Rejuvenation Buff Petition

[Jamescell]

Rhino+The suggested improvement+Armor+Health=Useful

[Jamescell]

@Saenol, give a reason if you want to disagree. You don't say why. Also, vitality is a waste of space by itself.

[Brimir]

I've made a topic on this subject before.

 

In my humble opinion it should be buffed in two ways:

 

a. Increase the max heal rate to a solid 1.0 rather than a weird 0.8

 

b. Change it to work on %

 

EDIT: Even at max rank (1% health/sec) it would still take you over a minute to regenerate all your health. I don't see how that is overpowered.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Brimir

[memeth]

hmmm i have my personal doubts about the utility of Rejuvenation..

 

almost everything is ineffective around Nightmare-world. somehow both Rejuvenation and Energy Siphon are pretty useless when your HP and/or Energy decrease - phewphew is the solution. i mind Nightmares because, in my own opinion, these are the best missions where you can test your player skills for real. anyway all this is just a thought of mines.

 

at least for me it's difficult to establish the importance of any Aura with no specific context/situation/mission.

ie: when you mount Energy Siphon only, it looks like "WTF recharging is so slow".

 

so far, interesting topic! you won +1 point of esteem from memeth.

Edited August 21, 2013 by memeth

[Liminal]

I agree with making it % based. The same should happen with health orbs. Having a lot of health shouldn't mean you need to wait longer (after all you made sacrifices for that increased number).

[-BELLUM-]

You got my vote dude, i hope DE see's this and makes it so.

Edited August 21, 2013 by -BELLUM-

[JerichoFayne]

Not to take anything away from Trinity's ability to tank or solo, but what would be the point of having a healer class if we can all regenerate health simply by sitting in a corner for 5 minutes?

[Brimir]

Not to take anything away from Trinity's ability to tank or solo, but what would be the point of having a healer class if we can all regenerate health simply by sitting in a corner for 5 minutes?

 

That she can do the same in, like, 3 seconds?          

[-BELLUM-]

That she can do the same in, like, 3 seconds?          

yep, lol

[Brimir]

Also, do it repeatedly as long as she has Energy.

 

So.

 

 

LÖL.

[Kobalt]

For OP it is direct health damage the delay occurs on, if your shields are up and it will not effect the delay.

Reasoning On Why % Rejuvenation Is Bad Wall Of Text!

Rejuvenation is a very hard mod to balance, harder than a lot of the people in this thread seem to understand! Percent based healing as high as 5% trivializes gameplay/health. In any system with both health and shields, if both act exactly the same then there is no point in having both. Shields are meant to act as a buffer for your health, not a buffer to more shields. If they brought rejuvenation up that high, it would introduce massive power creep.

This aside the difference in healing to certain frames would be too massive. Even on the lowest health frame with no vitality, it outperforms rejuvenation as it works now more than 10 fold at 5%. This does not account for high end of frames that reach around 5 times that much best case or the effects of armor. Best case armor makes a player's health worth more than 4 times it's value. A great example of this would be a base Mag vs. a Rhino. At 225 Mag would make 11.25 health per second her 33% damage mitigation makes her health worth about 1.5 times it's value or around 16.875 effective health per second. Best case Rhino has 885 health max and would heal for 44.25 health per second, and with his above 75% damage reduction from max armor is worth 4 times it's value. His effective healing would be 177 health per second. That value sores on Ember with the 91% damage reduction on Overheat alone!

The difference is too broad on a percent based system, because it then scales with both health and armor instead of just being more effective with armor. Some of you may not see this as a problem, but you have to take the complex balance of systems in warframe into account! In a build with rage in it, it becomes very simple for a user to outscale the gains from energy siphon just by taking damage. The aura at this point not only becomes a healing mechanism, but an energy creating tool performing the jobs of both at the same time. With streamline and this setup on a Rhino you need to lose exactly 90 HP to heave enough to cast iron skin! With the wrong adjustment this becomes perpetual or it allows rhino to gain back health fast enough to stomp, gaining all of the health it took to amass the energy for it before the stasis ends! A lot of warframes can pull this kind of setup off!

