R3Leaz's (Possibly Final) Feedback.

[Bakercompany86]

Take for example these other games that do very well in PvP and the main source of income comes from cosmetic items: Dota 2, Team Fortress 2. Very succesful games with huge incomes. And a gigantic playerbase.

 

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

 

Don't forget Planetside 2.

While cosmetic items probably aren't their main source of income, you can't buy anything for real life currency that you cannot also purchase with in game currency (minus cosmetic things that do not affect gameplay).

[LazyKnight]

Take for example these other games that do very well in PvP and the main source of income comes from cosmetic items: Dota 2, Team Fortress 2. Very succesful games with huge incomes. And a gigantic playerbase. Oh and both F2P.

 

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Those games do not have a PVE centric focus where the developers said it mainly a PVE game. PVP games require a championship level of balance and a total lack of gear progression. I am sorry but in order to get warframe to have PVE and PVP there are very few games they can copy at this stage without starting again from scratch because in order to get pvp to work they have very little reusable material.

[Bakercompany86]

Those games do not have a PVE centric focus where the developers said it mainly a PVE game. PVP games require a championship level of balance and a total lack of gear progression. I am sorry but in order to get warframe to have PVE and PVP there are very few games they can copy at this stage without starting again from scratch because in order to get pvp to work they have very little reusable material.

 

PvP unto itself is infinitely replayable.  As long as the players are having fun and enjoying the competition, they will continue to play.  I mean look at Battlefield, it really only has 3 different game modes (Rush, Conquest, Deathmatch).  But because of the competition and continuous challenge, people will play it forever and keep buying the sequels.

However in THIS game, PvP would have to be a creature completely separate from PvE.  Different frames (I still love the light/med/heavy idea) with a few different loadouts to choose from.  People would play it...I know I would.

 

That way the PvE would never have to be balanced around PvP, and the awesome movement mechanics of this game could be appreciated in a PvP atmosphere (something that would be a waste not to do, IMO).

 

Having said that, this is definitely a PvE game so far.  I also have a huge problem with shooters that adopt almost RPG like progression models.  The reward from playing a shooter is based on your accuracy, tactic, and choice of proper tools for the job.  This game doesn't really do that, and to me the gameplay gets a bit stale because of it.  I'm not saying you couldn't do both vertical and horizontal.  But in a shooter, having a gun that is effective against a unit one mission, and useless against THE EXACT SAME UNIT in another mission to me, sucks.  So no matter how skilled I am, how accurate my fire, or sound my tactic, because I didn't grind enough of a boost all of that is ineffective.

[Cyrosage]

There are some people on here are fiercely defensive of all aspects of this game, good or bad.  Even if it might benefit Warframe and the playerbase as a whole in the long run.

 

Then there are others who feel that due to their time invested into a Beta that DE owes them something, and don't want anything changed because of the time they've invested.  It's like this is their current fix of a drug or something.

There are also others who just don't appreciate opinions asserted as fact, as I already pointed out. 

[LazyKnight]

 

What I would do is make a mode called arena for pvp and make it so there were predefine balanced warfames to chose from(Loki, Excalibur and Rhino) balance the skills of the frames into PVP variants with CD on the skills. With weapon I would make 1 of each type with the weapon have a predefined damage with the only thing adjustable are things like scopes options or CC options limited to one slot. There are old games that just had arena with characters that looked the same as the PVE ones but there was no gear to obtain.

 

There are plenty of ways to do PVP with the art the game has but there are very few ways to let people PVP with the gear they got in PVE without it turning into a mess like Aion. 

[Bakercompany86]

There are also others who just don't appreciate opinions asserted as fact, as I already pointed out. 

 

Was not referring to you.

 

Although others have claimed that people are asserting their opinion as fact when they were actually stating their opinion.  I think some just jump the gun a bit and get defensive too quickly.

 

Did the OP make claims to fact that were his opinion?  Let me go re-read his post.

[Inez]

PvP unto itself is infinitely replayable.  As long as the players are having fun and enjoying the competition, they will continue to play.  I mean look at Battlefield, it really only has 3 different game modes (Rush, Conquest, Deathmatch).  But because of the competition and continuous challenge, people will play it forever and keep buying the sequels.

However in THIS game, PvP would have to be a creature completely separate from PvE.  Different frames (I still love the light/med/heavy idea) with a few different loadouts to choose from.  People would play it...I know I would.

 

That way the PvE would never have to be balanced around PvP, and the awesome movement mechanics of this game could be appreciated in a PvP atmosphere (something that would be a waste not to do, IMO).

