We Need Endgame And A Challenge - What Do We Expect For Warframe's Future?

[KARMA2605]

Regards to my previous post, replayed J2000 last night a couple of times.  Guys brought a Rhino and Nova, wasn't even close to the same fight.  So looks like you were right Eisvogel.

 

Maybe then the real problem is DE needs to look at the frames that are starting to or have always seemed "necessary".  The Rhino's, Vauban's, Frost's, etc.  Me and my group played some T3 defense last night without a Frost, because we're all sick of playing Frost.  It was a challenge and we lost with 3 waves to go.  We went back with different frames trying different combinations trying to find ways to get through it without Frost and Vauban and Rhino. 

 

It is possible, so maybe the problem isn't the necessarily the game difficulty as it is the Power Design that allows us to trivialize the difficulty.

[Eisvogel]

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I mainly agree with that, since the game allow us to either make everything straight easy..... or face impossible levels that simply hit-scan one shot us. But that's expected from lazy pure stat games. Look at golem for example, i destroyed him with frost standing in one place and just unleashing hell with despair. You can just go walking and chilling without a worry, and you'll evade all his attacks (by evading of course, i mean just happily and slowly walk away from them :P)

Edited September 16, 2013 by Eisvogel

[Eisvogel]

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Really amazing feedback, thanks for the time you put into that! Had to delay it a while to read it properly, but overall i like it.

And the close bosses off part, should be easily done... since that's they way it is with jackal... there should be no problem into expanding that to the rest of bosses and putting it as a standard measure

[CloudPies]

WHAT DO WE EXPECT FOR WARFRAME'S FUTURE?

At the rate development is currently going:

Dead by Christmas, and guttered by PS4 players.

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

Well.... it is sad, but it also seems very true.

I guess we can do little more than trying to keep giving feedback and maybe they will finally get things right... or maybe it's as you say and it's already too late. I really hope it isn't

[Eisvogel]

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About golem.... it has been a tad bit upped, it's still easy as pie just as i described before. I don't know what's the current state of the non host damage problems.

 

Nekros desecrate seems to be every bit of the disappointment forums claimed, though i have my fun in survivals looting a massive amount of corpses and getting extra air, other than survival and maybe ED..... the use of desecrate is mostly a waste

[r3dzer0]

maybe for desecrate to work a little better( this is clearly off topic from the points of the op) it could add a minor explode? so it could be somewhat tactical.  maybe 100-200 damage.  its nothing to applaud but it'd atleast make it a little better.

 

Still haven't gotten to golem mostly cuz my internet was acting up all weekend.  I'll probably get my bros on and go do it a few times.... still don't really want nekros because just at a glance he's very underwhelming. 

 

On topic now: Yay we're back on the first page :D

I posted this in another topic, but I think it actually might be a good idea.  The grind really isn't too bad( i had everything extra minus the nav coordinates) but i think that they should have released it a tad differently.  They should have released derelicts as a ship you could get onto but only after you activate the missions by farming the levels.  Originally i said release it as a moon of jupiter and after you unlock the levels with the keys they are perma unlocked.  if they do that with all content that is ahead it could ease burnout a bit.  Or instead they really could have taken Lephantis and made a cell out of the whole thing.  As it stands is there really a reason that we're supposed to go to this dying ship? Lore-wise not game wise. 

 

This allows for specific tilesets to be made, new enemy types to be introduced and lore to be infused leading up to a climactic finish for fighting some bosses.  I don't know if they really need the impasses that Notionphil mentioned, since rng loves us so much already, but I think it could go a long way to easing the pain in the player base.  Once again though, these endgame bosses, what would make us retain our attention on them, want to continue to run them, other than the challenge?  many games reward hard to get armor/mounts etc to keep you engaged on a specific enemy, but at the same time they have limited loot drops so not everyone gets the same loot like we do. 

[Eisvogel]

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As far as the lore and story goes, i think it's due time they do something about it.... at this point it's just embarrassing. And even if we say we can justify the need of keys of some sort to reach the Orokin Void....... why would we need keys to reach the derelicts ???? (The derelict didn't enter the void, for unknown reasons.... and there the Orokin where wiped out by the infested, presumably the first historic reference of infestation appearing).