It kind of needs to be a flat number for these reasons and one that does not invalidate energy siphon when stacked in a rage centered group! It's real problem is that it only fits into the space of being useful in rage builds, even when buffed. It needs to do something valuable while your health is full ontop of a buff or it will be relegated to being an aura only people with specific builds use!

What if the aura healed 1.6-2 health per second at max rank and in place of the delay healed for half that if you have taken damage to health in the past 5 seconds? It wouldn't be perfect, but I think it would be a lot better. I still wish it had a point when your health was full though...Even something as small as increasing the chance for health orbs to drop by some chance or something like that!

 

Everything's useless compared to Energy Siphon.

 

Also lol at people who use Vitality. Redirection is where it's at.

Shields won't save you from poison and even outside that case, it is frame dependent. A rhino can have an effective health of 3,540 over his possible 1,290 shield strength. Edited August 21, 2013 by Kobalt

[Brimir]

The problem with Energy Siphon vs. Rejuvenation is obvious.

 

Health scales waaaay higher than Energy.

 

This makes Energy Siphon far more potent.

 

As such, Rejuvenation should scale much better by rank. Perhaps tenfolds so. Or just work on a percentage basis.

[Kobalt]

The problem with Energy Siphon vs. Rejuvenation is obvious.

 

Health scales waaaay higher than Energy.

 

This makes Energy Siphon far more potent.

 

As such, Rejuvenation should scale much better by rank. Perhaps tenfolds so. Or just work on a percentage basis.

Energy and health scaling are completely different, apples and oranges different. What you are talking about is the rate of fill. Health doesn't need to fill as fast as energy. You spend energy, it is meant to be consumed. Health loss [consumption] is meant to be avoided! Placing them on a similar scale of generation does not speak to this.

What makes Energy Siphon more potent is that you start with little energy and can spend it at will! As such, it's gains are always in effect. It counters energy orb drought and to some degree disruption. Energy Siphon also translates into your frame's offensive/defensive scaling...It buys damage, survivability and/or utility based on your skill set.

Health as a system has non of these things. You always start at full health. In a case where you perform well and avoid damage Rejuvenation grants you no benefits. When you are failing severely, it's delay prevents it from actually saving you. Once again meaning you see no benefits. When you are out of combat it's gains are barely noticeable, especially if you move at a steady enough pace and take damage regularly.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Kobalt

[Brimir]

The way I see it, some Warframes are supposed to be able to tank with Health rather than Shields.

 

That is why I believe Rejuvenation should get buffed.

 

The high Armour on FROST and RHINO, and the high Health on ASH, are essentally wasted currently.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Brimir

[Liminal]

The way I see it, some Warframes are supposed to be able to tank with Health rather than Shields.

 

That is why I believe Rejuvenation should get buffed.

 

The high Armour on FROST and RHINO, and the high Health on ASH, are essentally wasted currently.

Especially on Rhino, with Iron Skin. I usually run Rhino with no Vitality and no Steel Fiber. Shields and IS are enough.

Health and armor help define "tanky" frames, but they are very underused.

[Jamescell]

At Kobalt, you keep saying it's too op to do this, and how we don't get it, but what you do understand is that health is a utility pretty much never used (never used if you're a smart player) this would allow for a use with regeneration armor and health increase. People really don't have a problem dying, to your discomfort, toxic ancients don't spawn very often, and we get four revives a day, the people who actually have rejuvenation are more advanced than your average Tenno (for the most part) and more advanced players really don't worry about dying with the other quote en quote OP mods and builds. This may be op from a noob or isolated standpoint, but if you take into account any other mod in game worth using, this buff puts the ability right on par as a useful utility. Also, if you're swarmed by enemies (the most common way people die) and they're shooting or clawing you up, the aura would not be active, thus giving you no in combat tanking advantage.

[Brimir]

Well said, James. That's exactly it.

[Kobalt]

At Kobalt, you keep saying it's too op to do this, and how we don't get it, but what you do understand is that health is a utility pretty much never used (never used if you're a smart player) this would allow for a use with regeneration armor and health increase. People really don't have a problem dying, to your discomfort, toxic ancients don't spawn very often, and we get four revives a day, the people who actually have rejuvenation are more advanced than your average Tenno (for the most part) and more advanced players really don't worry about dying with the other quote en quote OP mods and builds. This may be op from a noob or isolated standpoint, but if you take into account any other mod in game worth using, this buff puts the ability right on par as a useful utility. Also, if you're swarmed by enemies (the most common way people die) and they're shooting or clawing you up, the aura would not be active, thus giving you no in combat tanking advantage.

