Mods - New Slot System

[matto]

Hi everyone !

 

I first posted this thread in "Warframe feedback" but then I thought it would be better to post it here since "Warframe feedback" part of the forum became just "rework this, buff that, nerf this" forum and nobody seems to have any interest in other threads... So...

 

I watched the last livestream yesterday (first half) and I thought about what they said about stamina. And I thought of a way to make players focus on those stamina mods by improving the current mod system.

 

The actual model of the mod build page has 10 slots for 10 mods. Except for the polarities, there is no restriction at the moment, and the arms race made us all focus on powerful mods such as Flow, Stretch, Streamline, Rage or Focus. Indeed, since the main fight system relies on the abilities of our frames (except maybe for high level defenses, but for lvl 150 and + mobs), we all decided to get more and more energy and abilities range/duration.

 

When you build a frame, you have 3 parts to get: helmet, chassis and systems.

 

1. Considering that, how about we divide those 3 parts in 3 mod sections?

 

The chassis is our body and so it should be the place for primary fonctions: Health, Armor, Shield and Stamina. What makes you move and live.

Systems could be seen as "improvement systems" and so be the place for energy, power, special mods (more like skills such as Hacking system, Blocking system, Special moves effects such as Heavy Impact, etc.).

The helmet would then be the place for what we learn: Abilities, and let say Aura.

 

The current model is based on 10 slots (+ aura), but with the addition of a lot of mods recently, I think it should get up to 12 (11+aura) slots. You'll think that 10 mods is already enough, but that is for the current system. Because adding slots now would just increase the energy and power race and so players would just add those powerful mods instead of stamina mods.

 

The following model is based on this 12 slots system. But I'm currently discussing about how much slots are necessary and how to divide them in 3 parts. You can add your comments, that would help a lot.

 

2. But what if we divide those 12 mods according to the 3 parts of our frames?

 

(click to enlarge)

[sorry for the black letters, forgot to change it...]

 

Helmet: 4 abilities, 1 aura (total 5)

Chassis: +4 mods (= total 9)

Systems: +3 mods (= total 12)

 

So mods would be divided in 3 parts: Helmet mods, Chassis mods, Systems mods. So you couldn't place a Focus mod on your chassis or your helmet. And you couldn't place a vitality mod on your helmet or your systems.

 

(click to enlarge)

 

3. Why would that system be good for Warframe?

 

-With the inability to have more than 3 "improvement" mods on your frame, people can no longer have a full improvement frame (ex. having Focus, Flow, Stretch and Streamline on a same frame). Which is one of the reasons why all the "press 4 frames" became so popular.

 

-Then, it would lead us to create builds. For example, a tank frame would use its 4 Chassis mods to increase Shield and Health, without having any interest in Stamina system. A fast frame build would maybe just use Vigor + 3 stamina mods. A balanced frame would use 2 health/shield mods (Redirection and Vigor for example), and 2 stamina mods.

 

-Since you can't use more than 3 improvement mods, you would have to make a choice in how you want to use your abilities:

Kill fast and massive -> focus on range, power and energy supply.

Crowd control -> focus on time, range and energy supply.

 

-Add more coop system.

Indeed with frames with different builds, you can imagine a team with: healer (such as Trinity, stamina/time/energy supply), tank (such as Rhino, health/shield/power), scout (such as Ash or Excal, stamina/balanced improvement mods), defense (such as Frost, shield/time/energy supply) etc.

 

4. How I see improvements of this new mod system?

 

- First, maybe DE could add the so discussed and expected "custom your frame" with new chassis, helmets and systems. It could be cosmetic or not.

For example, a new part for your warframe could sacrifice a slot for a bonus in one of your stats. Example : "new power systems" would give +30% of power, but you could only use 2 slots and no longer 3 slots on your systems. Or a new systems that would add one slot for 2 ability slots sacrificed. Etc.

 

- In order to balance frames, DE could create new nightmare mods that combine power and range, range and time, energy supply and power etc.

Example: a mod that would give you +10,+15,+20% of power, and +30,+60,+90% of energy reserve. So you could use it instead of the Flow mod in order to get a small addition of power if you couldn't equip "Focus" because of the "3 slots restriction" on your Systems.