 

Having said that, this is definitely a PvE game so far.  I also have a huge problem with shooters that adopt almost RPG like progression models.  The reward from playing a shooter is based on your accuracy, tactic, and choice of proper tools for the job.  This game doesn't really do that, and to me the gameplay gets a bit stale because of it.  I'm not saying you couldn't do both vertical and horizontal.  But in a shooter, having a gun that is effective against a unit one mission, and useless against THE EXACT SAME UNIT in another mission to me, sucks.  So no matter how skilled I am, how accurate my fire, or sound my tactic, because I didn't grind enough of a boost all of that is ineffective.

You're playing the wrong game then.

There are only about 78578348 other shooters out there, many of which are f2p.

Warframe is very unique. I understand that uniqueness and originality bug a lot of people, but it has made Warframe very successful.

In all your posts you keep talking about skill. If you were interested in a skill based shooter there's only about a million of them out there. And it would be a PvP shooter not PvE. Talking about your strategy, tactics and skill in a PvE shooter is just weird. If you want a real challenge, challenge other people. Not AI. I'd personally recommend Rising Storm/Red Orchestra 2.

Personally, I think PVP in Warframe could be awesome, but DE is self-publishing and has limited resources. I'd much rather them focus on what makes them unique and what has made them so successful thus far.

[Cyrosage]

Was not referring to you.

 

Although others have claimed that people are asserting their opinion as fact when they were actually stating their opinion.  I think some just jump the gun a bit and get defensive too quickly.

 

Did the OP make claims to fact that were his opinion?  Let me go re-read his post.

Didn't mean that aggressively. He and a couple others were asserting that PvP would make the game better while they constantly put down the main game. I can't even take this thread seriously with Warframe being compared to Dota and how it makes money. I must bow to the fact these guys know what will make warframe a successful game. 

[Bakercompany86]

You're playing the wrong game then.

There are only about 78578348 other shooters out there, many of which are f2p.

Warframe is very unique. I understand that uniqueness and originality bug a lot of people, but it has made Warframe very successful.

In all your posts you keep talking about skill. If you were interested in a skill based shooter there's only about a million of them out there. And it would be a PvP shooter not PvE. Talking about your strategy, tactics and skill in a PvE shooter is just weird. If you want a real challenge, challenge other people. Not AI. I'd personally recommend Rising Storm/Red Orchestra 2.

Personally, I think PVP in Warframe could be awesome, but DE is self-publishing and has limited resources. I'd much rather them focus on what makes them unique and what has made them so successful thus far.

 

And this you have responses like this which are completely counter productive and accomplish nothing =\

[basilioss]

+1 to Cryosage. I strongly agree with all of your posts. 

[Bakercompany86]

Didn't mean that aggressively. He and a couple others were asserting that PvP would make the game better while they constantly put down the main game. I can't even take this thread seriously with Warframe being compared to Dota and how it makes money. I must bow to the fact these guys know what will make warframe a successful game. 

 

Well as far as Dota and stuff like that, perhaps he's just merely referencing a successful business model.  Honestly calling Dota and LoL successful is an understatement.

 

My problems with PvE in this game revolve around it's progression system and constant reuse of enemies with mere stat boosts.  To me that just isn't fun.  But it's my opinion, not everyone elses.

 

 

I don't know his motives for suggesting PvP.  I have to assume he's aiming to accomplish the same thing I think of when I consider adding PvP to Warframe.

 

PvP offers endless replayability even once things are maxed out due to stat chasers and general competitors.

 

The PvE in this game has an end, and when players reach that end they will quit.  And the end in this progression system may come quicker for some than others, depending on how quickly they get burnt out from the grind and EHP scaling of the exact same enemies.

 

I do appreciate calm retorts and sensible debate.  Thank you for that =)

 

 

EDIT:  Forgot to add.  If you want an example of PvE that is completely horizontal and endlessly replayable, Gears of War Horde Mode takes the cake.  People still play it today almost 5 years later just for the sheer challenge and fun of it.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[Cyrosage]

The game does need work but they're still working on it. If DE pushed out content updates and not hot fixes, I'd leave the game. The current system is not broken but it is not ideal either. It crudely works but it isn't set in stone. 

 

A majority of this thread was very adult like. Maybe not so much by the "refute all the things" guy but overall articulated. I agree to disagree on DE priorities and don't care about pvp. I take issue with suggesting pvp be added because you think the core game isn't fun means you have unrealistic expectations or you're playing the wrong game if you joined hoping it would evolve to pvp based off what you have seen in beta.. 