 

On another note, after playing the new insane alerts that have lvl 101-103 enemies with some not uber geared players... i realize that hit-scan and auto-detection need to go, to provide a real good challenge and not some cheapness of the likes of nightmare mode. We were in a grineer mission, and this guy went wallrunning from side to side in the tile with walkways and lava below.... and he got downed while wallrunning (one would expect that movements would be the best dodging tactics while also looking awesome :P) by a flamer guy...... that for some reason by the way, the flame doesn't need time to reach you apparently... it's like hit-scan, it hits you the moment it fires. I am thinking about a nice way to balance it, and probably finish the grineer section with that.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Eisvogel

[r3dzer0]

I agree with you there.. I went to do the forma alert yesterday and i got grouped in with a bunch of low level guys v  66-68 grineer.  I could only kill so many before they got the best of me.  That auto aim is absolutely ridiculous.  kinda pointless to have all sorts of dodges when they don't work v the grineer.  as far as i know the scorcher has always been hitscan.  On a more serious note, i was playing an exterminate derelict solo when the grineer boarded the ship.  Napalms apparently have a 40ft ingame damage radius.  Someone will have to try it to confirm but he was hitting a spot i was no where near and i kept getting hit by him.  odd huh.

 

As for lore: yeah something would be nice.  I know steve said something about codices but that's just cheap... I mean really? just find them but we're not going to inject it into the story.  Lephantis has a good chance to have Lore surrounding him.  Why is he here?  maybe he controls the infested in the sector from a ship that he stopped from going to the void.  maybe after you kill him he could talk a bit more about the infestation and how its coming to convert us all.  There just feels like a lot of missed opportunities and the more i sit back to look at the game, the more i tend to see that it might just be a pvpve type game where leaderboards are all that matter :(

[Eisvogel]

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Yes, napalm and scorchs are a big problem.... they are quite broken and can easily disappear any shields/health.... not on skill, but as usual, on cheapness... with instant auto aim + detection, and a flamethrower that hit-scans you without the need of actually hitting you. That's also why the survival event on grineer had no chance.... people died even inside a frost globe just to napalm :/

 

and yeah... i feel ya on the lore part, particularly because if they ever do something about it, the existing playerbase will miss a great deal of it... having played most of the things already, without a backstory to fall back on.... or any sense of progression/discovery as new events unfold.

[r3dzer0]

Yes, napalm and scorchs are a big problem.... they are quite broken and can easily disappear any shields/health.... not on skill, but as usual, on cheapness... with instant auto aim + detection, and a flamethrower that hit-scans you without the need of actually hitting you. That's also why the survival event on grineer had no chance.... people died even inside a frost globe just to napalm :/

 

and yeah... i feel ya on the lore part, particularly because if they ever do something about it, the existing playerbase will miss a great deal of it... having played most of the things already, without a backstory to fall back on.... or any sense of progression/discovery as new events unfold.

well they can introduce some content that takes you back, at least a little.  endgame could re-reference the beginning levels and maybe have something to do with them?  I mentioned the derelict keys could unlock a planetoid.  well what if we do that with a ship etc, or mercury itself and the only way to do that is to progress through the system again? I'm just rambling on at this point

 

Side note: me and my brother did Lephantis, and besides having a 1 hit death at some point and a lot of disposable ammo, it was very easy.  I was ash he was Nova and it only took like 2 minutes( and that's just because the sucker didn't want to open up) all in all i felt very underwhelmed.  Maybe its just cuz of years of hearing "stay out of the fire" in wow >.> it was fun.... but i don't want nekros so i'll probably never play the level again, which is sad.  clearly a missed mark for re-playability.