 

- We could go further and split the parts. For example, with the chassis allowing 2 slots for Health/Shield and 2 slots for Stamina. Avoiding people to use Vitality+Redirection+Vigor. Same can be done for Systems.

 

5. What are the limits of this mod system?

 

Well, if "systems" is for energy, power and special mods, who would use Heavy Impact (for example), and remove a necessary mod such as Focus, Flow, Streamline or Stretch? If this new mod system is someday implemented, maybe we should think about an "ability" slot on your "systems", such as Aura for the Helmet. So it would be 11 slots + aura + this ability (total, 13)

Same could be done for "chassis" with an extra ability such as Fast Deflection or Steel Fiber. Making a total of 14 slots.

Those could also be passive abilities that could be added by using a new chassis/systems that you can buy in the market or get in alerts.

 

If DE creates Nightmare mods that combine "Power and Energy supply" (for example), you could use Focus max (+30%) and this nightmare mod max (let's say +20%), so you would have +50% of power (and more if you use an helmet such as the Pendragon for Excalibur). So your frame would be, somehow, overpowered. Maybe nerf some frames (Nova?) to a level where +50% of power would not kill everything on the map (Armor 2.0 could help too).

 

How to count the total power capacity of our frames? Should it be a global thing like how it is now? Or should each part (Helmet, System, Chassis) have its own dedicated power capacity?

 

Implemented such a system means that we would have to rework our builds. People with 5 stars frames would lost their formas. That's why I think that if such a system is someday implemented, we should get our formas back and restart at level 30 for those who have level 30 frames.

 

Please, add your thoughts about this system, I will update the thread eventually. And don't forget to give a +1 if you like the idea!

 

Last update :

 

UI system :

(click to enlarge)

 

There would be your frame under X Ray, with the possibility to click on your helmet, your chassis or your systems.

 

Once you clicked one of those 3 parts, a small window with your slots available appears for the selected part (here helmet).

 

You can mod it like we're doing right now.

Edited September 26, 2013 by matto

[matto]

Oh damn, is it that bad? :x

[Zadier]

I think it's an interesting idea.  The reason people aren't replying is probably because it's rather early in the morning for most of North America.

[BadAimbot]

Your idea is sound, but I think we can all agree the current system isn't working well.

[matto]

I think it's an interesting idea.  The reason people aren't replying is probably because it's rather early in the morning for most of North America.

 

Damn, I'm in Japan, it's almost 8pm now, and 1pm in my beloved France, WAKE UP AMERICA! :)

[Dreykan]

Why can't i upvote this more times?

 

I think it's an interesting idea, but, as you said, wouldn't this make good builds become god builds? 

[matto]

Why can't i upvote this more times?

 

I think it's an interesting idea, but, as you said, wouldn't this make good builds become god builds? 

 

That's the reason why I posted this thread = trying to find a way to avoid god builds with the system I propose. I'm out of new ideas.

 

Maybe with some restrictions, maybe by dedicating specific slots to specific types of mods.

Or maybe by spliting the power capacity in the 3 parts I propose, so you can't use all your energy for the systems part (power/energy), instead of a global power capacity which allows you to use it the way you want.

I don't know.

 

We will get more and more mods as Updates come out. It's a shame that we don't have enough slots to add those. And those slots shouldn't be used for more power or energy mods, but more for "special skills" like blocking, sliding, etc. that make the gameplay more fun.

[alienspacebats]

+1'd.

I think this is an excellent idea, I love the concept of specialising in one particular area (caster, tank, mobility) and addresses the fact that there are so many unused (deemed "useless") mods out there.

[Khranitel]

This system will seriously compromise build diversity, so no.

As example, with this system I can't sacrifice some useless skill for much needed "improvement" mod, especially considering there is vast pool of them now.

"Specializing builds" is not equal to "hands tieing", which is proposed by this system.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Khranitel

[matto]

This system will seriously compromise build diversity, so no.

As example, with this system I can't sacrifice some useless skill for much needed "improvement" mod, especially considering there is vast pool of them now.

