Feedback: Cash Shop, the state of F2P in Warframe, the future.

[Rivy]

I agree with every single point in the OP ! +1

Especially with players needing goals :3

[djjdiss]

Well bless Ced's lil heart he's just burning the midnight oil trying to crank this game around 180 degrees!

Hey buddy thought I would drop a line and say thanks for the input. Always nice to have a fellow reporter that makes thorough succinct posts about this and that while throwing some what if's in there like it was going out of style.

Just wanted to mention I have a nice lil post that goes over some great things in regards to player progression ( surprised you didnt grace me with your presence on the topic) as well as some roadblocks that F2P players encounter and some of the rather unique ideas our community has come up with all in the nice little post.

I'll admit it's been a minute since i updated it but hey, guys gotta play him some warframes.

Anydoos check it out here

Would love to get some feedback from yas

[LtNibbler]

Great points Ced, especially strikes a chord with me regarding the slot system and plat only items.

It's a huge pet peeve of mine having to buy slots for my gear, in any game. It just doesn't feel right. I'm much more likely to spend money if it's a time trade-off, and left to my own choice (or money availability), rather than being a prerequesite to buy/expand/upgrade my gear. It takes the player's control away, I think. For instance, I have 40 pages full of stuff in my inventory - yes, I may have a hoarding problem... LOL But hey, I don't have to sell any of it if I don't want to. :D

Edited February 7, 2013 by LtNibbler

[Rynax]

I agree with mister Ced23Ric, but I have one addition...

---@(GREATSWORDS)

btw, I wonder how many +1s he would have if we tallied them all up... Someone! Get on it!

+1

[stardust8ball]

If I learned anything from Tribes:Ascend it was that the pay-model which a F2P game uses will either make or break the game. And like T:A, this game suffers from the Pay2GrindLess approach to F2P gaming. Unless the grinding is extremely short to unlock content, having to spend 100s of hours in a game just to play each class is incredibly offputting, especially since you don't know if you'll enjoy a class until you actually play it. So there are times where you could grind out a certain class/warframe and find out after a few minutes of playing that you really don't enjoy the playstyle. This is a huge disincentive to play the game because you have to grind out a whole new class just to potentially be let down again.

Free2Play, Pay2Pimp is the best model for longetivity. From games like Dota and LoL you can see how much players are willing to spend to make their experience unique. All or most content unlocked from the get go, with just cosmetics and any other non-gameplay-related options locked to currency.

I'd even take a one-time fee (like purchasing a game) to unlock all the frames and slots if the model won't change from the way it is.

[Davante]

Great points Ced, especially strikes a chord with me regarding the slot system and plat only items.

It's a huge pet peeve of mine having to buy slots for my gear, in any game. It just doesn't feel right. I'm much more likely to spend money if it's a time trade-off, and left to my own choice (or money availability), rather than being a prerequesite to buy/expand/upgrade my gear. It takes the player's control away, I think. For instance, I have 40 pages full of stuff in my inventory - yes, I may have a hoarding problem... LOL But hey, I don't have to sell any of it if I don't want to. :D

This is standard in nearly every F2P game. Paying to expand storage is pretty standard fare. The only difference is that in Subscription MMO's they make you pay gold.

One note I have to say is that I am baffled by Founder-less players buying plat. The plat you receive from Founder levels is a better rate than the one received from buying plat straight.

[NinaV]

A good thread with lots of good points I think and a very good post by the OP.

When I look at how much things cost in a game do I imagine the ordinary price for games and check if the play for free offer something similar for the same price-tag. Not exactly scientific or very accurate, but it helps making an impression if this design is too greedy (and for me to not wish to support it), or generous in a way that encourages the player.

It is right that making an inbetween currency (like Platinum in this case) is a rather simple trick to fool the customer, but it can also be convenient when a company got to handle different currencies. It is also a way to milk certain regions more than others, for social (un-)reasons, or because the regional difference in income and buying power. For example do Europe tend to have higher cost for in-game currencies/subscriptions than say USA, but Europe probably have higher geographical income variations in the same kinds of jobs, especially the low-paid ones, while USA got more social and economic differences in the same areas typically. I don't know how much thought is put into it, but it certainly matter in marketing for the bigger firms (EA, Steam, Blizzard and so on).

I still find it being bit weak to do this, so I am currently happy that Warframe base their in-game currencies on one physical world currency.

Still it looks bit expensive euro per product wise in Warframe, but at the same time perhaps I should consider that the euro per product also have to pay for those not buying anything? I am uncertain what is a fair and good way to measure that and people might have some good ideas how this should be percieved?

