Eisvogel Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 -snip- I agree, probably part of reaching an acceptable endgame and make the game challenging, is start making abilities what they should be => A limited use tactical advantage.... instead of a spam free fest ownage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvi1207 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 i have an idea, what about temporary weak spots? you stun them enough for them to open up then..PREPARE YOUR ANUS ancients the stunning recovery and weak spot time would be lower the higher level the foes are, example ancients: kick them in the face, their chest opens up, pow pow dead heavy grineer unit: shooting at the left side of the neck would reveal a gas leak and shooting it would provoke them to blow up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisvogel Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) -snip- Actually, if the energy spam stops, this could be great. And they wouldn't all need to be "temporary" there could be specific enemy related objects you could aim for... as well as parts in the enemies you could attack/break/disable. For instance... like many other grames, enemies could make accuracy even more rewarding displaying objects related to the enemy type... like the one you described... also, grineer flamethrower guys could have their fuel tanks on the back and you could blow em up, etc. I'll add the entry to OP Edited August 24, 2013 by Eisvogel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvi1207 Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 New weapon entries: -healing beam -mine placer -heavy explosive damage weapon, fully automatic but explosions do 150 damage and have a 0.75m explosion radius -disrupting grenades -placeable sentry -homing missle launcher (locks on to random enemies in the lock box, launches 8 mini missles, then reloads, it takes time to lock-on to full 8 enemies, can be upgraded with fire rate) Warframe entries: -Viking frame (rhino-like berzerker, more offensive capabilites with 110 armor) -Fortress frame (highly armored frame, preferably a head taller than others, would only have defensive capabilites, such as mobile shields, and would have very high armor, higher than rhino/frost ¿maybe 200?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisvogel Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 Healing beams or such would probably kinda neglect trinity's skill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvi1207 Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Healing beams or such would probably kinda neglect trinity's skill no they dont, in fact in reinforces it, it would be health per second, not insta heal, like a uber beam, and it could only target ONE ally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisvogel Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 no they dont, in fact in reinforces it, it would be health per second, not insta heal, like a uber beam, and it could only target ONE ally It could work, if the gameplay pace is addressed and we get at least some of the much needed reworks, i could totally see that..... if the gameplay wasn't always the same pace and the same dullness, i could totally see Tenno having a role in the squad (not fixed, but a free choice) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvi1207 Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 It could work, if the gameplay pace is addressed and we get at least some of the much needed reworks, i could totally see that..... if the gameplay wasn't always the same pace and the same dullness, i could totally see Tenno having a role in the squad (not fixed, but a free choice) roles are in already, just badly implemented, roles can be distinguished by what the WFs abilities do, and how those interact the best with other weapons and abilites, just that the weapon part is incomplete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intrude Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Ok, so what I can see from here is that warframe can do with some delicate gameplay tweaks, and more things to add related to the combat. Most of all, I am most concerned about DE being open to the more daring improvements like the jetpack (mentioned in the livestream). They are most afraid of popping out of their "rp" space ninja. Thing is, they don't have any lore to back up that space ninja "rp", so there is absolutely no harm popping out of it. This is by far to me, their most critical point. They are not daring enough to implement the ideas of the commnity. Lore has already been discussed that it cannot be implemented into the game in a whole chunk. However if it is, the game will have a very awkward outcome. So lore is already as good as dead for this game. It was either to add in at the start, or not at all. Endgame should not be worried about as long as warframe can come out of their "boring" design. Endgame will transition smoothly once the game is "ready" I believe. Warframe is still in open beta and endgame is not even close to being ready since the game itself is already under development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paprika Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I saw a couple of posts about how it's a "4 spam-fest", so I decided to link to a post of mine that I liked. Read through pg 4 of this thread for an impressive energy suggestion. To limit the ulti spamming, The Ulti could eat up a percentage of the maximum overheat bar instead of just eating up a specific number. