A possible Nezha rework

[MuscleBeach]

10 hours ago, (Xbox One)Grife7 said:

The issue I think most of us have is when we are at low halo levels and and we go from 5% halo to just dead in one hit. There is no time to jump out of danger, because you are dead.

This is a non-issue. What about all the squishy frames that don't have damage shields?

Also, I haven't experienced this. Nothing has ever been able to kill me in 1 shot through my Halo (except a lvl 100ish juggernaut which can do that to Rhino too). If you're sacrificing your strength, you should have a weak Halo that can fail to protect you. I'm thinking this is a case of not modding defensively enough. Vitality? Redirection? Power Strength? I run a High Strength and Range build with decent duration and Efficiency + Vitality and Redirection (I don't think I'm running any armor mods) and I don't have the issue you mentioned. 

The issue I do have: Not noticing that halo expired. Casting it too late and dying during the animation. The blind (or stun or even heat proc explosion which is also thematic) will reduce some damage you're taking and give a better visual cue that Halo is expired. 

I'm fine with all these other suggestions, if they're in implemented into an augment mod, just like Rhino. 

On 2/13/2018 at 1:50 AM, FeztacularGames said:

Now think of this, I'm in a Sortie and there is an enemy elemental enhancement AND the enemies are level 150.

In what sortie do enemies reach lvl 150? As for the rest of your post, any frame that fights standing still should expect to die, except Mesa. Nezha isn't suppose to face tank enemies. Use Divine Spears, bump into enemies with halo, light them on fire with walker, use your surroundings for cover... Also, at high lvls, your weapon choice and mod choices for it makes the biggest differences for your test. 

[(XBOX)Grife7]

7 hours ago, MuscleBeach said:

This is a non-issue. What about all the squishy frames that don't have damage shields?

Also, I haven't experienced this. Nothing has ever been able to kill me in 1 shot through my Halo (except a lvl 100ish juggernaut which can do that to Rhino too). If you're sacrificing your strength, you should have a weak Halo that can fail to protect you. I'm thinking this is a case of not modding defensively enough. Vitality? Redirection? Power Strength? I run a High Strength and Range build with decent duration and Efficiency + Vitality and Redirection (I don't think I'm running any armor mods) and I don't have the issue you mentioned. 

The issue I do have: Not noticing that halo expired. Casting it too late and dying during the animation. The blind (or stun or even heat proc explosion which is also thematic) will reduce some damage you're taking and give a better visual cue that Halo is expired. 

I'm fine with all these other suggestions, if they're in implemented into an augment mod, just like Rhino. 

In what sortie do enemies reach lvl 150? As for the rest of your post, any frame that fights standing still should expect to die, except Mesa. Nezha isn't suppose to face tank enemies. Use Divine Spears, bump into enemies with halo, light them on fire with walker, use your surroundings for cover... Also, at high lvls, your weapon choice and mod choices for it makes the biggest differences for your test. 

 I have been killed in one shot multiple times, each time from a single enemy, when I was less than 30 minutes into MOT and I had 10% halo, 170-200% power strength, vitality, and steel fiber. I didn't even have a chance to move as I was dead. This was in a firewalker heavy build so it's I'll admit Iwasnt spamming spears for cc I was using firewalker which is obviously less consistent. The problem with that isn't that we can be killed through our halo at those low levels. The problem is that in order to refresh the halo we have to purposefully put ourselves in danger. We need to get shot. If we do get shot we are likely to be killed rather than just have the halo popped. This could be fixed with a simple shield gating mechanic, but as of now there is none. Nezha's inability to survive at high levels has been a topic of many of the bog warframe youtubers. It's well known. Life of rio even made an entire video about it where he joked that the only end game Nezha is good for is sliding down hills in the plains. All we who are pushing for halo to be able to be dismissed want is a chance for Nezha to function at high levels just as well as frames like rhino and Loki can. 