[TwoSquares]

+1

 

Some great ideas being bounced around in here. The depth of the game and re-playability are my biggest concerns right now. I mentioned this in the post I made and will go back to link to it in my reply... But, it looks like everyone has already seen it ;) 

Edited September 21, 2013 by TwoSquares

[jpvi1207]

there should be a mission where we would assist waves of allies (lotus troops, using soma, braton, lex in case of high rank commanders) where there would be a  full out invasion to it, the thing is, the enemy still has the advantage, why? because they have turrets, cannons AND tanks,  (some lotus troops would be carrying an explosive device and you would have to cover them when they decide to go blow the tank/cannon/turret up) and the objective would be to capture multiple points

[Eisvogel]

+1

 

Some great ideas being bounced around in here. The depth of the game and re-playability are my biggest concerns right now. I mentioned this in the post I made and will go back to link to it in my reply... But, it looks like everyone has already seen it ;) 

 

Thanks for the input!

Also, link us your thread if the post you made is related to any of the topics discussed :D

[BladesGenesis]

there should be a mission where we would assist waves of allies (lotus troops, using soma, braton, lex in case of high rank commanders) where there would be a  full out invasion to it, the thing is, the enemy still has the advantage, why? because they have turrets, cannons AND tanks,  (some lotus troops would be carrying an explosive device and you would have to cover them when they decide to go blow the tank/cannon/turret up) and the objective would be to capture multiple points

 

Now this sounds pretty cool.  The only problem i see would be ally AI being somewhat stupid. 

[r3dzer0]

Now this sounds pretty cool.  The only problem i see would be ally AI being somewhat stupid. 

You're probably right.  Even as it is with having hundreds of enemies spawn, to include vehicles turrets and allies would dumb down the whole system and make both sides rather $&*&*#(%&.  Though enemies have the advantage in that they still work somewhat compared to our allies( looking at rescue missions >.>) that just run in circles and get shot.

[jpvi1207]

You're probably right.  Even as it is with having hundreds of enemies spawn, to include vehicles turrets and allies would dumb down the whole system and make both sides rather $&*&*#(%&.  Though enemies have the advantage in that they still work somewhat compared to our allies( looking at rescue missions >.>) that just run in circles and get shot.

guess al we can do is pray for the DE to give the AIs a better reasoning :L

[Eisvogel]

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That would be pretty neat, i honestly like the idea (it remembers me of that fabled mission in Zone of the Enders The 2nd runner, where you would face army vs army and everything just went insane, with you helping here and there all over the place.... so much epicness that you wouldn't believe)

 

There are two problems though....... story/plot wise.... i don't know how to justify such scenario since Tenno work in Cells and everything, but maybe we could say the job of the cell is carrying out specific tasks about that battle/scenario (and the allies wouldn't be Tenno of course).... and since there's not any plot/story to begin with in WF..... they could let this in just as well.

The other problem is game wise..... more as in, performance. The performance in WF is already bad (though the multi rendering option at least seems to help now), i don't know how well they would manage to pull the extra work of a massive warfare with ally AIs. And the lag would probably become even more of a concern.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Eisvogel

[jpvi1207]

That would be pretty neat, i honestly like the idea (it remembers me of that fabled mission in Zone of the Enders The 2nd runner, where you would face army vs army and everything just went insane, with you helping here and there all over the place.... so much epicness that you wouldn't believe)

 

There are two problems though....... story/plot wise.... i don't know how to justify such scenario since Tenno work in Cells and everything, but maybe we could say the job of the cell is carrying out specific tasks about that battle/scenario (and the allies wouldn't be Tenno of course).... and since there's not any plot/story to begin with in WF..... they could let this in just as well.

The other problem is game wise..... more as in, performance. The performance in WF is already bad (though the multi rendering option at least seems to help now), i don't know how well they would manage to pull the extra work of a massive warfare with ally AIs. And the lag would probably become even more of a concern.

dedicated servers my friend, this would solve so many problems, the DE would turn into gods...........................(inb4 kratos coming, look mortal)

[Koekr]

I suggest doing what WoW did with raids, where you had 10mans, but you also had 25mans, and you could do them on heroic.

So instead of doing a boss 40 times to get the gear with a 5% drop rate or something, you can do a much harder (damage wouldn't be increased significantly) and more intricate version of the boss that is guaranteed to drop a part that you don't already have.

