Enemy Variety, Or The Lack Of It.

[Psychotoxin]

Before anyone goes on to yell at me for making a repost:
I KNOW EVERYONE HAS SEEN A TOPIC TOUCHING ON THIS, OR BEING DEVOTED TO IT, AND MOST LIKELY AT LEAST READ THE FIRST 2 SENTENCES OF IT, BUT I THINK WE CAN`T STRESS THIS ENOUGH, SO A REPOST IS EXCUSED.

======================================
No TL;DR here, you lazy &#!. go and read it!
======================================

And i`d like everyone to remember that this is a post about ideas, so EVERYTHING is valid. unless you`re a total &#! to everyone. i`ll just not read any ideas from douchebags.
Now. On with the show. This Thread will be all about adding ideas, about enemies (and possibly even lore for said enemies) to the game. because i`m tired of mowing down a sea of same-faced, same-skilled guys, that have a different colored armor and a different gun.

I will be tossing my ideas out, which include new enemies, and possible reworks of old ones.
This post will include:
A) the appearance of the enemy B) it`s abilities C) it`s equipment D) it`s behavior and E) explanation.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Let`s start with the Grineer:

a rework for Grineer Commander:

A) the appearance can stay the same

B) could maybe add a rallying shout, that calls nearby grineer to him, and for gods sake, make his switch teleport only a LoS skill, not just a "there`s a dude behind that box. now i`m behind that box"

C) as the commander is teleporting around, i believe he should have a small gun. maybe a viper, or dual vipers.

D) got to fix that annoying thing where, even if you`re 1v1 with him, he`ll shamelessly use his switch teleport on you, like it`s the last day on teleport sales, and he`s getting the last of it. He`s a commander and ergo he should lead the attack, and use switch teleport to toss you into other grineer (they already do this, but kinda horribly, since sometimes the grineer just turn their backs and run for cover),and make him less of a coward.

E) he`s a commander in a militaristic clone army. I thought the grineer gained influence by sheer strength, intimidation, and stupid bravery, but all of this dissipates, when the commander switches places with me across the whole room, and then runs just further away. that is barely a commander. that is just a chicken in a fancy suit, with some nice skills.

---------------------------------------------------------
a rework of Grineer Ballista:

A) Make them less outstanding. they are snipers, so they should be hard to spot, so they could do their jobs right.

B) snipin`s good, and they really don`t have any other skill, besides loudly yelling their current action, and giving away their position.

C) Could give the sniper a small side-arm to switch to, if the target is too close. Kraken, Viper, or something similar.

D) First and foremost - snipers are cold-blooded killers, that can keep their cool even in the hottest of situations. what i`d like to hear from snipers is a gunshot and a bullet whizzing past my head, not "Tenno in my sights" yelled so loud that my teammates 2 rooms behind me can hear that. and secondly - movement. right now the snipers move a lot, and shoot a little. swap this around, and that should make them better. though i guess the movement is kinda logical, to not give away their position, with a second shot, but make them either squat-walk their way around, or make them move via the least visible route.

E) A sniper is a silent "one shot - one kill" beast. guess the grineer tech and cloning facilities forgot to ingrain that into these snipers.

------------------------------------------------------
a new troop - Grineer Acrobat:

A) could look like the melee units, since it generally is a melee unit. could be a female. like scorpion, but without the rope.

B) wall running, slide flips, flying dragon kicks. make this guy as mobile as possible. maybe a make him/her an unmodded loki as far as speed goes. could give him/her the ability to choke-hold a tenno, if it has a chance to get up from behind. the tenno should be able to break free by mashing either "e" or "x".
C) a nice, decent melee weapon. maybe the dual clever (what is it with enemies, not bringing dual weaps to battle)

D) flanking, flushing out of cover, chasing down, and not letting up. the idea of this guy, is to keep you on your feet, and checking all your sides. and being on constant guard.

E) the grineer are a race of clones, with bio-mechanical implants, right? there should be one geared for speed and mobility. one that is not a bouncy sphere.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next - our dear little bureaucrats, merchants and general douchebags - the Corpus:

Standard Moa rework:

A) looks are fine

B) skills are fine

C) give it a BFG 9000!!!! JK, equippement is just fine (what else do you want to strap on a proxy?)

D) Rework the god-damn stupid bullS#&$ AI of running straight up to me, and then past me, then standing there for 5 seconds, and dying, or maybe managing 2-3 shots and then dying (i`m aware that on higher levels they still turn you into plasma flavored mincemeat, if you do not move away). these are proxies built for speed and mobility. they should strafe around and shoot short barrages at you, while still moving.

