The Energy System - Fundamentally Flawed

[LtZefar]

I think you might not understand what people are proposing. Nobody is proposing a 60-second cooldown on anything.

Also, cooldowns already exist in this game. Maybe you just didn't notice them.

(1) Power In Use: It's just a Cooldown with a duration based on the length of the ability's effects. Ask someone who's used Nyx for a while. Continuity will make Chaos last longer, but you can't use it again until the effect is no longer applied to anything. Either wait it out, or kill all the enemies it touched.

Bonus points here, because an explicit cooldown system could do away with this annoying implicit cooldown.

(2) Running for Gumballs: If you've ever run out of energy and had to go pick up some orbs, that was a cooldown. You didn't feel it because you brain was chasing a cookie, but it was still there.

 

I have noticed the cool downs but for Rhino that one only applies if there is anyone that survived the stomp. So it's till the enemy dies or it runs out. That's about the highest amount of time a cool down should be on. It doesn't need more than that.

Also a lot of people DO seems to suggest cool downs for skills.

 

If they want to have some sort of charge system in place I'd have to throw in the other skills I don't use which are completely useless later on and I'd be forced to spam those to get the ulti which is one of the two I actually want to use.

 

If they add in a system where you have to charge up your energy by killing I'd just use my most powerful weapon and kill steal everyone I can.

 

If it gets to the point where I can only use a few skills I might just not bother with the ulti and install cards that buff my warframe instead.

 

Or I could just use Acrid and instant kill almost anything I want. 

 

The Blue orbs might act as a cool down but I can stand near 4 of them and use my ulti and have another one ready for the next wave. Not to mention it doesn't take long to find them in a Mobile defense mission or a defense mission.  That is why that doesn't bother me. Then we have this where you're actively needing one and there ain't one around it adds some tension to it. I also only got myself to blame for using up all the energy.

 

So for me the Energy system does not need to be changed. I like the ability to use my skills a lot and if there is extra Energy to go around I can have more fun than usual.

 

I also like how the topic starter went "I'm not suggesting the removal of Energy orbs" Bit down in the post. "The removal of energy orbs.". 

[XDeathCoreX]

This all sounds like Nightmare mode. Make it exclusive to nightmare and removed added damage to frames and energy drain and replace it with this system.

[Azure_Kytia]

>Kill enemies
>Build up kinetic energy. Gun kills give a smaller amount of energy than close up Melee kills.

>Magic process converts kinetic into skill energy

    >Cast Skill. Skill # determines how much skill energy is used. #1 - 25% #4 - 100%

 

Repeat process to regain energy.

 

Streamline decreases the energy required, as usual

Flow increases the maximum energy allowed to be stored at once

 

Enemies killed from skills do not provide energy, or energy at a flat, lower than normal rate.

 

- Action based cooldown/regen

- Encourages weapon usage

- Disincentivises dawdling

- Other stuff.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[Bakercompany86]

>Kill enemies

>Build up kinetic energy. Gun kills give a smaller amount of energy than close up Melee kills.

>Magic process converts kinetic into skill energy

    >Cast Skill. Skill # determines how much skill energy is used. #1 - 25% #4 - 100%

 

Repeat process to regain energy.

 

Streamline decreases the energy required, as usual

Flow increases the maximum energy allowed to be stored at once

 

Enemies killed from skills do not provide energy, or energy at a flat, lower than normal rate.

 

- Action based cooldown/regen

- Encourages weapon usage

- Disincentivises dawdling

- Other stuff.

 

Encourages kill stealing, unfortunately.

[Azure_Kytia]

Which is already what Ultimates do anyway, so Killstealing is a moot point. Such a system could also be reinforced with a system which gives energy to the player that dealt the most damage to the enemy. Any kill stealing done "as a result" of that would likely have happened already.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[Bakercompany86]

Which is already what Ultimates do anyway, so Killstealing is a moot point.

 

But ultimates would be the result of kill stealing, thus more kill stealing.

 

So you're doubling down on kill stealing effectively.

 

Not my theory, but I had an on-hit energy regen idea not too long ago and everyone brought up that point.

 

This is why we settled on the heat meter, which had mostly pros and very few cons that we could think of.

 

Check out sgghostrider's fleshed out idea on page 4:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/90792-energy-system-discussion/page-4

[LtZefar]

>Kill enemies

>Build up kinetic energy. Gun kills give a smaller amount of energy than close up Melee kills.

