Constructive idea for "endgame" content.

[Laslo24]

Hello DE,

First of all thanks for the addition to higher lv lasting content in the game (Eidolons, last tier bounties and Elite Void Onslaught(EVO)) in recent time. I don't mean the Sortie with that since it is not very long lasting per day (this does not make it bad just not "lasting"). First off let me define "endgame content". As "endgame conten" i define content that is aimed for players that have achieved a certain degree of progress in the game, is challenging for them and offers a long time investment and reward. So this includes Eidolon fights (Arcane Grind+difficulty+team play+Focus Grind), EVO (Focus Grind+ "difficulty"+ "team play"). Important is here that it is rewarding continually and is not something you do and you are done with it (Onslaugt is excludet through the big amout of daily focus). Sorties are more of a late game content since they require stronger gear but are finshed very quickly per day. So what is my idear for "endgame content" ? Well scaling "rewards" for endless missions (Survival,Defence, Interception, etc.), but since i called this contstructive i will not rent about it, instead i will properly talk about the positives, negatives and how i think they should be included into the game.

I think fist we should be talking about the actual rewards that this is aimed at since that will impact the positives and negatives. So what kind of reword would work and and what does not? First start with the normal reward that come with the normal endless missions:

1. Drops: Credits, crafting materials, endo, mods, kuva and in special conditions blueprints (Bp) + weapon parts

2.Loot table: Credits, Mods, Endo, Relics, Bp, Weapon parts, etc.

3. Focus

Let us start with,

Credits, they are a nice reward for newer players and players that don't have access to the Index yet but since this is not really aimed at them because they can't really go far into endless anyway they are no viable reword here. They are also part of the big problem of "Veteran stockpiling" (basically: players that played this game for a long time have a lot of materials stockpiled in their inventory's) and since you are very open about seeing this as a big problem i will not include them.

Crafting materials, they are pretty much the same as Credits in regards to the reasons why they are not viable option here. Arguably there is Argon but we will come to that later. (Nitain is not included since it is no endless reward at the moment)

Endo, this is a reward that a lot of newer veterans are still in huge need of and after your inclusion of Umbral Mods mods a lot of older once too. But it since it can be become a part of the "Verteran stockpiling" problem and you mentioned you thinking about adding a "scaling" of the rotation system that endo is part of it is not aim of my idea.

Bp & Weapon parts, they are mostly of single need so we have no need in them scaling. It is as easy as that.

Kuva, everyone is in huge need of it, through the changes to the riven rolling system it has no real chance to be part of the stockpiling problem and it does not decay so it hits a lot of points but lets discuss this later in detail.

Loot table rewards, since you mentioned  thinking about adding "scaling" to the rotation system in some way i will not includ this in this discussion.

As for Focus rewards scale through enemy lv but are rewarded very sparely through normal mission gameplayed (eximus sorties are not included since they offer no real incentive to repeatedly do them) but since the we have Eidolons and EVO is has solid ways to obtain it. So it is not part of this discussion, directly at least.

So as you probably noticed by now the reward i think is most suited to scale for now is Kuva. It does not decay what makes it perfect if you want to farm it for a special riven that you are working on and since rivens need huge amount of it to reroll them continually in addition of rivens having no real penalty for rerolling, Kuva is not in danger of becoming part of the stockpiling problem. There is allways a better riven roll you want or a QoL roll you want to try but currently it is not possible to really work with rivens that way since the kuva grind is too unrewarding.

1h of Kuva Survival offers around 8000 kuva and 16k with a booster (not incuding the Smeeta Kavat buff since it is quite random). That are around 2.29 to 4.5 rerolls. That are not a lot if you want specific rolls and want to play around with QoL stats.

Kuva siphons and floods runs offer a bit more Kuva per hour but since that are not endless missions and the amout that they offer per 1h is not much higher they not change much about Kuva beeing part of scaling rewards.