I agree that it is a negative incentive to have to pay to get "boring" things like the various reactors, but I agree on the slot-design (above a more reasonable level, especially on weapons since weapons take shorter time to level up than warframes).

[BramBlackmon]

I feel like the slots issue could find a happy medium by allowing F2p players 6 warframe slots, and giving slots bought with platinum a minor boost to credit and affinity gain. If the slots just become naturally unlocked as you progress the only reason to buy a slot becomes for the sake of unlocking everything very quickly. while cash shop users will spend great amounts of money on the game, they won't do it all at once, most people will spread it out over their play time, so if we go with a ranks unlocked by slots system, most people will have no reason to ever buy slots.

and not a lot of F2P players are going to stick with the game long enough to need more than 6. The time it takes to find the blueprints and materials and level up 6 warframes seems to be pretty lengthy from what I've noticed. If someone sticks with the game long enough to need more than 6 to keep all of their Warframes, I don't really see why they would have a problem with putting down a little bit of money to get those slots. And as I said before, If the new slots are given a minor boost to affinity and credit gains, even if someone has slots available, they have an incentivized reason to buy the premium slots.

Weapon storage on the other hand, should Either go to the same unlimited style as Mods, or be tied into the Ranking system. Some people like having a weapon custom tailored to every situation, some people are going to get by just fine with weapons capable of multi tasking. But at the current moment, there's no real reason to have guns for specific situations, it's simply a luxury, and when most people are pressed to shelling out 2 dollars each time they want two more weapon slots, they're quickly going to learn the joys of having multitaskers in their arsenal.

The Simplest way of putting this, is that Warframes are like Classes, and weapons are items you collect for fun and profit. Similiar to games like borderlands and diablo, where the fun lies not in playing the missions, but trying to find new and rarer loot to improve your character with. This game is obviously pulling some of it's inspiration from Loot crawlers, why do major damage to a key component of this type of game?

The Orokin system, is a mess though. In other cash shop fueled games, Orokin Catalysts and Orokin reactors would act as protection when you try to upgrade your equipment with materials you find in game. not as the means to upgrading the items themselves.

Under the current system, once I reached the 15 level limit for one of my WarFrame Classes, I'd have to pay 2 dollars to unlock the class fully. Then I have to repeat the process every time I want to maximize a new frame. So now I'm encouraged to, rather than play around with the different available Frames, pick one and stick with it for as long as possible until I get bored and quit, or get bored and cave in to pressure to buy. Usually the first one. And having to do it for weapons, Which unless the game intends for everything that is currently available to be the absolute best of what will ever be available, Is just a middle finger. Especially considering that these items aren't returned when a weapon is sold, or when a weapon gets consumed in the forge to create a new one.

And even if It's a minor expense now, as more and more frames are put out, I'm having to spend more money, just to unlock minor pieces of content. This is the selling model of just about every game on facebook, and it's the reason why a lot of companies that make facebook games are filing for bankrupcy.

Here's a better way of dealing with the two items, you don't have to stop selling them, you just have to change their usage. Mods have ranks, so lets say past a certain rank, a mod has a chance of failure. and let's say a certain rank above that, a mod has a chance of lowering the level of the weapon or WarFrame. Now The Orokin items have a purpose that's useful. One of them can have an effect along the lines of "prevents any negative effects from mod attachment failure" and it goes for less in Platinum than it's counter part, which would "gauruntees success of mod attachment"

There's a pretty workable skinner box, it relies on the high of gambling, the desire for a safety net, and the desire for convience, and it doesn't harm the F2P players in the least bit. Which is ultimately the balance that needs to be struck with cash shop items. Good Incentive to want to pay for convience, but having the effort over cash route still be a viable option.

[Cawkslapjones]

I've been whining about the alert system and frame/weapon slots so frequently I'm sure there's nothing new for me to add. I'll just say that I agree with most of what's said here, and that if there is no change, and soon... even these gorgeous graphics won't be enough to keep and maintain a healthy population.

[Sofiel]

I just had to sell Trinity to actually be able to play my Nyx. For the record I spent my free 50 platinum on extra slots and it's still not enough. I don't have an income so I can't pay the tiny price more slots would cost, but honestly I'm kind of disappointed that I would need to.

I really feel like the slots limit how much you can do, I'm not saying everyone needs infinite slots, I'm just saying that if you're anything like me you don't want to get rid of something you worked hard to rank up. Not to just go through the same song and dance with something else. At this point if I keep having to sell things just to get new stuff I don't see a point in playing much until it's fixed. What am I supposed to do when all of my stuff is rank 30? Sell it and get new stuff...but I don't want to...and yet there's no way to advance without doing so.