 

I like your idea for the blind/stun etc. If it came with a shield gating mechanic that would be perfect. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by (XB1)Grife7

[FeztacularGames]

So I actually did a LOT of testing, of which the data was all lost due to the tab being refreshed. However my point in doing the tests was to show that Nezha is meant to be the protector¹ not Rhino and to show that Iron Skin is just SO much better than Warding Halo! I don't want Nezha to just be some gimmick that was introduced because if the Chinese release of the game, I want him to be a good frame that can stand on his own! So often when I am playing as Nezha I will need to rely on my allies, which don't get me wrong relying on others isn't a bad thing, but in a game full of badass space ninja and monsters going down in one shot after your Halo breaks ruins the experience of the game and it COMPLETELY RUINS the point of Nezha in the first place! Even if this whole Radial Blind type of mechanic was used that would be amazing, @MuscleBeach had a great idea with this and if none of the other ideas presented in this thread are introduced I would love to see this in game.

I also had a new idea for how to make Nezha work better instead if dying in one shot:

Make it so that you gain a set amount of armor/shields/overshields whenever your Halo breaks. I like this better than my previous idea of just making Nezha invulnerable, because it makes it so you have a chance to not be one shot and so that the enemies could still technically kill you. It's a little bit more balanced in my opinion.

¹https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nezha

Edited February 15, 2018 by FeztacularGames

[MuscleBeach]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Grife7 said:

The problem is that in order to refresh the halo we have to purposefully put ourselves in danger.

I mean, you shouldn't be trying to pop it. It should just happen naturally and be weary at low shield numbers and prepare for it (this is the part I mess up and why I'd like a flash CC for a better visual cue that it's gone). I guess we've had different experiences, which is fine. Your experiences matter just as much as mine. I've noticed a trend with myself on these forums. I often agree with what everyone wants but the way I would prefer it achieved is very different. I see they don't like letting us recast abilities that are still active a lot of the time so I stick to that and try to find alternatives. I'd be fine with recasting his Halo. It's just my least preferred fix. I tend to like more flavorful solutions since choosing to not let it be recast was probably a decision they consciously made. 

3 hours ago, FeztacularGames said:

So I actually did a LOT of testing,

Just make sure you're testing regular Rhino to Nezha. Halo scales off of armor and comparing Nezha to Prime version is unfair as it has much more armor naturally (which makes a big difference with armor mods). 

3 hours ago, FeztacularGames said:

I also had a new idea for how to make Nezha work better instead if dying in one shot:

Make it so that you gain a set amount of armor/shields/overshields whenever your Halo breaks. I like this better than my previous idea of just making Nezha invulnerable, because it makes it so you have a chance to not be one shot and so that the enemies could still technically kill you. It's a little bit more balanced in my opinion.

I agree with this. An effect on expiration is my preferred method of solution for Nezha. 

[EchoesOfRain]

What if Warding Halo gained some health when an enemy affected by a heat proc is killed? It'd work well with Firewalker and Blazing Chakram without interrupting the flow of Nezha's gameplay

 

 

[FeztacularGames]

1 hour ago, EchoesOfRain said:

What if Warding Halo gained some health when an enemy affected by a heat proc is killed? It'd work well with Firewalker and Blazing Chakram without interrupting the flow of Nezha's gameplay

 

 

I like this idea, but are you referring to fire procs from everything? Like if I put heat on my Nikana I could gain health for Warding Halo by killing enemies with it?

It just seems like that would be broken for really good weapon with heat attached to it, unless of course this isn't what you meant.

Edited February 15, 2018 by FeztacularGames

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

Am 8.2.2018 um 06:38 schrieb InDueTime-EN-:

No, defensive skills are generally not recastable. This is just so there is still some risk. 

rhinos ironskin augment *cough*

the recastabilitiy should have been part of nezhas augment too it s not like that shield super cheap either...

the amount it absorbs is a joke too in higher lvls...

