The Continuous Conundrum

[Justin_Case001]

Ok, so this is about the change to damage ticks regarding continuous rifles.  The "Logic Update," I guess I'll call it.

 

So, prior to this change, continuous rifles displayed the dps in the armory.  Now they display the damager per "shot", or in other words, damage per 1 ammo.  Ok, that's fine.  However, the way they actually deal damage has subtly changed, and imo, not for the better.  As I understand it, this change was suppose to be purely visual, but as we all know, it is not.

 

The change was meant to show less but bigger numbers, instead of many smaller numbers.  But in order to achieve this, evidently, they made the continuous rifles deal less, but bigger ticks of damage every so often.  So here's what it looks like, and bear in mind these numbers are not accurate, it's just to illustrate my point.  It's a hypothetical scenario.

 

Let's say my Flux deals 1000 dps.  Prior to the update, it would effectively deal continuous damage.  It would deal 1 damage per millisecond.  Now, it just deals a tick of 1000 damage at the 1 second mark.  This means that if I hold the trigger down on an enemy, even if his health is depleted before one second, he will not die until the one second mark.  I discovered that releasing the trigger will cause whatever damage has been dealt to resolve.  Translation: If you quickly click a high level Flux/Synapse on a weak enemy, he will die instantaneously, but if you hold the trigger down, he will take a full second to die.  To reiterate, regardless of when an enemy's health is actually depleted, the enemy will not die until the next damage tick, at 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds, or whatever it actually is.

 

Now, some might say, "One second, one millisecond, what difference does it make?!  It's all fast, right?"  Not exactly.  In a game this fine tuned, where you're killing this many enemies in missions where seconds count, this change is actually noticable and annoying.  Surprisingly, a tiny change like this can really add up in survival.  You end up taking longer to kill each enemy, and consume more ammo, or you have to intentionally let off the trigger when you think you've dealt enough damage.  It's a little thing, but it just makes it feel weird and bad.

 

I wouldn't knit pick so much except for the fact that it was fine before.  I usually like most changes DE makes, but I don't care for it when they change something like this; a non-issue that didn't need changing.  The idea was to make it easier for people to see the large numbers so they know that their mods are working properly, right?  I, for one, never had trouble with this.  Shoot stuff > stuff dies.  Put mod on.  Shoot stuff > stuff dies faster.  It's not complicated.  Not for one second did I ever think my mods weren't applying damage because lots of small numbers pop up.  But if DE wants fewer, larger numbers to appear, that's fine!  It seems to me that there must be a way to do this without screwing up the way continuous rifles feel.  I don't care what numbers they want to show.  They can make little happy faces pop up every time I deal damage for all I care.  I just want my continuous rifles to deal damage logically, and not feel all delayed and caddywampus.  They should deal damage effectively continuously, so that enemies die the moment their health is depleted.  It was perfect before.  Just put it back the way it was, please.

 

tl;dr:

 

I don't like this new logic damage tick thing.

I do not like it on the Flux.

I do not like it in a tux.

I do not like it on the Synapse.

I do not like it ALL IN CAPS.

I do not like it with green eggs and ham.

I do not like it, Sam I am.

[Inez]

It doesn't wait one second. It waits 1/3 of a second.<br /><br />It is annoying though.<br /><br />

[Justin_Case001]

It doesn't wait one second. It waits 1/3 of a second.<br /><br />It is annoying though.<br /><br />

Yeah, as I said, the numbers were just an example to illustrate what the change did.  I don't know what the actual numbers are.  But one thing is for sure: it feels delayed and annoying, and it needs reverting.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Justin_Case001

[Eliard]

OP, you have the best TLDR I have ever seen. Please, take all of my internets as a token of my appreciation.

 

I would like to also add (as I have done in a few other of these threads) that status procs for continuous-fire weapons are completely screwed because of this new logic. Particularly the Embolist, as it was probably one of its biggest redeeming qualities to make up for its tiny range. :(

[keskejesuis]

It's just annoying when you cannot - I stress on  this : cannot - kill a lvl 30 heavy gunner or napalm thing with a fully loaded Flux.

 

So what'up now in T3 defenses ? Jiust being able to come around with your Flux/Synapse  to witness other people having great fun whith working weapons or bring back your old Gorgon/Boltor.

 

It would be kind DE if you could stop those ridiculous experiments...

[Cosmeo]

Not sure if it's just me or the Laser Plate, but I've tried rapid clicking my 5 forma Synapse on a Laser Plate. Result: the Laser Plate health did not even decrease. If I hold until the tick appears the plate dies immediately.

