted that first sentence to avoid that portion of the discussion. It went downhill from there, to the point that you asked for moderator interference. That is now happening, and after reviewing the entire case, I am telling you to pipe down. You are correct in so far as that your qualifier is not how the Burston worked. But that has never been "the argument". You are, nevertheless, absolutely incorrect in calling Volt a liar, as your base statement is an almost exact description of the design approach the Burston had, which was canned due to its massive shortcomings.

Drop it. Move on.

And please don't attempt to buddy-buddy with me. It doesn't change my perception or shifts things in your favour.

[PaperAlien]

Recoil on the burst weapons is very predictable.  Slide your mouse down to get three headshots or just be lazy and aim at the chest and  let it walk up and hit them in the head.

Just because it can be avoided (and it isn't exactly easy), doesn't mean it isn't still stupid. If I was using a Braton, I would achieve similar accuracy without any flicking.

[Webly]

Which is how the Burston worked in U5 CBT. Only, no effect on refire at all. The delay was set.

 

Let's quote the entire thing, while we are at it.

 

 

First sentence describes how the Burston used to work, which was discarded, as it destroyed any shape of competitive sustained TTK  for the Burston. Second sentence is a modifier/qualifier of the previous sentence. Regardless of what the second sentence does to expand the first, a qualifier used in that way only elaborates on the statement of the first sentence. Volt's statement is correct in that way that your first sentence describes how the Burston used to work.

 

You are now moving goal posts, by hanging on to your qualifier, stating "this is totally not what I said", and you omitted that first sentence to avoid that portion of the discussion. It went downhill from there, to the point that you asked for moderator interference. That is now happening, and after reviewing the entire case, I am telling you to pipe down. You are correct in so far as that your qualifier is not how the Burston worked. But that has never been "the argument". You are, nevertheless, absolutely incorrect in calling Volt a liar, as your base statement is an almost exact description of the design approach the Burston had, which was canned due to its massive shortcomings.

Drop it. Move on.

And please don't attempt to buddy-buddy with me. It doesn't change my perception or shifts things in your favour.

Are you really saying because my first sentence didn't say it, the second sentence of the same post is invalid?

Are you Mr. Volt-here's alt?  Serious question, he seems to have logged out right as you logged on.

 

[Ced23Ric]

Are you really saying because my first sentence didn't say it, the second sentence of the same post is invalid?

Are you Mr. Volt-here's alt?  Serious question, he seems to have logged out right as you logged on.

 

I am not going to repeat myself. I voiced myself pretty clearly. You misinterpretations of that are your own prerogative, but don't change the explicit instruction to leave it be. Move on.

[Vanadio]

TL:DR

 

We all more or less love Burston and we all would like to play it, but it simply doesn't work, sorry.

 

DE, you can increase its DPS as much as you want, but burst=accuracy, not damage.

 

I ask you DE have youever used Braton in manual burst mode? Ok, that's accuracy.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Just because it can be avoided (and it isn't exactly easy), doesn't mean it isn't still stupid. If I was using a Braton, I would achieve similar accuracy without any flicking.

True, the Braton is accurate more easily, but as I've said before, the Burston has a much lower TTK so long as it can kill in one burst which it can if you flick.

 

And I've also said I'd be fine with a new gun that had delayed recoil.  Give it exactly the same stats except for a fire rate of 4.2, make the delay between bullets in the burst 10 ms instead of 30, and have recoil delayed until the end.  Wouldn't a second weapon make everyone happy?  Heck, we could go further.  Make the Burston mastery-locked at rank 3 or so, make the new one purchasable with credits, and add a line of flavor text to it "while despised by many Tenno, this Grineer weapon is adored by others."

 

Right now, the Burston has a very usable mechanic.  It's not a mechanic that is widely enjoyed, but the mechanic serves the users well that do like it.  What you guys seem to be asking for is a new mechanic.  Since we're not exactly having a weapon shortage when it comes to development, why not just add a new one that has the mechanic you're asking for?

Edited July 26, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Dipstick]

Just because it can be avoided (and it isn't exactly easy), doesn't mean it isn't still stupid. If I was using a Braton, I would achieve similar accuracy without any flicking.

+1 all day. I do have to say that this is much less an issue now that they increased the damage due to the fact that It made the burston more of a heavy hitter instead of a gimped gun.

 

 

True, the Braton is accurate more easily, but as I've said before, the Burston has a much lower TTK so long as it can kill in one burst which it can if you flick.

 

And I've also said I'd be fine with a new gun that had delayed recoil.  Give it exactly the same stats except for a fire rate of 4.2, make the delay between bullets in the burst 10 ms instead of 30, and have recoil delayed until the end.  Wouldn't a second weapon make everyone happy?  Heck, we could go further.  Make the Burston mastery-locked at rank 3 or so, make the new one purchasable with credits, and add a line of flavor text to it "while despised by many Tenno, this Grineer weapon is adored by others."

 

Right now, the Burston has a very usable mechanic.  It's not a mechanic that is widely enjoyed, but the mechanic serves the users well that do like it.  What you guys seem to be asking for is a new mechanic.  Since we're not exactly having a weapon shortage when it comes to development, why not just add a new one that has the mechanic you're asking for?

I have one question for you Mr.Volt. I seriously mean no hostility from this and I am asking purely from a curiosity point of view...

 

Do you play a lot of shooter games? Do you have a varied history of shooters?

 

The reason why I is that I believe that I myself have a varied history of shooters, and this flick thing that you keep saying is key is driving me crazy.

 

 

TL;DR - Burston is dope, DE please fix the fps issue

[Volt_Cruelerz]

+1 all day. I do have to say that this is much less an issue now that they increased the damage due to the fact that It made the burston more of a heavy hitter instead of a gimped gun.