 

Another lesson to take away from the older days of WoW is that one or several endgame-like boss/bosses that only 1% of players can actually get through (mechanic wise) isn't a bad thing, for one it adds a sense of mystery and a goal to strive for, and two it adds replay value.

 

So new ultra-difficult bosses and optional much-harder versions of old bosses are probably necessary here.

[r3dzer0]

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I agree, big bad bosses that have mechanics that are hard to get through to test your fluidity and harmony with your frame pushing you to your limits.  THough i do not want to see 10-25 man tenno squads having to fight some random huge monster. 

 

I was thinking that possibly we leave the current bosses where they are how they are.  this would be considered a first encounter(and will allow you to farm your frames), where they are unable to deter/overcome you.  Then you fight them in a "raid" in which they have been waiting for you and powering up to rip your tenno flesh from your warframe.  The latter will allow you to gain special additions to your frame that would increase its effectiveness, though what those things could be i have no idea.  there's been ideas floating around the forum with the idea that since they're making helmets purely cosmetic, they should add a slot to put in a mod that gives buff/debuff.  Expanding on this idea you could get more slots( These do not level and they are not in any way tied to your mod score) for chest and arms, possibly increasing vit or melee damage , stability etc( really a range of options) and they could allow each player to make their specific frame unique to them

 

Example:  Saryn has 3 mod slots- Head, Chest, Arms-  In the head she applies a chip(or mod) that increases movement speed with reduction to health, Armor chip into chest to increase armor and reduce energy, and a stability control to decrease recoil at the cost of melee damage.

 

that's for another time tho.  The idea however is that you could obtain these *chips* as a reward for vanquishing higher level content and it would allow you to continue to pursue that content continually until you eventually catch em all so to speak.

[Eisvogel]

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i would definitely get on board with that.... the main problem is that Warframe is yet to grasp the concept of good and challenging mechanics, vs spam skills and bullet sponges.

 

But yeah, there SHOULD be aim for things accessible to the %s you are talking about.... it's the point and purpose of any game, to have something to aim for

[JustDont]

Great thread here.

 

I too would say that Warframe already needs quite a lot of fixes and rebalancing (instead of new guns). So far, over the course of many updates, DE didn't release anything worthy of notice that wouldn't be categorized as "more grind". Conclave doesn't count, as PvP is not the main scope of this game.

 

As for PvE content, it becomes stale incredibly quickly (since, obviously, DE can't create new content with the same speed as players burn through it).

The most necessary task at the moment, I would say, is to make regular missions interesting again. DE tried that with reworking those raids/captures/etc, but only the mission details rework isn't going to solve all the problems. Another stepping stone would be redesigned armor system (but I can't comment on it until I see it).

 

But there must be more: AI upgrade, clear-cut enemy roles that pose different threats, power balance rework (I'm speaking about 4-spamming, which WILL trivialize both better AI and new enemies -- why bother if you can press a button to kill them all). The last one is actually the most important, and it is a huge undertaking DE have to do one day, if they want the game to succeed.

[Doomsong]

I would start with adding more stalker type mob. Each faction should have its own random enemy tied to its set. They should be hard and have higer chance to appear with more players. Infested could have infected tenno. Greenir maybe some big bad commando with jetpack. Corpus maybe a tech with a big nasty laser minigun.

[KARMA2605]

I would start with adding more stalker type mob. Each faction should have its own random enemy tied to its set. They should be hard and have higer chance to appear with more players. Infested could have infected tenno. Greenir maybe some big bad commando with jetpack. Corpus maybe a tech with a big nasty laser minigun.

 

DE has talked about putting in VIP type units, and I'm pretty sure the specific language was something like "...and they could provide buffs to their allied units around them" or something.  I think it was briefly mentioned in Livestream 13 (maybe 12, but definitely not 14).  Now if these VIP units had more abilities, or upgraded AI then they could be a challenge - imagine Capture Missions now requiring the defeat of a mini-boss?  Nice, right?  Just as long as they aren't the typical bullet spounges we're used to seeing, I'm all for it.