 

I realize they're are some great pvp games. In Warframe, you can't take cover because the developers want fast pace. You can't use powers because they are OP. You can't use the current weapon and mod system without a complete overhaul. There are no vehicles or extra dynamics other than run/shoot/push4. At best, you could end up with some quake 3 true twitch gaming hosted by the players.. The game struggles with keeping 4 people connected already. And it has to accommodate casual players unlike the generally hardcore Dota crowd. If they find a way to pull it off, great. But don't act like pvp is the solution to dealing with a broken core. 

Edited August 13, 2013 by Cyrosage

[Cyrosage]

Good thread. Would post again. Thx Mr. BAKER and friends. 

[notlamprey]

This is a rare and lovely thread. Somehow, the discussion didn't devolve into "Two posters doing ego-wheelies."

 

     It's nice to see the idea of PvP packaged in a way that sounds like it could work. I still think that PvP is out of the question at the moment, both because of DE's stated intent and because other, more fundamental problems need to be fixed first.

 

     If you could go spelunking in the heads of DE's Team Leads, you could probably find To-Do Lists so long they'd make your hippocampus do a backflip.  A lot of great ideas and suggestions happened here, but we have to remember some of the industry realities DE is dealing with. The 24/7 News Cycle is an angry beast that must be fed. Players who love this game are chewing through content so much faster than DE can make it, and budget crunch is constantly threatening to keep DE locked in a vicious cycle of spending all their time just trying to secure funding.

 

     If money wasn't such a big factor, things might be going differently. As it is, I'm trying to cut DE as much slack as I can reasonably allow.

[Bakercompany86]

The game does need work but they're still working on it. If DE pushed out content updates and not hot fixes, I'd leave the game. The current system is not broken but it is not ideal either. It crudely works but it isn't set in stone. 

 

A majority of this thread was very adult like. Maybe not so much by the "refute all the things" guy but overall articulated. I agree to disagree on DE priorities and don't care about pvp. I take issue with suggesting pvp be added because you think the core game isn't fun means you have unrealistic expectations or you're playing the wrong game if you joined hoping it would evolve to pvp based off what you have seen in beta.. 

 

I realize they're are some great pvp games. In Warframe, you can't take cover because the developers want fast pace. You can't use powers because they are OP. You can't use the current weapon and mod system without a complete overhaul. There are no vehicles or extra dynamics other than run/shoot/push4. At best, you could end up with some quake 3 true twitch gaming hosted by the players.. The game struggles with keeping 4 people connected already. And it has to accommodate casual players unlike the generally hardcore Dota crowd. If they find a way to pull it off, great. But don't act like pvp is the solution to dealing with a broken core. 

 

As long as you understand my reasoning for suggesting isn't because I don't have fun in PvE.  It's merely to help this games longevity.  Which like you said, we have no idea about.  Nobody really knows what direction this game is going in to be honest.  Maybe even DE.

 

One things for sure, it's got one solid foundation to build on.  The mechanics and gameplay are awesome and smooth (with a few bugs we're helping them identify and work out).

 

 

One thing that I find interesting, is this game has two core principles that work against each other.

 

Clearly it was their intention of implementing stealth.  Or else we wouldn't have silent weapons and execution moves that can only be performed undetected.

 

On the other hand, we have a clearly defined run and gun/gunslinger vibe.  Meant for fast paced intense gameplay.

 

 

So what I think that boils down to, is we have a very unique game that hardly and standard conventions can be applied and everything must be a hybrid approach.  I'm excited to see where this ball lands.

 

Thanks for your input Cyrosage.

[Bakercompany86]

This is a rare and lovely thread. Somehow, the discussion didn't devolve into "Two posters doing ego-wheelies."

 

     It's nice to see the idea of PvP packaged in a way that sounds like it could work. I still think that PvP is out of the question at the moment, both because of DE's stated intent and because other, more fundamental problems need to be fixed first.

 

     If you could go spelunking in the heads of DE's Team Leads, you could probably find To-Do Lists so long they'd make your hippocampus do a backflip.  A lot of great ideas and suggestions happened here, but we have to remember some of the industry realities DE is dealing with. The 24/7 News Cycle is an angry beast that must be fed. Players who love this game are chewing through content so much faster than DE can make it, and budget crunch is constantly threatening to keep DE locked in a vicious cycle of spending all their time just trying to secure funding.

 

     If money wasn't such a big factor, things might be going differently. As it is, I'm trying to cut DE as much slack as I can reasonably allow.