 

 

I have one question for you Mr.Volt. I seriously mean no hostility from this and I am asking purely from a curiosity point of view...

 

Do you play a lot of shooter games? Do you have a varied history of shooters?

 

The reason why I is that I believe that I myself have a varied history of shooters, and this flick thing that you keep saying is key is driving me crazy.

 

 

TL;DR - Burston is dope, DE please fix the fps issue

A decent amount. I'm a developer for a game similar to tribes, so perhaps that's why I don't mind doing little things like that.

[gell]

So, you want burst weapons to have pinpoint accuracy and no recoil until after the burst. In other words, you want them to behave 100% like a semi-automatic with higher damage and ammo consumption. No.

 

That's not what the OP said, nor is that how burst fire weapons tend to work. It needs to have higher damage per bullet, but not necessarily higher DPS. The OP got it right, in terms of how burst fire weapons normally work. I'm not saying WF needs to mimic real life or other games, but his point is still valid.

 

Just take the Braton as the example of an automatic rifle. Think of its accuracy, damage, etc. The burst fire version of this gun would limit recoil and inaccuracy by burst firing only 3-4 bullets. In essence it would do less damage since it's a Braton that is not shooting as fast, but the upside is that it's overall more accurate. But this is more of a real world example of why you'd use burst fire, not a game reason.

 

So the game reasoning is to have a gun be more accurate (like burst fire is supposed to), but also have higher damage per bullet, in order to keep the weapon even remotely competitive to the Braton, an easy to spray weapon that is actually pretty accurate. This doesn't mean it's all around better then, because its regular DPS is still comparable, or slightly lower, than the Braton, but with higher accuracy, you might be able to hit more crit locations.

 

But this is not how the Burston works because it has a large amount of recoil. It's not as terrible as the Kraken, but it still has really high recoil, making its DPS really low, and not even good for "accuracy" when only the first bullet (or last bullet) hits. Yeah, you can do some things like dragging the mouse down, but then since the game auto corrects your sight back to its normal position, you end up having to uncorrect the sight back to a proper level, so it's not a great solution. The whole shooting upwards in a line is silly, because anyone trained to shoot a gun is also trained to fight the recoil, something that is apparent when you use burst fire in the real world. If you try to correct that with the mouse, since it auto moves your sights back to the "home" position, that makes the game inconsistent. Why would you not correct the recoil for us, but only correct the returning to home? If you do one, you should do the other.

[gell]

A decent amount. I'm a developer for a game similar to tribes, so perhaps that's why I don't mind doing little things like that.

 

Btw, in regards to my last post that mentioned correcting the recoil by dragging your mouse, it was inspired by your post about it. I hate it in Planetside 2, and I hate it here. It doesn't really make sense to have one end of the recoil player-dependent, and then have the other end of it be controlled by the game. There are some other games that don't correct any of the recoil, and those games felt better to me (an example escapes me currently). The recoil sends the gun upward, the player corrects it by pulling the mouse down, and that's where the cursor ends up. Perfect. In Warframe, Planetside 2, and some other games, the recoil goes up, the player corrects it by pulling down, and then the player is now looking at the ground. What the heck.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Btw, in regards to my last post that mentioned correcting the recoil by dragging your mouse, it was inspired by your post about it. I hate it in Planetside 2, and I hate it here. It doesn't really make sense to have one end of the recoil player-dependent, and then have the other end of it be controlled by the game. There are some other games that don't correct any of the recoil, and those games felt better to me (an example escapes me currently). The recoil sends the gun upward, the player corrects it by pulling the mouse down, and that's where the cursor ends up. Perfect. In Warframe, Planetside 2, and some other games, the recoil goes up, the player corrects it by pulling down, and then the player is now looking at the ground. What the heck.

Actually, I'd like that.  It'd make full-auto weapons more of a hassle because you'd have to be constantly pulling them down, but still.

[Ced23Ric]

There are three ways of handling recoil in weapons.

 

Bracing - the operator braces the weapon against himself (stance, shoulder and stock, clenched arms, crossgrip...) or into some sort of mount, such as vehicles or bipods, walls or even a sling pulled tightly.

 

Recoil dampeners - such as in the AN94 Akaban (2rnd burst 5.45mm), the TDI Kriss Super V (3rnd burst .45 ACP - to an extent with a laterally moving counterweight to "shift" recoil) or the H&K G11 (3rnd burst 4.7mm caseless), where the recoil hits or is altered after the burst is fired through counterweights moving inside the gun.

 

Countermotion - the most common thing, the operator counters recoil by pushing against it. Gun goes up, shooter pushes down. In sustained fire scenarios, that can become quite the chore.

 

Videogames usually replicate the third, then the third, because those don't require as much individual coding on the physics engine. In case of the Burston, we could see RoF mods apply to the entire sustained cycle (burst speed & delays between bursts) with an addition of the second approach to recoil. If the Burston would rapidly fire three rounds, then climb requiring readjustment, and then refire, the fire rate would improve the DPS/TTK, while also making the gun harder ton control, which brings skill into the equation.

[Saenol]

Actually, I'd like that.  It'd make full-auto weapons more of a hassle because you'd have to be constantly pulling them down, but still.

 

Some weapons in Warframe already require this. Countering the vertical climb on the Gorgon is a key example.

 

Do you play a lot of shooter games? Do you have a varied history of shooters?

 

The reason why I is that I believe that I myself have a varied history of shooters, and this flick thing that you keep saying is key is driving me crazy.

 

Personally, I've been playing shooters since at least the original Wolfenstein 3D (1992) and I don't have a big problem with it.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Saenol