>Magic process converts kinetic into skill energy

    >Cast Skill. Skill # determines how much skill energy is used. #1 - 25% #4 - 100%

 

Repeat process to regain energy.

 

Streamline decreases the energy required, as usual

Flow increases the maximum energy allowed to be stored at once

 

Enemies killed from skills do not provide energy, or energy at a flat, lower than normal rate.

 

- Action based cooldown/regen

- Encourages weapon usage

- Disincentivises dawdling

- Other stuff.

I use my weapon more than any other skills in the game. Rhino which I used the most has only 6k kills on the class. Where as my Hek has 14k. Kunai is up in 7.9k, Despair around 4.5k and Boar is at 7k. All of those weapons are higher than Rhino which I used the most. Now I plenty of other weapons with over 1-2k kills easily. Most of my Warframe never breaks the 1k barrier. Only a few does.

 

Weapons are used far far more than skills are. We don't need to put more weight on them because variation is a good thing. Also your idea will most likely only make people use skills that do not kill enemies. For example with Vauban you want to keep that gravity field up. So using any damage skills would be useless.

 

Same goes for other Warframes. 

 

Oh and I got 83k total kills too. Rhino doesn't take up much of that.

Edited August 16, 2013 by LtZefar

[XDeathCoreX]

Encourages kill stealing, unfortunately.

Kill stealing = XP for everything you have at the same time and more XP. Live with it., it's for your own good. You'll thank the devs later with your maxed out gear.

 

For every Molecular explosion, you are 1 step closer to leveling everything to next level.

[Bakercompany86]

Kill stealing = XP for everything you have at the same time and more XP. Live with it., it's for your own good. You'll thank the devs later with your maxed out gear.

 

For every Molecular explosion, you are 1 step closer to leveling everything to next level.

 

 

I'm not saying it's a huge issue.  We all just blast our merry way through to the end.

 

But if someone is killing a lot faster than you, you will be starved for energy.

 

 

Where as something like a heat meter benefits everyone, with very little downside.  Cuts down on spam too.

[litlit]

I think you might not understand what people are proposing. Nobody is proposing a 60-second cooldown on anything.

Also, cooldowns already exist in this game. Maybe you just didn't notice them.

(1) Power In Use: It's just a Cooldown with a duration based on the length of the ability's effects. Ask someone who's used Nyx for a while. Continuity will make Chaos last longer, but you can't use it again until the effect is no longer applied to anything. Either wait it out, or kill all the enemies it touched.

Bonus points here, because an explicit cooldown system could do away with this annoying implicit cooldown.

(2) Running for Gumballs: If you've ever run out of energy and had to go pick up some orbs, that was a cooldown. You didn't feel it because you brain was chasing a cookie, but it was still there.

 

I don't remember which thread it was (apologies for not giving credit), but someone proposed that the energy system would remain in place, with a lower frequency of energy orb drops.

 

Abilities 1-3 would cost energy like normal, while ability 4 would require you to use the other abilities (and maybe some other stuff) to fill up an "ultimate" bar.

 

The main thing I liked about this idea would be that it would force DE to really understand not only how they wanted each individual Warframe to play, but how the players themselves are using them. For example, Nyx, Vauban, and Frost are all about pressing 3 -- no one really cares about the 4th ability on any of these frames, and for good reason. As a collective, we players have decided that Frost is for group defense, Vauban is for area denial, and Nyx is for scaling crowd control.

 

The other main benefit to this system, IMO, is that this mechanic has the potential to create a truly unique playstyle for each Warframe. Vauban and Frost are all about pressing 3 -- different things happen, but in terms of player experience, it's pretty much the same thing. The same principal applies to all of the Warframes. Rhino, Mag, Saryn, Nova, Ember -- all of these frames are about pressing 4. The effects and the effectiveness differ, but the results are essentially the same in terms of experience. (The only exception is Volt, because his damaging abilities are so useless that the only time he's really used is when high-rank players want to make the Lanka, Flux Rifle, or Supra hitscan weapons with Electric Shield. Ironically, despite supposedly being an "alternative to gunplay", Volt is unique in that he is actually the frame most conducive to high-powered gunplay.)