 

By Skill do you mean Abilities? Like making an ability polarity (") to another polarity (V,D,-)?

Edited September 19, 2013 by matto

[Khranitel]

By Skill do you mean Abilities? Like making an ability polarity (") to another polarity (V,D,-)?

Yes. And most of the time I didn't even change polarity, just use it for low-cost utility mod, such as stamina.

The power of current mod system is slots universality. You can make build with only one skill, you can make shieldless glass cannon, you can make defense turtle, you can make sprinter-stayer rushing build - all of them with single warframe.

Most serious issue we have now is with stamina system - then lets rework stamina system! What you propose is to rebuild whole house because one brick is faulted.

Current system is not ideal, it needs improvements. As example we could pass some utility mods to sentinels. Or tone down some overpowered mods (+440% shields? Are you serious?) and integrate part of their power into frame leveling system, so these mods would not be "mandatory" to use.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Khranitel

[matto]

Yes. And most of the time I didn't even change polarity, just use it for low-cost utility mod, such as stamina.

The power of current mod system is slots universality. You can make build with only one skill, you can make shieldless glass cannon, you can make damage sponge, you can make sprinter-stayer build.

Most serious issue we have now is with stamina system - then lets rework stamina system! What you propose is to rebuild whole house because one brick is faulted.

Current system is not ideal, it needs improvements. As example we could pass some utility mods to sentinels. Or tone down some overpowered mods (+440% shields? Are you serious?) and integrate part of their power into frame leveling system, so these mods would not be "mandatory" to use.

 

Well, with the system I propose, you could reduce your ability slots by crafting a new component. If you craft a new helmet (which could come with a new design), you can get rid of one or 2 slots to get slots in your other parts. Which allows you to customize your Warframe. Those craftable components would require forma as you change your slot scheme.

 

Actually, I don't think that there is a real diversity, in the builds you can make in the current system, that would be viable. The fact is that we all play with 2 or 3 abilities and use the other slots for Shields, then Power. If we ask all players to post their current build, we could see how poorly the customization is present in this game. There must be some reasons for that, and that's what I am trying to change by thinking about a whole new system.

 

And the main reason is that we will get more and more mods not power-oriented and we won't be able to use them because we are so much power thirsty. Also, I think that if we consider that some skills are useless it is for 2 reasons: either we don't know how to use them, or it's a fail from the devs. Actually all 4 abilities should be useful.

 

But you mentionned the passive mods in your post, and I like this idea too.

Edited September 19, 2013 by matto

[Khranitel]

And the main reason is that we will get more and more mods not power-oriented and we won't be able to use them because we are so much power thirsty.

Yes, that was my initial point. Unfortunately, your system doesn't address this issue, actually, it makes it worse because it leaves us with only 3 slots for everything that isn't ability, health, shields and stamina mods. Even now we can squeeze more.

I think that issue is unsolvable without dedicated passive ability slot(s), akin aura slot.

 

Well, with the system I propose, you could reduce your ability slots by crafting a new component. If you craft a new helmet (which could come with a new design), you can get rid of one or 2 slots to get slots in your other parts. Which allows you to customize your Warframe.

From today's perspective this looks not as customization option, more as punishment for not obeying the new rules of build making.

We basically took some freedom from player and give them nothing in return compared to current system. This will cause massive backslash from everyone.

 

Also, I think that if we consider that some skills are useless it is for 2 reasons: either we don't know how to use them, or it's a fail from the devs. Actually all 4 abilities should be useful.

Should be. But I'm afraid that this is unreachable target. Too many variables, too many overpowered mods.

 

My solution:

1. Analyze which mods are used most of the time (that shouldn't be hard task :). Then take part of their advantages and integrate it into warframe leveling system, essentially making them not "obligatory" to install in every build. This should give more options for filing frame slots.

2. Make dedicated slot for passive abilities. Retribution, Parry, Reflex Guard, etc.

3. Consider using sentinels mod space for passive abilities.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Khranitel

[neKroMancer]

Honestly, builds are created around the concept that you don't have room for everything. You can focus on only one or two aspects at any time. I think the current mod setup is barely sufficient in this regard. You have 6 slots for customization and the current 'caster' setup requires 4 mods (flow, streamline, focus, and stretch) which leaves you with 2 more slots for durability.