Am 8.2.2018 um 07:45 schrieb Trickst3rGawd:

You're acting like there isn't a first for everything. Maybe this isnt the way to go about it but Nezha's warding halo needs some serious buffing. For low leveled content it's good. Playing somewhere like MOT and trying cast  Warding is a death sentence most of the time. Maybe we can find some compromise?

it wouldnt be a first..see above...also chroma can now recast too...

 

 @MuscleBeach u forgot that rhinos ironskin absorbs dmg to increase it s shield amount during the invulnerable time too mostly because of this ironskin is still viable in high lvl

(and can lead to very very big shields if used properly) while nezhas shield is not. if i remember correctly the time invulnerable is also longer for ironskin

 

 

 

[MuscleBeach]

2 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

 

 @MuscleBeach u forgot that rhinos ironskin absorbs dmg to increase it s shield amount during the invulnerable time too mostly because of this ironskin is still viable in high lvl

"Upon activation, Warding Halo is invulnerable for 1.5 / 2 / 3 / 3 seconds. All incoming damage that is absorbed during the invulnerability period is converted into health and added to the ring's health."

And they're both 3 seconds. I just checked all this. 

3 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

rhinos ironskin augment *cough*

the recastabilitiy should have been part of nezhas augment too it s not like that shield super cheap either...

I agree with DE that it should be kept in augments at most. It shouldn;t be inherent to any skill unless you're going to give a unique mechanic to it to balance it out. Taking a mod slot (augment) is a good price to pay for a recast-able shield and I'm all for it being added to nezha's halo augment. 

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb MuscleBeach:

"Upon activation, Warding Halo is invulnerable for 1.5 / 2 / 3 / 3 seconds. All incoming damage that is absorbed during the invulnerability period is converted into health and added to the ring's health."

And they're both 3 seconds. I just checked all this. 

I agree with DE that it should be kept in augments at most. It shouldn;t be inherent to any skill unless you're going to give a unique mechanic to it to balance it out. Taking a mod slot (augment) is a good price to pay for a recast-able shield and I'm all for it being added to nezha's halo augment. 

strange i could swear ironskin had 5s...but u r right it s 3 s both

though the wiki said dmg is added to nezhas shield compared to rhinos ironskin u wont generate as much in most cases unless u stop moving let them shoot at u after invulnerable ends u move forward again which simply disrupt flow...but if u dont stop u will most likely run near enemies thus staggering them with ur halo which results naturally in a weaker shield 

it also sux that nezha has to stop moving when casting her shield, it doesnt matter much for rhino cause he only has to cast once but i usually cast 4 times for the whole squad the bonus speed is nice after all

 

edit: i think ironskin counts as ferritarmor right? while nezha shield is a normal shield which does not profit from dmg reduction through armor

Edited February 16, 2018 by Lord_Yawgmoth

[MuscleBeach]

12 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

though the wiki said dmg is added to nezhas shield compared to rhinos ironskin u wont generate as much in most cases unless u stop moving let them shoot at u after invulnerable ends u move forward again which simply disrupt flow...but if u dont stop u will most likely run near enemies thus staggering them with ur halo which results naturally in a weaker shield 

You're trying way too hard to make Halo sound worse than it is. If you can CC people while you're invulnerable you can CC people while you're also vulnerable. If that damage is really that much to make a difference on your shield, then Halo is OP because it will keep CCing as you run around while Iron Skin doesn't CC. 

14 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

it also sux that nezha has to stop moving when casting her shield, it doesnt matter much for rhino cause he only has to cast once but i usually cast 4 times for the whole squad the bonus speed is nice after all

Yes, the long cast time should be made up for in some way. 

[Trickst3rGawd]

1 hour ago, MuscleBeach said:

You're trying way too hard to make Halo sound worse than it is. If you can CC people while you're invulnerable you can CC people while you're also vulnerable. If that damage is really that much to make a difference on your shield, then Halo is OP because it will keep CCing as you run around while Iron Skin doesn't CC. 