 

If using an ultimate ability requires players first to use their frames in a specific way (or a specific set of ways), however, then the experience of playing different frames can truly be different.

 

[Edit]:

 

Regardless of whether anyone at DE cares about these ideas, the fact remains that if energy and abilities remain the way they are right now, the game will remain impossible to balance. Players who have spent enough time farming have the mods necessary cause their Warframe abilities to instantly kill low-level enemies and to permanently disable high-level enemies until they can be killed with weapons. Not only is it impossible to adjust difficulty for players who are effectively invulnerable, it's also unfair to even try -- it's unfair to those players who have not spent the dozens of hours necessary to farm and max all of these mods.

 

There needs to be some mechanism in place that can stop even highly-farmed players from being effectively invulnerable (at least in mid-high level content), while not making the game overly difficult for newer players.

Edited August 16, 2013 by litlir

[Bakercompany86]

 

I don't remember which thread it was (apologies for not giving credit), but someone proposed that the energy system would remain in place, with a lower frequency of energy orb drops.

 

Abilities 1-3 would cost energy like normal, while ability 4 would require you to use the other abilities (and maybe some other stuff) to fill up an "ultimate" bar.

 

The main thing I liked about this idea would be that it would force DE to really understand not only how they wanted each individual Warframe to play, but how the players themselves are using them. For example, Nyx, Vauban, and Frost are all about pressing 3 -- no one really cares about the 4th ability on any of these frames, and for good reason. As a collective, we players have decided that Frost is for group defense, Vauban is for area denial, and Nyx is for scaling crowd control.

 

The other main benefit to this system, IMO, is that this mechanic has the potential to create a truly unique playstyle for each Warframe. Vauban and Frost are all about pressing 3 -- different things happen, but in terms of player experience, it's pretty much the same thing. The same principal applies to all of the Warframes. Rhino, Mag, Saryn, Nova, Ember -- all of these frames are about pressing 4. The effects and the effectiveness differ, but the results are essentially the same in terms of experience.

 

If using an ultimate ability requires players first to use their frames in a specific way (or a specific set of ways), however, then the experience of playing different frames can truly be different.

 

The ultimate meter sounds cool, but I don't think it would fit Warframe well.

 

 

I think we'd see players hovering around dropped energy orbs to burn their abilities to fill up the super meter.  Thus stopping the fast paced gameplay, which is why DE got rid of the cooldown system in the first place.

 

Plus how would that apply to someone like a Loki, who goes invisible for 30 seconds and most likely doesn't use another ability during that time?

[jibbahjabbah]

Yay restrictions!

[litlit]

The ultimate meter sounds cool, but I don't think it would fit Warframe well.

 

 

I think we'd see players hovering around dropped energy orbs to burn their abilities to fill up the super meter.  Thus stopping the fast paced gameplay, which is why DE got rid of the cooldown system in the first place.

 

Plus how would that apply to someone like a Loki, who goes invisible for 30 seconds and most likely doesn't use another ability during that time?

 

Well, we already see players hovering around dropped energy orbs. Play any kind of mission at all. When people aren't grinding weapon XP, they press 4 to kill everything, then pick up enough energy to do it again and move on.

 

As you've probably noticed, I completely forgot about Loki in that post. Still, this goes back to what I said about DE being forced to understand both how they want a frame to play and how players are actually using it. Loki would have to be changed in a way that makes his other abilities worth using -- maybe not always, but enough so that players can routinely find a way to be useful in all mission types. Loki and Excalibur are the two frames I have never played, so I don't have any specific suggestions for changes to his abilities. But surely there's a way to make his abilities less niche and more useful in commonly-encountered situations. For one thing, doing melee damage while invisible could give points towards the "ultimate" gauge (though again, there would have to be something done to make Radial Disarm useful outside of high-level defense).

Edited August 16, 2013 by litlir

[LtZefar]

 

Regardless of whether anyone at DE cares about these ideas, the fact remains that if energy and abilities remain the way they are right now, the game will remain impossible to balance. Players who have spent enough time farming have the mods necessary cause their Warframe abilities to instantly kill low-level enemies and to permanently disable high-level enemies until they can be killed with weapons. Not only is it impossible to adjust difficulty for players who are effectively invulnerable, it's also unfair to even try -- it's unfair to those players who have not spent the dozens of hours necessary to farm and max all of these mods.