E) corpus can make a machinegun and rocketlauncher wielding mechanical dogs and birds, but can`t make circuitry that allows for 2 different tasks (move+shoot) at the same time?

-----------------------------------------------
Sniper Crewman rework:

A) a different colored jacket maybe? not that important though.

b) skills are fine

C) as well as with the ballista, should have a small side-arm if the target gets too close. maybe even give them a variation of the Spectra.

D) sniper crewmen should set up ambushes, once a ship-wide/outpost-wide alarm is triggered. imagine this - you go into an empty canyon on the corpus outpost, and suddenly 5-6 snipers ambush you from the mountains. would be pretty epic, imho. this would require a rework of the mountains in the corpus outpost, so they could get there by foot, not by mystical RNG-portation.

E) and corpus apparently didn`t teach their snipers the difference between the Lanka and the Dera. one`s an assault plasma rifle, the other is a sniper plasma rifle. sniiiiiper. sni-per... why is it so hard for snipers to keep on sniping, not just run up to your face?

------------------------------------------------------------
new troop - Corpus Apparition:

A) i`m imagining this in 2 ways:
1) it`s a female corpus unit (we have seen none of them, or maybe they all are wearing the same bags, that the crewmen are)
2) something similar to a moa, but not really. maybe an anthropomorphic proxy.

B) if the alarm is triggered it`s nearly invisible (Killing floor stalker style), and you can see a faint shimmer when it`s nearby. if not, it just looks normal, without the shimmer, and opaque, not transparent.

C) something stabby or slice-y

D) moves around silently, taking advantage of it`s cloak, but it can still be damaged by a stray bullet or AoE damage. if it is discovered, before it`s close enough for melee, it charges the closest player, and starts meleeing him. if not discovered, will try to sneak up behind the player, and choke-grab him, while repeatedly stabbing the player, until it breaks free, or is incapacitated. payer can fight out of the choke-grab by repeatedly mashing either "x" or "e".
if an alarm is not triggered, it`ll patrol around normally, but at hearing a gunshot it`ll become invisible.

E) changing the vibration frequency of the energy shield, causes it to vibrate so rapidly that it blurs the image, making it just a faint shimmer. and since we are using energy shields, and corpus are the leading tech-makers: why shouldn`t they be able to do that? in any case, a move like this would render the shield nearly unusable for standard bullet protection, since most of it`s energy would be used in making the vibrations.

------------------------------------------------
new troop - Blur osprey:

A) similar to other ospreys. maybe red?

B) flies around like a shield osprey, but instead of granting shields to the nearby allies, it slightly diffuses their image making them harder to hit, but also slowing them down a bit.

C) diffusion ray, what else should be there?

D) shield osprey behavior, without the annoying "fly up to your face, turn around, get shot" part. what is it with shield ospreys coming in close to the tenno? does it want a hug? is it taking a picture?

E) as mentioned before - energy shield frequency change. but this osprey generates a shield that already is vibrating at that approximate frequency. since it`s not a full blur-out, it still gives a bit more protection than the Apparition`s shield.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go give that big, green one a hug! - it`s the infested:

Charger rework:

A) fine

B) remove the &#! annoying stagger. infested as is are horrible staggerers. almost every infested causes a stagger, and most of them even knockdowns.

C) N/A

D) for what`s it supposed to do, the charger`s behavior is rather well made, imho.

E) fast movement, fast attack, travels in large groups, stagger-city - population: you. why not just make them toxic, and disruptors for the full package?

---------------------------------------
Leaper rework:

A) fine

B) instead of knockdown, it could leap on you and put you in a choke-grab, where you can either take damage from him, but use your secondary to an extent, or you could break out? seems a bit more player-friendly to give them more options than just watch as you`re pummeled while on the ground, then pummeled, while getting up, and then entering stagger-city.

C) N/A

D) everything here is fine, since they do pounce on you from a decent distance, and if you`re occupied with a pack of chargers, that is everything the leaper needs.

E) not really much to explain, besides the fact, that it would make the infested a bit more payer friendly, while also giving him a reason to fear the leapers (imagine the choke-grab in a xini run)

--------------------------------------------------------
new troop - infested nodes:

A) looks like a mass of infested tissue, with some grineer bits, some corpus bits, and maybe even a control console sticking out of it

B) multiple nodes per mission. acts like a small scale alarm for the infested. if you alarm it, you must destroy it, unless countless infested will continue flooding you. once you kill it, all that you have to take care of, is the infested in your immediate vicinity. has a lot of HP, but no attacks or anything. it`s only "attack" is calling in infested to it`s location.