Yes, the long cast time should be made up for in some way. 

Literally just needs to be lessened man..faster cast speed and his halo will be better overall..

[helioth137]

29 minutes ago, Trickst3rGawd said:

Literally just needs to be lessened man..faster cast speed and his halo will be better overall..

skill based solution: bullet jump into the air, aim glide, cast whilst floating... unless of course, it can only be activated on the ground... like some skills ;) 

[Trickst3rGawd]

6 minutes ago, helioth137 said:

skill based solution: bullet jump into the air, aim glide, cast whilst floating... unless of course, it can only be activated on the ground... like some skills ;) 

If you aim glide it's easy as F*** for a crewmen to just one shot you either way. Plus warframe isn't really a game of skill lmfao. I'd also like to add this his 2 and 4 need tweaks as well. I don't know why people are making a big deal out of lessening it's casting casting time. He's a frame that's about speed, support, and efficiency. It would literally take 1 line of text. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Trickst3rGawd

[(XBOX)KickassNinja14]

only a few things I want for nezha. 

Faster cast speeds so natural talent doesn't feel absolutely needed

removal of 2nd cast on his 4th and just add the damage to initial cast or even get rid of the damage all together 

include the cast animation of halo is the invulnerability period

make the augment for firewalker expand like ice wave or hallowed ground. 

With these changes Nezha becomes like 5 times better. Everything else thats wrong with him can be bypassed but these that I mentioned are dangerous and extremely annoying to deal with.  

[Trickst3rGawd]

18 minutes ago, (Xbox One)KickassNinja14 said:

only a few things I want for nezha. 

Faster cast speeds so natural talent doesn't feel absolutely needed

removal of 2nd cast on his 4th and just add the damage to initial cast or even get rid of the damage all together 

include the cast animation of halo is the invulnerability period

make the augment for firewalker expand like ice wave or hallowed ground. 

With these changes Nezha becomes like 5 times better. Everything else thats wrong with him can be bypassed but these that I mentioned are dangerous and extremely annoying to deal with.  

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

[EchoesOfRain]

38 minutes ago, (Xbox One)KickassNinja14 said:

make the augment for firewalker expand like ice wave or hallowed ground. 

I would love this, and would actually use Pyroclastic Flow. Right now the trail it leaves is just too thin for an offensive skill. Enemies will easily avoid it with no problem

 

also, the thought of that kinda makes me think of this

 

Maybe not quite that strong, but the idea of firewalker having a taller flame intrigues me

[FeztacularGames]

I think the following idea will help with energy consumption regarding Nezha.
"Nezha Safeguard Augment: Warding Halo can be cast on allies with 50% effectiveness and 50% effieciency"

In order to make Nezha better in general I suggest just giving him the same and or more armor than Rhino, so that he can live up to his name as a protection deity.

39 minutes ago, (Xbox One)KickassNinja14 said:

"Faster cast speeds so natural talent doesn't feel absolutely needed"

Yes, this is a very big issue with Nezha.

"removal of 2nd cast on his 4th and just add the damage to initial cast or even get rid of the damage all together"

 I don't typically use Divine Spears, but this idea combined with a new augment for them might make a Divine Spears Nezha actually work

"include the cast animation of halo is the invulnerability period" 

I have been saying that he could be invulnerable during cast since the beginning of this thread

"make the augment for firewalker expand like ice wave or hallowed ground."

I think that Firewalker on it's own without the augment should be wider, so if they decide to make it so, this idea will not be needed.

I think that there could be some augment/passive that makes it so when Nezha takes damage it increases his armor by a set amount for a certain amount of time and this can also be stacked with Warding Halo so let's say...

10 damage on shields grants 5 armor and 20 damage grants 10 armor, and so on and so forth until 100 damage grants 50 armor.

[FeztacularGames]

3 hours ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

it also sux that nezha has to stop moving when casting her shield, it doesnt matter much for rhino cause he only has to cast once but i usually cast 4 times for the whole squad the bonus speed is nice after all

Simple mistake, Nezha is a he though.