 

In my dream world, I wish DE would hand select a group of community members to sit them down and just talk.  Or I just wish I could be a fly on the wall of their dev meetings.

 

I've heard directly from DE staff that they're addicted to these forums.  That really excites me.  I will say that DE has been very hands on with the community, and Rebecca has done a fantastic job communicating with us.  It's unlike anything I've experienced in the many forum communities I've been a part of.

 

 

I remember the trainwreck that was Brink.  We NEVER heard from that dev team.  Yet the community begged and begged to hear something, anything from them.  But not once during the most crucial phase did we ever hear a peep from them.  And thus Brink disappeared as another game that could have been.

 

 

So thank you DE and thank you Rebecca for communicating with us.  You'll never know how much that means to me.

[R3leaZ]

The game does need work but they're still working on it. If DE pushed out content updates and not hot fixes, I'd leave the game. The current system is not broken but it is not ideal either. It crudely works but it isn't set in stone. 

 

A majority of this thread was very adult like. Maybe not so much by the "refute all the things" guy but overall articulated. I agree to disagree on DE priorities and don't care about pvp. I take issue with suggesting pvp be added because you think the core game isn't fun means you have unrealistic expectations or you're playing the wrong game if you joined hoping it would evolve to pvp based off what you have seen in beta.. 

 

I realize they're are some great pvp games. In Warframe, you can't take cover because the developers want fast pace. You can't use powers because they are OP. You can't use the current weapon and mod system without a complete overhaul. There are no vehicles or extra dynamics other than run/shoot/push4. At best, you could end up with some quake 3 true twitch gaming hosted by the players.. The game struggles with keeping 4 people connected already. And it has to accommodate casual players unlike the generally hardcore Dota crowd. If they find a way to pull it off, great. But don't act like pvp is the solution to dealing with a broken core. 

 

Make no mistake. I like the core game. It's the way the game is heading that I dislike and how many mistakes DE are starting to make over and over. Bad communication, problems that have persisted for a long time, route of the power creep.

 

I had a lot of fun playing this game but I'm just an end-game who is getting bored eventually. Like I said I'd prefered if they fixed the old bugs this game still is having. Like UI locking up (both in-game and in menu), problems with old weapons that isn't even getting looked at. Longswords *cough*... I also said that PvP can wait, I'm pretty sure one of my posts said that. Also who says PvP cannot have powers because it's OP? Those classes would have their own powers balanced to PvP and adjusted to fit their class. No cover system isn't a problem at all. Tbh it would be a massive hindrance. I haven't played a third/first person shooter yet where cover is implemented in a good way (they often leave a small part of you still in the open and snipers love that)

 

I'd loved if you could use the current weapons in PvP since it would help with balance. Though the mod system should be a lot more limited in PvP. Having PvP only mods would help with that. No vehicles is fine since those aren't a necessity at all. The reason why the game struggles with keeping 4 players connected is due to the large amount of AI in the game. All the syncing, stupid pathfinding, damage registration, location registration take quite a lot of performance from the host. Add the fact that this game isn't optimized very well for multicore support and you get a lot of performance issues. AI is the main issue why performance goes down. That's why a dojo with 20+ people doesn't have much lag for the host while a party of 4 players in missions lags like hell due to the AI.

 

I'd have to agree that they really need to fix the core mechanics first. Like I said PvP can be implemented later on. It's just the way DE said that there will be almost no chance that large scale PvP will make an appearance in this game that gave me a bad taste in the mouth...

[R3leaZ]

Quite an interesting thread I found:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/94860-disappointment-in-warframe-and-thoughts-on-improving-long-wall-of-text-with-paragraphing/

 

Similar in subject.

[Bakercompany86]

Make no mistake. I like the core game. It's the way the game is heading that I dislike and how many mistakes DE are starting to make over and over. Bad communication, problems that have persisted for a long time, route of the power creep.

 

I had a lot of fun playing this game but I'm just an end-game who is getting bored eventually. Like I said I'd prefered if they fixed the old bugs this game still is having. Like UI locking up (both in-game and in menu), problems with old weapons that isn't even getting looked at. Longswords *cough*... I also said that PvP can wait, I'm pretty sure one of my posts said that. Also who says PvP cannot have powers because it's OP? Those classes would have their own powers balanced to PvP and adjusted to fit their class. No cover system isn't a problem at all. Tbh it would be a massive hindrance. I haven't played a third/first person shooter yet where cover is implemented in a good way (they often leave a small part of you still in the open and snipers love that)

 

I'd loved if you could use the current weapons in PvP since it would help with balance. Though the mod system should be a lot more limited in PvP. Having PvP only mods would help with that. No vehicles is fine since those aren't a necessity at all. The reason why the game struggles with keeping 4 players connected is due to the large amount of AI in the game. All the syncing, stupid pathfinding, damage registration, location registration take quite a lot of performance from the host. Add the fact that this game isn't optimized very well for multicore support and you get a lot of performance issues. AI is the main issue why performance goes down. That's why a dojo with 20+ people doesn't have much lag for the host while a party of 4 players in missions lags like hell due to the AI.