 

There needs to be some mechanism in place that can stop even highly-farmed players from being effectively invulnerable (at least in mid-high level content), while not making the game overly difficult for newer players.

 

You don't need to do that much to max skill mods and to get high damage on them. For example, Rhino, Saryn, Nova and Embers ulti are all devastating on low level. Even without skills that increase range on them. Nova being the most powerful one out of those.

 

I leveled up my Ulti skill with random mods instead of Fusion cores because they only have 3 levels. You get the ulti skill when you make the Warframe so the only one you won't have is the first one. Also because of Warframe having polarity slots for skills you can easily fit in the most powerful one.

 

So it's not like we got to the last level and found these skills. We get them when we create the Warframe. We can usually max it out rather quickly without a problem and so should most other people be able to do. You can use shield mods or Sentinel mods to upgrade it with. It doesn't take that many.

 

Now if I where to go to lower levels with my Flux rifle I can instantly wipe out a horde of monsters by just dragging the mouse from left to right once or twice. If I had weapons that fired bullets I'd wipe them out with a single shot each.

 

Skills just make it go quicker and these enemies poses no threat to us to begin with. You can not make the enemies more dangerous to high level targets when we have a high shield to negate any damage they do, our weapons will pulverize them on sight and we can just hide for a moment for our shield to get back if it ever goes away.

[litlit]

True, once you farm (or buy) a Warframe, you get its damage abilities. Many start out quite powerful and it isn't difficult to max them out even as a new player.

 

However, doing high level content is a different story. Enemies quickly scale to the point where damage-dealing abilities don't cut it anymore, and the game becomes all about crowd control -- Chaos, Stomp, Bastille, Snowglobe, etc. In these cases, simply having the ability maxed won't cut it anymore. You need the right aura (Energy Siphon). You need Stretch, Constitution, Continuity, Flow, and Streamline (preferably all maxed, and sometimes you'll want Focus too).

 

On top of that, since damage from abilities becomes less important, the power of your weapons is emphasized instead. After all, you're hitting Stomp to hold the enemy still so you can shoot them to death before they get into the Snowglobe. You need armor ignoring weapons. You need potatoes and formas for those weapons. And most of all, you need powerful mods -- Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, No Return, Serration, Split Chamber, Piercing Hit -- preferably all maxed out.

 

All of this takes a lot of time to farm, maybe even some platinum.

 

It isn't that players who have spent a lot of time farming shouldn't be stronger than those who haven't. The problem is that players with all of the stuff I listed above are effectively invulnerable even at very high level content. Without a major overhaul, it is impossible to make the game more difficult for these players, because they have the frames and the mods to negate any challenge (Snowglobe for immunity to ranged damage, Bastille to permanently stun all enemies who get close).

 

On the flip side, players who have not spent the time to farm everything I listed above are far more vulnerable to increases in difficulty. They do not have the same ability to easily negate any challenge, so in Tower 3 Defense missions, for example, these players will have much more difficulty than a group of players who can shrug and say "oh I guess we'll make it a snoozefest. we'll bring Frost and Vauban to keep us safe while the Nova and Banshee use their damage multiplier debuff to make our maxed-out armor ignoring weapons more efficient".

 

Now, you are correct that the difficulty can be too easy even at low levels. But that's exactly my point: we have a dichotomy of difficulty, where things are either "very difficult" or "trivially easy". When you have a starter frame and starter weapons, just getting through the first 4-5 planets is difficult. When you can max Crush and Radial Javelin (or get a frame with similar room-clearing skills), content aside from Defense and Mobile Defense becomes incredibly easy. When you get a Frost or Vauban, Defense and Mobile Defense missions go from being difficult to being super easy.

 

Again, there's nothing inherently wrong with progression. But players should not be able to become so strong that they can negate any challenge the game's mechanics can provide.

Edited August 16, 2013 by litlir

[ThePresident777]

I've seen all this before and it doesn't change anything.  There will always be easy mode and there will always be curmudgeons.  At least Warframe is not Mass Effect 3.

[XDeathCoreX]

I've seen all this before and it doesn't change anything.  There will always be easy mode and there will always be curmudgeons.  At least Warframe is not Mass Effect 3.

This is why this system should replace the energy drain in nightmare mode and they should make that mode even more enticing. There should always be options.