C) N/A

D) probably activates if you kill a set amount of infested in one of the rooms that it controls, or activates if you pass nearby it.

E) the Infested are a hive-mind like virus. and hive-minds should have nodes, that would be like the local hub for the nearby infected.


=============================================================================================


I know that what i proposed for the Charger was a weak cry of nerf this please, but the infested do have enough stagger attacks. and actually i don`t mind the ancient disrupters, no matter how balls annoying and frustrating they can get.

i`ll be checking this post at least once a day and updating with any new ideas of enemy variety, and give credit where it`s due of course. so i ask of you to keep your ramblings to a minimum, your feedback brief, and your ideas clear.

EDIT: Good ideas for the grineer commanders from Aizeol and Madotsuki.
Aizeol proposed to give them Rhino`s Roar, so they`d buff their team mates
Madetsuki proposed that they do actual commanding, and nearby troops would react to their "Throw grenades!" call out. And their Switch teleport being a one time only and have a LoS requirement.

TheOneThatKNEW said that snipers should fade when not moving and keep their mouth shut. liking the idea of an active camouflage. and this as well:

Another idea I've been thinking about is a ranged Infested unit. It could be a light unit that shoots spines or a heavy unit that spits globs of poison while crawling along walls and ceilings, and could actively avoid Tenno if one gets too close. A nice change of pace from just having a bunch of melee units rush up and stagger-lock you I would think.

TheLostReverend proposed a sniper Osprey. Interesting, but with the current osprey dodginess and their small hitbox, I think it could become annoying. Idea inofitself is a good one. Maybe they could be bigger than other ospreys. Like - drone size. Maybe limited to Corpus outpost missions.

Good ideas by Paradoxbomb: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/84578-enemy-variety-or-the-lack-of-it/#entry929203

Edited July 23, 2013 by Psychotoxin

[Winterbraid]

I like most of the stuff, EXCEPT pressing E repeatedly to get out of enemy grabs. Quick-time events are so yesterday.

 

Instead, how about making use of a mechanic that's already there: Roll to free yourself of the enemy choke (like you do to get rid of Corpus Leeches). Would still require a degree of thought and break up the gameplay for a second, but wouldn't feel as artificial as a QTE.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

IMO Grineer Commander should get rid of the teleport, have a better rifle and buff his marines. Because they are Commanders, not Chrono-legionnaries. Wouldn't mind Swich Teleport for another new unit though.

Edited July 22, 2013 by 3XT3RM1NATUS

[Psychotoxin]

I like most of the stuff, EXCEPT pressing E repeatedly to get out of enemy grabs. Quick-time events are so yesterday.

 

Instead, how about making use of a mechanic that's already there: Roll to free yourself of the enemy choke (like you do to get rid of Corpus Leeches). Would still require a degree of thought and break up the gameplay for a second, but wouldn't feel as artificial as a QTE.

well yeah... i had my doubts about the button mashing, but it was the first thing that came to my mind, and it`s still better than plain knockdown, imho...

[Aizeol]

Why not instead of the Grineer Commander having Switch Teleport he should have Rhino's Roar. He would buff his troops' damage and fire-rate. Just a thought.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Your ideas are pretty awful, taking control away from the players is a bad idea when DE does it and they're even worse when people try to suggest "better" ideas that consist of nothing but more of the same. If you can't think of anything but "GUY GRABS YOU AND NOW YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING" then enemy suggestions aren't your thing.

[TheOneThatKNEW]

I agree with your input about sniper-oriented enemies in this game; they don't act like snipers at all. A nice addition I'd like to add to that is unit transparency. While a Ballista or Sniper Crewman isn't moving, their models become mostly transparent, just enough to where you'd have to take a second glance to see them. Also, their pointlessly loud callouts could be disabled while they're transparent.

 

Another idea I've been thinking about is a ranged Infested unit. It could be a light unit that shoots spines or a heavy unit that spits globs of poison while crawling along walls and ceilings, and could actively avoid Tenno if one gets too close. A nice change of pace from just having a bunch of melee units rush up and stagger-lock you I would think.

[Madotsuki]

I want to see Grineer Commanders actually giving commands for a change instead of just being a spongier Lancer with teleport spam. For example, they could do what Nomads do in Borderlands 2, shouting commands to surrounding troops such as "THROW GRENADES!" to make all the Lancers and Troopers lob their nades at you in unison, or "CHARGE!" to make everyone bumrush you in an attempt to flush you out of cover. They can also make enemies negate certain skills while a Commander is present like ignoring a decoy. That would make them more "commander-like" and also make them a priority target to take down.