Personally, I think basic concept of building 'builds' are three parts.

1. Base stat customization.

2. Skill customization.

3. Gear customization.

Warframe offers you only one aspect out of three. We can't min/max base stat. We don't have more than four skills. That leaves us with just mod(gear) customization. If we're aim to create build in Warframe, we need all three aspects to work.

[Kitzun]

Funny, I have been thinking of something similar for some time.

Here it is.

 

Let's cut all warframes in half, on one side the body suit which requires Suit Chassis and Systems, and on the other the Helmet, with its own Chassis and Systems.

Stat-wise, from the suit comes the "athletic" stats of the frame, shield, health, armor, running speed, and others if ever, like stamina; and from the helmet comes everything power related, like energy max.

 

8 mod slots each, to be potatoed separately.

On the suit are the athletic mods like +shield/health/armor/shield regen/stamina/speed/others.

On the helmets, the powers and power-enhancing mods, and some others utility mods, like loot/enemy radar.

The aura slot goes to the sentinel, the added mod energy from aura effect will allow the 10 slots to be optimized, and the aura can be lost if the sentinel is destroyed.

 

Throw in the alternate helmets, with perhaps different polarity settings from the regular one, and it should become interesting.

[Lumireaver]

I remember that idea.

[matto]

Unfortunately, your system doesn't address this issue, actually, it makes it worse because it leaves us with only 3 slots for everything that isn't ability, health, shields and stamina mods. Even now we can squeeze more.

 

I see your point, and that was to avoid people from using what neKroMancer called the whole "current caster setup" at a same time.

That's why I mentionned this "only 3 spots" problem in the "limits of my idea" part of the thread.

And you're absolutely right on this point!

 

Kitzun's suggestion of making each part "potatoable" sounds ok.

 

And the thread linked by Lumireaver is useful.

 

Gonna work on it again.

Edited September 19, 2013 by matto

[Kitzun]

Kitzun's suggestion of making each part "potatoable" sounds ok.

One thing, though.

In my idea they are not parts, they are their own items.

On one side the suit giving the frame its basic identity, on the other side the specific helmets for that suit.

 

That's why, because they are items on their own, they get 8 mod slots each like weapons and they must be potatoed separately, even alternate helmets becoming true helmets with stats modifiers, different polarities (why not less than 4 skill polarities for some ?) and being potatoable on their own.

[matto]

Could go down to 4 slots though. 8 seems a lot.

 

And if you add the passive system for some mods (concerning armor, shield recharge or even abilities) that would work.

 

Although 3 potatoes seems to be a lot for one frame...

But not if potatoes are not as rare as they are now in alerts.

Doesn't mean they should be common.

Edited September 19, 2013 by matto

[Kitzun]

Could go down to 4 slots though. 8 seems a lot.

 

And if you add the passive system for some mods (concerning armor, shield recharge or even abilities) that would work.

 

Although 3 potatoes seems to be a lot for one frame...

But not if potatoes are not as rare as they are now in alerts.

Doesn't mean they should be common.

You don't seem to understand what I'm writing.

 

There is no need for 3 potatoes per frame because there is no 3 parts per frame in my idea, there is:

-the body suit on one side, potatoable on its own;

-the basic helmet and the alternates on the other side, each helmet needing a potatoe to be supercharged too.

 

8 mod slots for the body suit and 8 mod slots for a helmet, for a total of 16 compared to 12 now, with the aura effect going to the sentinel which lower the energy mod for the frame.

It makes that the aura can be lost if the sentinel is destroyed during the mission and the sentinel staying at 10 mod slots to make full use of the bonus energy mod of the polarity effect of the aura.

 

Get it now ?

[matto]

Oh ok, got it now ! :) Sorry for the misunderstanding.

So you need one potatoe for the core of your frame "the body suit", and another one for the helmet, right?

 

What if the 4 abilities become passive, which means they are just "attributes" of our frames.

And you make the same thing with 3 parts, such as it is required to build a frame?