Or even anything to do. Think about it. What do people do with their gear at 30. They go farm parts for new items and such right? But if all my slots are full why should I bother?

If all my slots have catalysts/reactors just from farming the entire time. Why bother with staying on for alerts.

You see where I'm going with this? It ends with players leaving because there's nothing to do. More slots would at least keep players like me (Who want to keep their hard earned ranks) a bit more playtime while "endgame" content is discussed and worked on.

(P.S. Please don't let that "endgame" content be PVP. I don't play games for their PVP, I like PVE.)

[Mak_Gohae]

I just had to sell Trinity to actually be able to play my Nyx. For the record I spent my free 50 platinum on extra slots and it's still not enough. I don't have an income so I can't pay the tiny price more slots would cost, but honestly I'm kind of disappointed that I would need to.

I really feel like the slots limit how much you can do, I'm not saying everyone needs infinite slots, I'm just saying that if you're anything like me you don't want to get rid of something you worked hard to rank up. Not to just go through the same song and dance with something else. At this point if I keep having to sell things just to get new stuff I don't see a point in playing much until it's fixed. What am I supposed to do when all of my stuff is rank 30? Sell it and get new stuff...but I don't want to...and yet there's no way to advance without doing so.

Or even anything to do. Think about it. What do people do with their gear at 30. They go farm parts for new items and such right? But if all my slots are full why should I bother?

If all my slots have catalysts/reactors just from farming the entire time. Why bother with staying on for alerts.

You see where I'm going with this? It ends with players leaving because there's nothing to do. More slots would at least keep players like me (Who want to keep their hard earned ranks) a bit more playtime while "endgame" content is discussed and worked on.

(P.S. Please don't let that "endgame" content be PVP. I don't play games for their PVP, I like PVE.)

It's a F2P game, get another account.

And with that you will have the enjoyment of leveling from the start.

Yay!

[KyleOne]

Great post. Feel the same.

[Sowlsteeler]

Really excellent post, I agree about everything in here. I really love this game a lot but I can barely bring myself to reccomend it to my friends.

Honestly, as a dude whose been loving DE since that first Dark Sector trailer when it was a space game...

The market is pretty disgusting. All of the platinum systems make me cringe a little. The vague currency exchange is one of the more frustrating ones. You really nailed it Cedric.

Please DE, don't let the F2P model sink what is easily the best F2P game I've ever played!

[DetergentPod]

I recommened this game to my friend and he did the tutorial and did the first Mission (Mercury Terminus) After that he tried doing the second mission, but said he couldn't complete it because he couldn't find the door he needed to go through. I know many of you would say "Look at the minimap" and things of that nature. I do think they need to add more stuff into the tutorial, not only how to kill enemies or use skills but also how the game works. Everything from using your minimap to hacking a control or things of that nature. The first time I tried hacking a door I failed miserably 3 - 4 times since I had no idea how it worked. Since it was never explained in the tutorial in which it should of been. So currently my friend left this game and hasn't returned. =\

[Guest Bhuta]

Some good ideas Op, I'm lucky in regards to having some income to throw at the game and I understand that money needs to be made to keep the game going. The big problem is if people who cant afford to pay feel disadvantaged to much they leave meaning smaller player base which is bad for all, so I do think prices need reducing some and I really don't agree with having to pay for lives,this should just reset each game.I would rather spend platinum on items in the shop and would spend more if I didn't have to pay for lives.

[Furyion]

if too $$ u can grind and earn it.nothing wrong with that.and it works fine.and do the alerts with a ?

[11.11.11]

if too $$ u can grind and earn it.nothing wrong with that.and it works fine.and do the alerts with a ?

Excellent post OP. Hate to sound like a stuck record, but there really isn't much else to add here at this stage.

[Quikster]

op +1 great post, I agree slots need to be changed to be earnable (blueprints), free, otherwise whenver a new warframe gets added you have decide whether or not you are willing to cough up the cash/parts for the warframe + cash for a slot to store him. If it is just to build/buy him thats fine and agreeable, but not the place ot put him.

if they want to limit and charge for something do it with the inventory. it's basically like a bank in PoE or any other PVE game, you don't have to store every spare item you find, but if you want to you can buy additional space.

Definitely agree with the Orokins being big negatives. My friend and I both started and are daily debating on whether or not to do founder's, and we've pretty much come to the conclusion that until the game is playable without having to fork out cash or play the orokin slot machines that we're holding off. Which is a shame, the game is a lot of fun and has a ton of potential but Orokin's stopping my progression make it not fun.

