There is no reason to play conclave, but there should be

[AlphaPHENIX]

il y a 1 minute, Shichibukai88 a dit :

You need to read again, I never said remove conclave, I said it should never intefer with the main game. Reading helps.

I was noting that for people who are even more extreamly against Conclave (and Archwing).

And sorry, but it already intefers with the rest of the game...through cosmetics and serving as the best place to hone your combat skills...that latter of which is moustly unneeded in the more casual PvE side.

Look I am not ussualy into PvP either, the only time I don't avoid PvP foccused games is when they are part of a franchise I like...and then if they heavily are pay/exploit to win I just quit. Think about it, you are talking to someone who normally isn't great at and despises PvP, but tried out Conclave to get some skins...and stayed for the experiance. I am now a retired Typhoon rank player and no where near as good as actual veterans, but still sometimes play Conclave just because I want to...I wouldn't be if I didn't recognise that mode has potential which deserves to be expanded on.

[Kayvaan]

34 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

Just to punch a small hole in this little point;  Bungie managed to get the PvP balance in Destiny completely wrong and couldn't manage to figure out how to fix it at all, until many months after release.  Having done PvP games in the past well doesn't mean they'll do them well down the road when the core game's functionality is set differently.  The amount of laughably bad missteps Bungie had made with regards to Destiny's PvP were honestly something they should have been incredibly ashamed of.

Despite their background, Bungie manage to make multiple rookie-tier mistakes.  Having powers poorly balanced vs one another, having weapon falloff zones completely incorrect, having some weapons that lost vs competitors at all ranges, doing recoil completely wrong in most cases, having far, far, far too much auto-aim and bullet magnetism like Bungie has had a history with doing.

It took Bungie close to a year to finally get most of that nonsense in order.  And their PvP has exponentially fewer variables than what Warframe does.  Beyond that, the combat pacing of Destiny is insanely slow compared to Warframe's, which makes balancing a lot easier to handle.  If you quintupled player speed in Destiny, gave everyone much more powerful jump options to change direction on a dime, and removed Bungie's patented bullet magnetism, I can assure you its PvP would be 99.9% dead, and Bungie would be struggling to make anything coherent out of it.

We'll have to agree to disagree here and keep that matter short and sweet because I don't want to go on a tangent, but to stay on topic; it took about 7 months for them to fix the real issues, sure. Waframe is going to be 5 years old this year and the revised conclave is about a year old? So what's the difference..?

 

38 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

The second issue is much more tricky, and that has to do with the audience/playerbase overall.  When playing Warframe, take note of how the lion's share of players move around during PvE missions.  While we have a wealth of movement options avaialble that can be used in tandem with gunplay, the vast majority of players simply don't use them in tandem nor do they even try to.  At large, the playerbase will run, bullet jump, or use momentum stacking combinations, but only when moving from point A to point B.  Those majority of players, when they need/want to fire shots at stuff, will almost always stop what they're doing, be on the ground, then just hold aim and barely wobble back and forth at most or sometimes even stand still whilst firing at foes.

Most players are simply bad at run-n-gun, period.  The few that are have no special advantage during PvE situations in Warframe besides managing to look way cooler while fighting enemies, and having a survivability bonus that comes in-line with dodging incoming enemy fire should the player in question move well enough.  Over in PvP land though, being able to run-n-gun is a literal requirement in order to be successful.  Any player who can do this has an instant and massive advantage over every possible opponent who is on the other side of the fence.  This in turn creates a massive and very harsh divide among the playerbase and also creates even greater issues when looking at PvP overall.

On the side of the players who genuinely enjoy run-n-gun speed, they'll often find Conclave fairly fun aside the ping shenanigans that are ever present to rain on anyone's parade.  I'm a part of this particular small fragment of the playerbase, if we had proper server support I'd probably do a lot more conclave stuff.  However, with Warframe's majority playerbase this isn't the case.  They dislike run-n-gun, and in PvE they can essentially never combine Parkour and Gunplay, and be entirely successful in their missions by doing so.  These players will regularly call for changes to PvP in Warframe, demanding that it be slowed down "for balance" when in reality it's just purely to benefit their own chosen playstyle.

And that is essentially where we are in an overall sense.  When it comes down to it, it's quite unlikely that PvP will ever really take off in Warframe if it actually stays alike Warframe in terms of gameplay pacing and options.  Most of the unbalanced outliers and exploit tier shenanigans have been ironed out over time in Conclave, but the majority player will still feel that conclave isn't balanced because it favors a playstyle that most players simply are not accustomed to.  Even with proper server support, any PvP events that crop up in Warframe will be met with dissent from the majority playerbase because, as long as it's Warframe PvP, it will not fall in line with that majority player's playstyle and therefore won't feel fair to them.

There are only two real solutions to this, in an overall sense, ignoring the networking/server part of the equation.

• Change up PvE maps and gameplay scenarios to promote more run-n-gun over time.  To shift both playerbase focus and skill towards this type of play.
• Change up PvP gameplay so that it fundamentally locks players into a low-mobility (read; Non-Warframe) type of play.

And I think it goes without saying, but there are huge flaws in doing either of these things.  By changing PvE, it's simply going to alienate players who honest to goodness have no interest in learning to run-n-gun at all.  While I personally enjoy it, I'm largely glad that Warframe's gameplay doesn't enforce this type of stuff for the most part.  All-in-all it's simply more fun for most folks to give options for faster play, but not to force them upon players.  This way players can play at the pace they find to be enjoyable, and for the most part it works out really well.

The flaw with changing PvP's rules and pacing is also very simple.  It basically becomes a different video-game entirely, no longer being Warframe at all.  The freedom and pacing of the movement system is the biggest part of what makes Warframe feel different than the everyday shooting games that come out constantly in this day and age.  While slowing PvP down to a snail's pace would make it simpler for players to ease into it, it wouldn't make the game mode engaging at all.  In doing this, PvP would still be isolated away from the main game because it simply wouldn't be Warframe anymore.

In summation, it's highly unlikely that Warframe's PvP can ever take off in terms of popularity.  Much as I may find Conclave enjoyable from time to time, it's just not really in the cards.  At what is a fundamental level, it just simply can't add up.  Disappointing as that is to say.

I actually don't think there is any problem with implementing more parkour in PvE and they definitely should because right now, that's a huge problem with the game, the fact that they are straying further and further away from parkour. They're latest and most praised game update as great as it was received initially is terribly flawed and practically removes the potential of using parkour; the wall-less, largely open plains don't encourage anything beyond bullet jumping to get from point A to point B (and POE overall feels just as disconnected from the core game as conclave does too). They desperately need better level design, where Orokin Tower is probably the best tileset at their disposal with a healthy mix of parkour spliced in, and Ice Planet being the absolute worst. I don't think they should design tilesets that demand parkour, merely cater to it. 
But this is a separate issue.

I disagree with the sentiment that PvP can't take off, or that people being bad at "run and gun" creates a rift that prevents it from doing so. I also disagree with what someone said earlier that even with a fleshed out pvp, the PvE element necessary to acquire weapons/frames to play in conclave would deter people. The main reason conclave isn't popular is that it isn't put on display in any way. One fix for that would be spec mode, and there are enough people who like conclave that if it were added it could "take off" based on that kind of addition alone.