Edited February 16, 2018 by FeztacularGames

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb FeztacularGames:

Simple mistake, Nezha is a he though.

true my bad

[MuscleBeach]

17 hours ago, Trickst3rGawd said:

Literally just needs to be lessened man..faster cast speed and his halo will be better overall..

Yes, but I try not to undermine DE's flavor design choices. That would fix it but not the fix I would personally choose. Also, everyone complains about cast speed on any skill with an animation. There's a thread around here for Atlas where I saw someone say that the cast time for new Petrify is too long... The thing takes like half a second... If it were up to the community, faster cast mods would be worthless. Sometimes you have to respect DE's design choices and offer alternative solutions. For me, this is one of those times. 

15 hours ago, (Xbox One)KickassNinja14 said:

include the cast animation of halo is the invulnerability period

I like this. I wish I thought of this haha. 

[Trickst3rGawd]

1 hour ago, MuscleBeach said:

Yes, but I try not to undermine DE's flavor design choices. That would fix it but not the fix I would personally choose. Also, everyone complains about cast speed on any skill with an animation. There's a thread around here for Atlas where I saw someone say that the cast time for new Petrify is too long... The thing takes like half a second... If it were up to the community, faster cast mods would be worthless. Sometimes you have to respect DE's design choices and offer alternative solutions. For me, this is one of those times. 

I like this. I wish I thought of this haha. 

I feel that. Honesty saying Atlas's petrify casting speed was slow is just absurd I have to admit, but there are a couple frames that have slow casting times and I don't think that should be the case in a fast paced game. All of Titania's abilities are super slow to cast, Mirage's Disco ball is too slow to cast, Nezha's 2 3 and 4 are slow to cast, Oberon's smite is too slow to cast, Mag's crush is slow cast..I don't believe it should be this way at all. I'm not exaggerating at all or being untruthful like the OP about atlas. You were saying that sometimes we have to respect DE's design choices..but we are. By taking the frame, coloring it and going out and playing that frame. Sometimes some designs have flaws and it isn't being disrespectful to pointing out something that could be fixed.

Edit: "include the cast animation of halo is the invulnerability period" I would not mine this.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Trickst3rGawd

[(XBOX)Grife7]

My problem with natural talent is that a lot of frames don't need it, while to others it is almost a necessity. It seems rather arbitrary. I would be very interested to know why, for example, they chose to give halo a fairly long cast time, while iron skin is almost instant. Having long cast times is a huge disadvantage for a frame. They either must use up an entire mod slot just to be able to cast at speeds other frames can at base or they are left with dangerously long cast times which disrupt the flow of combat. This is an incredibly fast paced game. Slow cast times occasionally equal death and more importantly it just isn't fun to have a frame stop for seconds to move their arms in order to cast. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by (XB1)Grife7

[GrimmMonsoon.ttv]

On 09/02/2018 at 2:44 AM, FeztacularGames said:

I am currently playing a level 60 bounty and all of my allies are dying because Warding Halo keeps breaking. I think something should be done to make it better even if it's not what I suggested.

Then you need a better build, dude. My WH Build holds up up to level 100 enemies easy. 

[Trickst3rGawd]

3 hours ago, GrimMonsoon said:

Then you need a better build, dude. My WH Build holds up up to level 100 enemies easy. 

Video proof. 

[FeztacularGames]

12 hours ago, GrimMonsoon said:

Then you need a better build, dude. My WH Build holds up up to level 100 enemies easy. 

I have a build that includes the most strength an most armor I can possibly have, so to say that I need a better build is completely absurd.

This is also stacked with Unairu's Stone Skin which with my current rank give 40+ armor.

If you have this build that can apparently handle level 100 enemies then why not show us? I know it might sound a little bit childish to say "no pics or it didn't happen", but I really have a hard time believing you otherwise.