 

I'd have to agree that they really need to fix the core mechanics first. Like I said PvP can be implemented later on. It's just the way DE said that there will be almost no chance that large scale PvP will make an appearance in this game that gave me a bad taste in the mouth...

 

Strange part to me is that they had a really good system in place, and decided to dump this massive power creep vomit all over it.  All of the weapons at their base are excellent and balanced.  Once you start upping damage by 300% or more all hell breaks loose.  And that was done to compensate for the bloated enemies.  I guess it was a quick fix to implement a sense of progression, albeit it's a false sense of progression.  Raising damage to match enemy EHP isn't really progress, just grinding.

 

I'd much rather our damage increase in tiny amounts, if not at all.  And instead be faced with real challenge, scaling AI, and a vast variety of units.  Phobos proves that they can implement a ton of new great units to the mix.

 

 

 

EDIT:  That post you linked is brilliant...simply brilliant.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Bakercompany86

[R3leaZ]

Strange part to me is that they had a really good system in place, and decided to dump this massive power creep vomit all over it.  All of the weapons at their base are excellent and balanced.  Once you start upping damage by 300% or more all hell breaks loose.  And that was done to compensate for the bloated enemies.  I guess it was a quick fix to implement a sense of progression, albeit it's a false sense of progression.  Raising damage to match enemy EHP isn't really progress, just grinding.

 

I'd much rather our damage increase in tiny amounts, if not at all.  And instead be faced with real challenge, scaling AI, and a vast variety of units.  Phobos proves that they can implement a ton of new great units to the mix.

 

I really liked the new units. Especially the Hellion ^^ AI seemed quite decent with exception of it flying through solid rocks rofl. Though it was a step in the good direction. An enemy that actually was fun to fight against and had different mechanics.

 

Destroying the jetpack for them to lose mobility, if they die while using the jetpack it goes full re**** (in a good way xD). Also you would need to prevent them from flying up because that would enable their big guns.

 

The Skates at first gave me shivers down my spine xD. Seems they are quite buggy atm though. Their dead corpse has a very messed up hit registration and it also messes a lot with the camera if you stand close to them like the new ancients used to do. Though I like how they have massive resistance when below ground and are extremely weak when coming up. They could have been made scarier imo. I kind of liked them scarier. Eventhough I'm a scaredy cat.

 

I liked that Eviscerators made a comeback. They have some massive damage output though when their blades hit you xD

 

EDIT: I'm getting some sleep once again. These forums are bad for my health rofl. (It's freaking 4AM xD)

Edited August 14, 2013 by R3leaZ

[kill3r_furby]

Long story short, there are alot of opinions being thrown around under the moniker of "fact." One cannot say what Digital Extremes is doing right or wrong without first evaluating whether it is making them money. If PvP were profitable to them, then they would include it. If they think it's risky (which Steve has said before in one of the livestreams), then they won't.

 

And alot of you seem to be confusing T3 Defense missions with "Endgame." Defense Missions are FARMING for "Endgame." What they say will be proper endgame? Nobody knows. One thing is certain, they have yet to work up to that. They're more concerned with easing new players into the game than adding new systems for the vets to frolick around in. They are approaching their game design from the proper point of view: expand and fix, expand and fix. With every big update for every game, S#&$ always gets broken. And it (usually *ahemChivalry*) gets fixed. Fact of the matter is, what we think of as "fixed" and what devs think of as "fixed" are typically worlds apart. We say "OPplznerf," they say "Ffs we just fixed the fatal crash related to ___!"

 

Oh, and my last topic, while I'm still in my ranting mood. Since when does the "balance" of a weapon in a (so far) STRICTLY PvE game mean anything? Supra too powered with endgame mods? "OPplznerf." How about stop f*cking playing Mercury and go back to Eris. Go solo Kril or something. That weapon/frame you've sunk hours into does not feel the same way to someone just picking it up. To them, it feels clunky, slow, and rightfully underpowered. Let the power creeping stay with those games that DON'T have a progression system.