Ok, let DE do it 5% HP per second rejuvenation. Watch the high end meta change to CC oriented squads quad stacking with rage! 20% HP her second after delay. People will run in face tank damage and then spam skills that will allow them to enter rejuv, never die while having infinite energy. Why bother dodging or playing conservatively when the dominant strategy is to happily eat bullets. At which point it will be obvious to everyone that rejuvenation is the only mod to take on mission, because used the right way it has now become energy siphon a thousand fold. With it's power it's silly to use a frame with weaker CC. We are now back where we started only rejuvenation is way too hard to top without rewriting the game's balance to include monster that intsa-kill you or making all other auras borderline broken.

It is my worry that a change this big will change the balance of the entire game.It is a point about which I am adamant!

Edited August 21, 2013 by Kobalt

[Brimir]

Ok, let DE do it 5% HP per second rejuvenation. Watch the high end meta change to CC oriented squads quad stacking with rage! 20% HP her second after delay. People will run in face tank damage and then spam skills that will allow them to enter rejuv, never die while having infinite energy. Why bother dodging or playing conservatively when the dominant strategy is to happily eat bullets. At which point it will be obvious to everyone that rejuvenation is the only mod to take on mission, because used the right way it has now become energy siphon a thousand fold. With it's power it's silly to use a frame with weaker CC. We are now back where we started only rejuvenation is way too hard to top without rewriting the game's balance to include monster that intsa-kill you or making all other auras borderline broken.

It is my worry that a change this big will change the balance of the entire game.It is a point about which I am adamant!

 

Where did you get 5% Health/second from? That is crazy, I'll agree with you there.

 

1. They should up it to 1 from 0.8 at max rank.

 

2. Make it %.

 

This gives you 1% health/sec at max rank.

[Depar]

the first petition i give my

 

[IcarusNine]

You don't have to avoid taking damage to your shield, so long as your shields don't break, which allows you to wade in and out of combat.

Health, on the other hand, is a more permanent way of storing damage you've taken, as it takes considerable time or luck to replenish (without a Trinity).  If you're tanky enough, you can still endure damage to your health, but you can't do it often.  I like health being a factor of attrition.  That doesn't mean I'm opposed to making Rejuvenation percentage based, I'm just opposed to making it FAST.

 

Unfortunately, this thread seems to be based on the idea that Rejuvenation should turn your health bar into a second, stronger layer of regenerating shields, which marginalizes the attrition aspect.

 

Some numbers:

Rank 5 Rejuvenation heals 0.8 health per second.  A 225 health frame would heal from 10% to 100% in about 250 seconds.

However, a maxed Vit&Vigor Saryn or Ash would take 1450 seconds.

A heal of 0.36% per second would heal any frame with any mods from 10% to 100% in 250 seconds.

A heal of 5% per second would do the same in only 20 seconds.

[Brimir]

Unfortunately, this thread seems to be based on the idea that Rejuvenation should turn your health bar into a second, stronger layer of regenerating shields, which marginalizes the attrition aspect.

 

That's how I feel the tankier 'frames were designed actually.

 

Armour only affects Health after all.

 

If Frost/Rhino were allowed to regen 1% Health/sec they would be able to play like how  I believe the designers intended them to.

 

Probably wouldn't be more effective than stacking Redirection though, but hey, variety is the spice of life.

[WARGAMES]

too many auras need buffs to just petition one aura, and I want all of them buffed to make people think twice about energy siphon...or ???

[TunaMayo]

whilst i agree with the idea of a rejuv buff.

 

I still read this as "A petition to make trinity even more useless"

[Brimir]

whilst i agree with the idea of a rejuv buff.

 

I still read this as "A petition to make trinity even more useless"

 

 

Then you're not thinking clearly enough.

 

Trinity can heal everyone to full Shields/Health every 3 seconds as long as she has the Energy for it.

 

If you change Rejuvenation to work on % it would take you 100 seconds, more than a minute and a half, to regen from 1% to 100% Health.