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/90792-energy-system-discussion/page-4 Forgive me if I've already posted this. The thread has reached 16 pages, and I'm failing to keep track of everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisvogel Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 -snip- Don't worry, i see no harm in posting something useful again if you already have before and it was lost among the thread :3 I have read through.... and i must say, as nice as it sounds..... i think i agree with where the discussion goes after that. No frame should have a "press to win" able to bypass things like water. For example, IT IS NOT OKAY that Loki can just go through any mission perma invisible with no worries. It's even worse if stealth missions are developed and people who don't have enough slots to keep a Loki for example, get completely left out and with massive disadvantages to stealth. That's why i think i prefer a Cooldown system instead of the overheat. Because that will really start preventing the spam fest and actually make abilities a tactical move that involves thinking smart instead of just pressing a button whenever you feel like it. People may be able to wait for CD and make their gameplay pace much slower, but that's their choice..... AND, you won't be always in a situation where you can happily wait. Maybe people will complain at first, and that's partially because they got spoonfed and spoiled for a long time, letting the gameplay become a dull thing without any feeling, skill or challenge. I think that kind of limiting systems plus changes to the gameplay and enemies, like some of the ideas here.... can take the game pace exactly to where it needs to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paprika Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 -snip- I think the problem here isn't that moves can be spammed. It's that there are some moves that are obviously gamebreaking when spammed. I don't like how Loki's Invisibility works. I think it needs a rework. Same goes for a lot of the Ultimates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisvogel Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 -snip- Why not? If you think about it..... if we shift the balance of the "game-breaking" abilities (along with every other ability) from the ability itself, to a global cooldown.... we may find ourselves in a place where every ability has a cost/benefit ratio and any so called "OP" skill, starts getting diluted into the CD system.... thus, indirectly being automatically balanced and regulated (or at least a lot more balanced). I am not saying the overheating system wouldn't work with more tweaking, but i think i see the cooldown idea with a much prosper future. Because, if made a global cooldown.... the choice about using each skill and when, becomes a very critical and tactical decision. By this i mean, for instance... if you use your uber you will have the longest cooldown, possibly longer for the most powerful abilities..... and you can't use ANY ability while on cooldown, where using a first skill will take the minimal toll in terms of cooldown. System like those also allow an easier balance of the skills, since you no longer have to worry about making one skill very good and the need to re-balance the others..... since you have the CD for that. If i have the time, i might as well make a new thread about energy... hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r3dzer0 Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 i've actually read from a user that played during closed beta and they had a cd on ults. according to him people would wait the 30-60 seconds for their kill all room clearer before preceding. that severely hampered game play so they replaced it with what we have now. i think overheat, stances, or solar system mentioned by pxdubin/notionphil/thypai respectively are all viable options. i fear though we may be getting side tracked a bit :P as for jpv's ideas, those are kinda more of the same thing. The problem is that DE has specifically come out and said that they do not want the game to turn into roles. there kinda is that anyways because you have your ccers, your nukers, your tankers. but you do not have to play that role. that's one thing that is very nice about this game. the game itself is just a high paced version of ME3 at the moment. IN the end, the majority of the weapons and the new warframes will just exacerbate the current problem which is we have too many weapons and frames and nothing to do other than defense with them. I know they have boss reworks slated for the future, but i fear the majority of them will end up like vor/krill where you just sit there and wait. there has to be a way to deactivate their invulnerability. the way i described a possible boss showdown with vor addresses that by having a unit, or you can have a console that you have to hack, but keeping the threat very alive while fighting. Boss fights should be in your face and dangerous. one wrong step and you may wipe the mission. that is the kind of thing we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paprika Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) -snip- The thing is, I think there are some moves that we SHOULD be able to spam. Switch Teleport isn't useless. You'll find isolated situations in which it does wonders, but I don't think it can become anything other than situational until you're able to spam its, allowing you to manipulate the positions of allies and opponents alike. After the tutorial, I chose Loki specifically for Switch Teleport. Unfortunately, it potential is hampered by the fact that you can't use it regularly and because given the choice between Decoy and Switch Teleport, Decoy usually wins. For it to beat Decoy in terms of usefulness, I feel that you'll need to be able to spam it. EDIT: grammar Edited August 24, 2013 by Paprika Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r3dzer0 Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) -snip- I agree that they need to step out. but they really don't have to step away from Space Ninja. as for the jetpack, o god please no. i'm even hesitant about a grappling hook. as for lore that can be implemented fairly easily and it most definitely needs to be implemented. we're in a war with no feeling of a war. we have minimal forces but still can destroy hundreds, nay thousands with no problem at all. I say that implementation can be fairly easy, and let me tell you how. Endgame. You can tell a rather large chunk of grineer reasoning for attacking the tenno and leave cliff hangers. If you ever play a game, you never get the whole story upfront. you gradually unlock it as you progress. Endgame can accomplish this. if you look at my suggestion for a vor endgame boss here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/page-14 , you can receive this knowledge from vor as his dying words or something. I used Vor since he has been the most recycled and in the current"lore" that we have he seemed rather vital to the capturing and killing of the