After just over a week we're already pretty much playing other games while we wait for an alert to maybe pop up with a catalyst or rector.

I also, agree that they need to either do away with the 50 platinum and just give you what you should've bought or give you more informiaton on the tutorial on what you might want to buy and why.

I really hope update 7 does something to fix/start to fix this issue as I want to play more but I feel artifically limited now and forced to buy something rather than choosing to buy something. As it is the game needs to competely revamp Orokins or just charge an upfront fee of $15/20 and give you what you need to start and be upfront about the cost to have fun.

[Aedensin]

The free 50 platinum allows F2Pers to purchase slots.

They can have, for example, 3 Warframe and 10 Weapon slots in total if they spend that platinum wisely.

The problem is that most won't know the value of slots until long after they've spent it.

If DE don't want to change the slot system, I propose they do away with the free platinum and just give F2Pers those extra slots. Or, at the very least, offer some kind of suggestion on how to spend them, as BF amd myself have suggested previously.

-

No need for the superior tone with your replies, but I agree with your OP Ced. 100%.

I'd much prefer an orokin reactor over an extra few slots that I'd probably never use.

If new players do what I did and buy revives instead of something useful it can make their current warframe feel more like a trial run. Of course when Open Beta rolls around making a new account will be a lot easier and probably feel less dirty, but starting with that Mk1 Braton is a true annoyance. It seems worse than the Lato.

Since I did blow all my starter platinum on revives and can't afford an orokin for my excalibur, I really dislike like playing it. There is zero progression aside from unlocking weapons and the constantly pulsing arsenal button bugs the crap out of me lol.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Aedensin

[Hendrixius]

Great post Cedric - I fully agree with your approach to F2P/cash shops, and it obviously comes from experience with games that have made this model successful. I honestly don't know if anything is more important than having the smaller interval ($5-10-15-20) price points all available - and as the price points go up, incentivize the larger purchases with a little bit more platinum - doesn't have to be a lot, but it certainly will help...

The most important concept that Cedric hit is that the cash shop must expand the possibilities of how you play, but (not using it) shouldn't limit what you can play. And never underestimate multiplayer vanity - everyone wants to look cool when they drop in from that vent at the beginning of a mission. I guarantee you that somewhere someone is running an inferior mod right now b/c it gives their sword the lightning look (or whichever you prefer). :D

Entice me to spend, don't pigeon hole me into it...

This game has great potential and hopefully will emerge from closed beta better for the wear. My sincere thanks to both the devs and the community for their passion in making this game better.

Cheers from Cali,

~Hendrixius

[Nightchills]

I suport this post 100%

[Nokturnel]

Love the OP's ideas. They mirror my own.

The main and only reason I have yet to buy a founder's pack or plat at all is because of the whole Orokin Reactor/Catalyst problem. I refuse to support a company who creates a wall in content as you put it. This wall hinders and imbalances gameplay creating class warfare between F2P and P2P players.

I'd love to support this game voluntarily, but right now it seems to be trying to enforce mandatory pay in order to unlock content. Which is odd seeing as a beta tester should have access to all content for free. (To ... test the content) If you need money, ask players to voluntarily give it and give them purely cosmetic features to buy to support you, don't try to force them with some kind of gameplay scam. (Artificially limiting content in order to force players to pay if they want to see more)

----

Edited February 26, 2013 by Nokturnel

[Aretak]

Very well laid it, it's encouraging to see this kind of talk over the usual mouthy credit card warriors this kind of thing attracts. As a general rule f2p dev's seem to think more expensive prices bought by less is better, which is stupid. To assume this usually makes thins like real life spendings get in the way of actual gameplay, which is the foremost thing to do. The way to go is lots of decently priced vanity (or variance such as more helms) and convinience items, bundles also can be a useful tool.

[Obstaculo]

+ customization. but no effects.

[Codeacious]

I just started playing a couple days ago, but I really support this post.

The cash shop feels like WAY too much of a limiter, which will turn people off from the game VERY quickly, which is bad for an F2P product. I'd be for removing the Orokin system entirely, and making the weapons cost a bit more I managed to get a couple weapons within a couple of days, but the only reason that weapon progression needs to be faster is because the starter weapons are utter crap. Make the starter weapons not crap and make weapons progression take more time.

Right now, the F2P model of this game will make it fade to obscurity, which is bad because the rest of Warframe is actually quite enjoyable.