Now you mentioned you liked this "hop in and out" mission type that curently exists and that is totally ok, but a lot of the veterans like the challenge that comes with staying longer in endless missions and encountering high (70+) to very high (200+) lv mobs, it offers a change of the gameplay and the mindset too, but since the removal of the Void key system there is no incentive for us to go that high. Arguably there are Endless Fissure missions that have a scaling mechanic, but since you need a new relic ever cycle and the rewards that scale beside traces are not realy important to veteran (mentioned above) their existence in not really a contra argument here.

So since you like the "hop in and out" mission type the kuva farm is curently bound to and i can see your point with it, my porposal is: make the scaling reward mission a separate mission. Like sorties, invasions and fissures, where you can decide which mission you want to start. So now we got one big problem: If in one mission the reward scales and in one mission they don't scale, why should i play the normal version? This is easy to fix, make the kuva reward less for the first 20 min (minimum) so that a you can decide if you want  to do a endless mission or not. This would also prevent "hop in and out" payers to annoy long run players.

Adding scaling rewards is something that gives games with similar gameplay and farming systems like Warframe so much long term binding potential and Warframe is currently missing that. With Rivens & Kuva and the changes you made to them they are the perfect system to inclued that into the game. In addition to that rivens made the dmg potential of our gear higher and that is the perfect loop for high lv missions. This would mostly cater to "veterans" of this game and they are a problem group if it comes to gameplay contents since the power lv of our gear is to high for most of the game. This would give them long term content without a real end.

Now there is a problem with my current point until now, that is not everyone likes survival. So how about including kuva into the over mission types like Interception and Defence and let them scale there?

Since we got that point, where to put it ?

The easy answer would be the Kuva Fortress, naturally, but i have a different idea that would not just be a solution for the scaling and challenging content problem but also for a issue a lot of the older players and very story invested players currently have.

So where ?

The Void, specificly the the high tier void like Mot etc. This has not just gameplay reason but it would give the void a special place in warframe again (not just the place you have to go for Argon) and it would be solid foundation for the void to rely on if you want to do more with it in the future. (And add a way you would farm Argon passively)

Mot and the over high tier Void missions have the 300% dmg bonus too, that would make defending the kuva filter harder and the map design and mob variety would make it so much more enjoyable. Adding a additional target for Defece and Interception would give these the nice touch that kuva survival has a the moment too.

Now to story explanation that would make this possible: The Queens/Queen want kuva for transference but the tenno destroy their extractors and steal from the fortress so it would be reasonable for them to search for a bigger amount of kuva even if it means including a higher risk. The Void is this special place of with the Orokin towers and since the Sentient can't enter it it would make the perfect location for the Orokin to store huge amounts of kuva and since the "Man in the Wall" seems to have a connection to it too (see the end of "the War Within") it would make sence in account of the lore of the game.

This is my Idea for adding long term content for the players that burn out of content every time we have a normal content drouth and i went with a compromise for you and for us that includes your points and ours.

Thx for your time reading this and i hope you will answer if you guys intent on thinking about this.

PS:I will add some math here to go into a bit more detail on what the startig mount of Kuva should be and how it could scale.

 

There are to possibility for the start amount that take my points above into account: 150 Kuva and 175 Kuva per filter. Both are lower than normal kuva survival mission but not to low so that is still would be worth it to just go for 1h or somthing like that.

So, how should it scale ?

I would say it should scale like the fissure missions scale at the moment. 25% every 20min/ 5 waves/ cycle and with a cap of 100%. Capped out on 1h 40min/ 25 waves/ 5 cycles that would be 300 kuva or 350 without a booster. That is not much more than a normal kuva survival and it would bring the scaling that would make this game content and a incentive to stay longer in a mission.

I think this should scale with normal boosters and the smeeta buff, so it would be 600 or 700 kuva on the highest rate with a booster equipped. I would say that is fair in consideration of the lv we are speaking off here and that mobs would one shot the filter at this point.

If you add the kuva filters to Defence and Interception mission i would suggest a limit of filter that can appear per 5 waves/ cycle so that players are not incentivised to slow the mission down to much just to get the most out of the filter spawns.