 

So it's 4/4/4 slots, total 12 + the 4 abilities, getting to a total of 16 as you said. And allowing us to keep the 4 abilities so your frame is, somehow, complete. If someday new abilities come, you just have to change one of them in order to make a new "ability build".

 

Aura being on the sentinel, not the first time I hear that indeed. But sentinels getting killed during high level waves pretty easily, means the whole team loose the aura effects. So no way to survive. Well my Wyrm is doing fine in High levels, not my Dethcube and Carrier though.

 

So in your example, the Aura "extra power" effect goes where? Sentinel? or just gone and replaced by a potatoe?

[low1991]

...

hmmm long suggestion made short.

each parts (helm/chasis/system) are able to equip individual and specialize mod?

how is the frame' level calculated? how many mod point capacity total? or per part?

i'm seeing some un-balance here. and possible to split the pure & true advantage between cash-player & non-cash player.

[matto]

Yep, I see your concerns, that's why in the limits of my concept I asked about how the mod point capacity total should be counted. If it should be per each part, or stay global. That needs serious work to find something legit if it becomes "per part".

 

And getting the new frame parts should stay the same as it is now : we get daily helmet alerts. Just do the same for all new elements.

Affordable in the market, or alert rewards. Maybe just BP with credits (not plat) for the simpler parts.

[honeybadger]

I don't think reducing a player's options is the right way to encourage diversity. A well thought out post is nice to see though, I just think this is addressing a symptom of a larger problem.

[Kitzun]

Oh ok, got it now ! :) Sorry for the misunderstanding.

So you need one potatoe for the core of your frame "the body suit", and another one for the helmet, right?

 

What if the 4 abilities become passive, which means they are just "attributes" of our frames.

And you make the same thing with 3 parts, such as it is required to build a frame?

 

So it's 4/4/4 slots, total 12 + the 4 abilities, getting to a total of 16 as you said. And allowing us to keep the 4 abilities so your frame is, somehow, complete. If someday new abilities come, you just have to change one of them in order to make a new "ability build".

 

Aura being on the sentinel, not the first time I hear that indeed. But sentinels getting killed during high level waves pretty easily, means the whole team loose the aura effects. So no way to survive. Well my Wyrm is doing fine in High levels, not my Dethcube and Carrier though.

 

So in your example, the Aura "extra power" effect goes where? Sentinel? or just gone and replaced by a potatoe?

And how do we change the level of the abilities if they are passive ?

Doesn't function.

 

For the helmet, I propose for the standard helmets to have 8 slots, 4 being skill-polarized, the other 4 with no polarity; they are the basis, so their polarities are simple.

Alternate helmets can vary upon that, by exchanging a skill-polarity for another one, depending of the purpose of the helmet.

 

The body suit also get 8 slots but with 2 usual polarities (for non prime versions), the ones the actual frames have for example.

 

You know, there is no need to have 3 parts because we actualy need 3 BP, we could have;

-a bp chassis and a bp systems for the helmet, to be used in the actual helmet recipe;

-a bp chassis and a bp systems for the suit, the "frame" itself, both being needed in the frame recipe.

Basicaly, there would be X helmets' recipes with both a chassis and systems for each frame, and only 1 body suit, "frame", with its own chassis and systems needed for its recipe, per warframe.

Considering that the number of BP needed for a warframe start to become high in this optic, then why not make sure that bosses drop a randomized BP each and everytime ?

If weapons parts start to be added to bosses, then the pool of BP would be large enough that farming would not be too fast.

 

About sentinels, the problem with them is that when you get downed they immediatly attract enemy fire and are destroyed by it, even with regen they are immediatly reblasted.

Perhaps DE should make so that sentinels use regen only after a player is revived, and not when it will be certain to be annihilated again in an instant.

And yes the aura would go to the sentinel because:

-it makes sense for the supporting, floating, weaponized droid to be the source of a helpful aura rather than the frame itself;

-it would allow enough mod power to make real use of the 10 slots of a sentinel;

-it would add to their interest by forcing people to pay attention to them if they want the auras to be effective, and as far as I can see the sents need the love...