tenno. endgame needs to be there. you cannot write a story without knowing how you want it to start and end. they have a sort of beginning but the end is very very absent from this game. you cannot have endgame without lore, nor can you have lore without endgame, its a very symbiotic relationship. Edited August 24, 2013 by r3dzer0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisvogel Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 -snip- Exactly, i agree.... that's why i told you the balance could be shifted to the cooldowns. While cooldown would be global for all abilities, each ability could have it's own timer and it could even vary depending on the frame (since skills aren't the same and even if on the same "position" some can't really be compared to others)... so things like switch teleport would have little to no cooldown, hence making it practically spammable and without affecting the balance since it's now adjusted with different cooldowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paprika Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 -snip- Ok, I get where you're going with this. It'd be great if you came up with a concept or extended explanation in a new thread. I'm curious as to how this'll turn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisvogel Posted August 25, 2013 Author Share Posted August 25, 2013 -snip- Yeah you are probably right, i'll try to find the time to make a new thread with a detailed concept of the idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r3dzer0 Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 Cds will just hamper gameplay. If you're going to reduce spam you must change the current energy system. As one person said if my room clearer is on cd why would I not wait till it comes back up to clean out the next room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisvogel Posted August 25, 2013 Author Share Posted August 25, 2013 Cds will just hamper gameplay. If you're going to reduce spam you must change the current energy system. As one person said if my room clearer is on cd why would I not wait till it comes back up to clean out the next room? Well, don't you think it adds to the challenge of the gameplay and makes room for a much more enjoyable endgame (if they ever add one)? We can change the energy system, but at best it will lower the spam fest.... not erase it...... i've seen some overheat systems out there, and at least the ones i saw didn't really fix the problem and would not really make the game better. Another original and polished idea was notionphil's stances. The problem with that, is how it's focused on a given playstyle to gain energy according to the stance.... and that's a big no no in my opinion.... there's no reason to mix the abilities with playstyle, and it wouldn't prevent spamming for the ones who "earn" it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rechot Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 this game is in beta you have to remember that it wont get into a endgame until the game actually starts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvi1207 Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 update 11 or 12 will mark the end of open beta, hope they release special beta gifts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fijasrules Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 (edited) I believe that endgame should be similar to the cells proposed lines of extremely difficult missions that are like quests to lead up to a boss fight of EPIC proportions that is nigh impossible to beat solo without the best gear. It will till be very difficult to beat in a team because of scaling and come crowd control. Think about the extremely hard end game bosses (there are too many to list) and then model this game to be just as epic or better because of the capabilities of parkour and abilities in this game compared to other games that r static in the actual way that u kill bosses (i love how warframe isn't reaction based like many other bosses and how u can kill however u wish.) Maybe have each player locked in against it at the same time and make it like solo but your working together to kill it just separate. Imagine it being having locks that only are able to be used when 1 player is in the room and all the nodes must be defeated (2 per person in squad) that locks players in other rooms by the means of switch teleport in the cut scene and to beat him you must defeat that part of the boss to get together again to face the boss together after it leaves the central area. TL;DR make it have quest like missions to an epic boss battle that is cool Edited August 26, 2013 by Fijasrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvi1207 Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 i believe that endgame should be similar to the cells proposed lines of extremely difficult missions that are like quests to lead up to a boss fight of EPIC proportions that is nigh impossible to beat solo without the best gear. It will till be very difficult to beat in a team because of scaling and come crowd control. Think about the extremely hard end game bosses (there are too many to list) and then model this game to be just as epic or better because of the capabilities of parkour and abilities in this game compared to other games that r static in the actual way that u kill bosses (i love how warframe isn't reaction based like many other bosses and how u can kill however u wish.) Maybe have each player locked in against it at the same time and make it like solo but your working together to kill it just separate. Imagine it being having locks that only are able to be used when 1 player is in the room and all the nodes must be defeated (2 per person in squad) that locks players in other rooms by the means of switch teleport in the cut scene and to beat him you must defeat that part of the boss to get together again to face the boss together after it leaves the central area. OR campaigns unlocked through mastery ranks, a set of missions to complete with the same squad always, it would last 2 hours to finish entirely,and the rewards would scale to the amount of kills, headshots, assists and bruce lee kicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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