Math:

150 Kuva: 25% per cycle

-150 fist cycle: 150x1.25= 187.5 approximated 188 / 150x1.25x2= 375  / 150x1.25x2x2 = 750 (with a booster and smeeta buff)

-150 second cycle: 150x1.5= 225 / 150x1.5x2= 450 / 150x1.5x2x2 = 900

-150 third cycle: 150x1.75= 262.5 approximated 263 / 150x1.75x2= 525 / 150x1.75x2x2= 1050

-150 fourth cycle (cap): 150x2= 300 / 150x2²= 600 / 150x2³= 1200

 

175 Kuva: 25% per cycle:

-fist cycle: 175x1.25= 218.75 approximated 219 / 175x1.25x2= 437.5 approximated 438 / 175x1.25x2²= 875

-second cycle: 175x1.5= 262.5 approximated 263 / 175x1.5x2= 525 / 175x1.5x2²= 1050

-third cycle: 175x1.75= 306.25 approximated 306 / 175x1.75x2= 612.5 approximated 613 / 175x1.75x2²= 1225

-fourth cycle (cap): 175x2= 350 / 175x2²= 700 / 175x2³= 1400

here you go, in consideration on how rare it is for the smeeta booster buff to appear and how it would only stay up for (normaly) one filter i would think these numbers are not to high.

I hope even with my bad english you can still understand my point. ^^

 

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Laslo24

[peterc3]

8 hours ago, Laslo24 said:

Now you mentioned you liked this "hop in and out" mission type that curently exists and that is totally ok, but a lot of the veterans like the challenge that comes with staying longer in endless missions and encountering high (70+) to very high (200+) lv mobs, it offers a change of the gameplay and the mindset too, but since the removal of the Void key system there is no incentive for us to go that high. Arguably there are Endless Fissure missions that have a scaling mechanic, but since you need a new relic ever cycle and the rewards that scale beside traces are not realy important to veteran (mentioned above) their existence in not really a contra argument here.

So since you like the "hop in and out" mission type the kuva farm is curently bound to and i can see your point with it, my porposal is: make the scaling reward mission a separate mission. Like sorties, invasions and fissures, where you can decide which mission you want to start. So now we got one big problem: If in one mission the reward scales and in one mission they don't scale, why should i play the normal version? This is easy to fix, make the kuva reward less for the first 20 min (minimum) so that a you can decide if you want  to do a endless mission or not. This would also prevent "hop in and out" payers to annoy long run players.

Adding scaling rewards is something that gives games with similar gameplay and farming systems like Warframe so much long term binding potential and Warframe is currently missing that. With Rivens & Kuva and the changes you made to them they are the perfect system to inclued that into the game. In addition to that rivens made the dmg potential of our gear higher and that is the perfect loop for high lv missions. This would mostly cater to "veterans" of this game and they are a problem group if it comes to gameplay contents since the power lv of our gear is to high for most of the game. This would give them long term content without a real end.

DE has said they are not going to offer more rewards for going into long missions, they don't want to make it more or less mandatory to sit in the same mission for an hour+ to have the most optimal drops from it. You've even punished people for not staying for more than 20 minutes here.

[Laslo24]

I actually did not do that, the current way how this is implemented is aimed for people to “hop in an out” like they said on one of the dev streams and that is totally fine. The current rewards are tuned for players that don’t want stay longer in one missions and still get a decent amount of it but a very big part of the community does not wont just that. They want systems that are rewarding us for staying in one mission for a longer duration and my idea of splitting these communities so that they don’t clash was there to prevent players that just want the 20min missions to get into a conflict over it (the lower reward for that duration of the mission too). They actually talked about implementing a system that scales the loot table of the rotation rewards with the time spent in a single mission, so they are ok with rewarding players for their investment. And since implementing a system like this is aimed at players that have nothing to do over a day of playing Warframe beside rerunning 20 to 40min kuva survival runs and kuva Siphon and flood missions(Pretty much the only thing in the game that is endless content, explained in my post) it would not pose much more of a problem besides a really hard challenge. ^^

Edited July 11, 2018 by Laslo24