Their Switch Teleport should instead be changed to a line-of-sight skill that they can only use once.

[Psychotoxin]

Your ideas are pretty awful, taking control away from the players is a bad idea when DE does it and they're even worse when people try to suggest "better" ideas that consist of nothing but more of the same. If you can't think of anything but "GUY GRABS YOU AND NOW YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING" then enemy suggestions aren't your thing.

 

 you probably don`t read to well... you can break free from the grab, and you can still use your side-arm (albeit with less accuracy, and you still take damage from the struggle), and after you break free, the opponent is staggered, leaving him opened. where is your loss of control? all you`re stripped of during the grab, is movement options.

now tell me. would you rather see 5-10 seconds of static animation of you getting up, or fight to escape the grasp of your enemy? because i for one would give anything to get rid of the annoying knockdown (though DE might leave it on some of the enemies, like the disruptors)

[TheLostReverend]

What about a sniper Osprey? Similar to the Tau Sniper Drone from the 40k Universe.

[Psychotoxin]

What about a sniper Osprey? Similar to the Tau Sniper Drone from the 40k Universe.

 

 Never was a fan of the Tau empire. and i think they were the only ones, that forced me to change my tactics in 40k Dark Crusade.

[Paradoxbomb]

I think the issue (particularly with Grineer) is that there's not really any good "mid-tier" enemies. The ones that do exist (Seekers, Ballistas, Powerfists) are either weak as hell or don't do their job well at all (or are just glitchy as hell). These guys really need to be buffed in terms of health and AI:

 

Combine the Seeker and Ballista. Presently, Ballistas seems to operate by the same logic as any standard troop, when they should be trying to stay as FAR AWAY from the player as possible. The Seekers are actually better snipers than they are, but those guys are just useless at present. I say give the Ballistas the Seeker's high armor rating and ability to deploy latchers. Now you actually have a decent threat on your hands, a sniper that is very hard to kill due to her armor, and dispatches grenades to force you out of hiding. I'd even say they should make her sniper attacks ignore shields, to compensate for her slow fire rate.

 

Make Elite Lancers elite. Instead of just turning all level 20+ Grineers into level 20+ Grineers but with a burst gun, I say make them significantly stronger than normal Lancers, but throw them into groups of standard Lancers so you get about 2-4 in a mob. Make them a little braver and more willing to charge your position, and maybe a little more grenade happy. So players have to choose between taking out the heavier guys first, or picking off the fodder Lancers.
 

Make Shield Lancers more Defensive. If you get within 20 meters of these guys, they go Leroy Jenkins on you. It's not a bad strategy, but why is the guy who's supposed to be defensive braver than the rest of the Grineer troops. This guy needs to do his job right and actively stick by and shield his allies, prioritizing heavy Grineers, making them much more difficult targets. They could still charge, but only when you're really close, and they should immediately fall back afterward.

 

Change the Grineer Commanders. There's nothing really Commandy about them, and then there's that infamous switch teleport of his. Commanders need to be more inclined to stay by there troops, and should be able to bark orders to their cowardly troops to organize them into a working threat. In additon, they should be able to buff troops that are next to them and boost their weapon's damage output, putting stress on taking them out quickly. In place of the ever annoying switch tele, I say give them a pull ability, so they can still force you into the middle of a crowd of enemies without leaving the group himself (this pull should also be easy to notice and dodgable with a roll). Alternatively, give him the ability to deploy multiple decoys to disorient players.

 

Make heavy units more frequent, at least late game, heavy units can break up the monotony of fighting the same 30+ Lancers every tile, but you rarely see the poor guys (well, except heavy gunners, they're actually quite liberal with those). It'd be nice to see them be more than bullet sponges too, perhaps give them the ability to buff troops with elemental damage (ex. Napalms add fire damage to Lancers' attacks) and add some weaknessess/stages to the fights with them, so that they actually feel like minibosses.

 

Grineer Powerfists... Poor bastards never stood a chance. Remove or speed these guys up.

 

Possible New enemy, Grineer Crutch: A grineer medic that, while weak on his own, can deploy bubble shields that block bullets and recharge enemy health and shields. Perhaps most dangerous of all is that the Crutch can grant invulnerability to enemies in very close proximity to him, meaning he must be killed as soon as possible. The shield generators he deploys are also destroyable, though this will require you to charge the enemy's position.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Paradoxbomb