 

So in my experience, "If you quickly click a high level Flux/Synapse on a weak enemy, he will die instantaneously" doesn't work on laser plates and presumably the death orb as well. But I can confirm that it works on other enemies.

 

Edit: Works on turrets and cameras.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Cosmeo

[Meenmu]

Totally agreed. My synapse and flux are stowed away until this is fixed.

[Detheroc]

Before the change, I knew exactly how long would it take for my Ignis to burn that lvl ?? enemy down... After that time, i switch to new targets. This new system heavily fucks that up... i ran out of ammo on an invasion mission. Vs lvl 15 corpus. With a 6 times formad Ignis. BAD change for something that was FINE because some ppl couldnt do math and thought their mods werent adding anything? Really? How many people could that be?

[OmgLasersPewPew]

Can't upvote you enough OP

 

I CAN'T.

 

Putting my synapse away until this is fixed, the delay makes even low level mobs frustrating to kill, and higher ones even more so

 

Old system was fine the way it was

Edited January 10, 2014 by OmgLasersPewPew

[EagleRise]

god damn it...
every time.
EVERY time!
EVERY TIME I SAY I"M SATISFIED WITH MY WEAPON THEY SCREW IT OVER! 
first it was my Boltor... then my Flux, now my Synapse...
every weapons that I use 5-6 formas on is ruined just a short while after I consider it perfect... maybe I should stop at 4th forma from now own.  
or... invest in the orgis/penta, muhahahaha!

Edited January 10, 2014 by EagleRise

[o0Spoonman0o]

Bump - this needs a comment from development.

 

Did you guys test this at all before releasing it?

[Hadronox]

As someone mentioned in my post on this issue, apparently DE said at the start of their latest livestream they are going to look into this.

I hope they get to fix this fast  -.-

[Cosmeo]

As someone mentioned in my post on this issue, apparently DE said at the start of their latest livestream they are going to look into this.

I hope they get to fix this fast  -.-

 

I hope you mean Prime Time. Or else I'm going kidnap your family and force you to teach me your time travelling magicks.

[latetier]

i like the sam i am part.

 

i agree though, the new damage system..visual..appearance..hot..fix..whatever! is not good. do not like my green eggs with delayed visual damage.

[Gekker]

Let's say my Flux deals 1000 dps.  Prior to the update, it would effectively deal continuous damage.  It would deal 1 damage per millisecond.  Now, it just deals a tick of 1000 damage at the 1 second mark.  This means that if I hold the trigger down on an enemy, even if his health is depleted before one second, he will not die until the one second mark.  I discovered that releasing the trigger will cause whatever damage has been dealt to resolve.  Translation: If you quickly click a high level Flux/Synapse on a weak enemy, he will die instantaneously, but if you hold the trigger down, he will take a full second to die.  To reiterate, regardless of when an enemy's health is actually depleted, the enemy will not die until the next damage tick, at 1 second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds, or whatever it actually is.

 

When I first read this I couldn't believe this. I didn't had a chance to use a continuous firing weapon since that update. Additionally I don't pay that much attention to damage numbers (they really do fade a way really quick and are hard to catch).

But I just went into the game and played on Mercury with my Flux Rifle.

 

This is a serious issue tbh.

 

I don't see why it has been changed inside of the game mechanic instead of making it solely a visual matter. Well, maybe performance wise it makes sense but mechanic wise its a change for the worse!

 

Now there are several ways to visualize damage numbers for continuous firing weapons that don't have an impact on the game mechanic.

1. They could sum up all damage numbers in the background (while actually inflicting it) and only visualize the total amount every second or as soon as the enemy dies.

2. Alternatively they could make a dynamic number that stays next to the target while you are shooting him that represents the damage that has been dealt so far since you started hitting him with the continuous firing weapon until he dies or you stopped for, lets say, 500 milliseconds.

 

I would actually prefer the last suggestion since it would give me a great visualy representation of what the weapon is actually doing.

[Hadronox]

I hope you mean Prime Time. Or else I'm going kidnap your family and force you to teach me your time travelling magicks.

 

You see, if I had time travel, how will you be able to do any of that?

 

There was a live steam yesterday, where 2 DE hotties Rebecca and Megan, were playing Warframe and talking about the game. I did not catch it from the start but someone said they talked about this issue then. 

[latetier]

You see, if I had time travel, how will you be able to do any of that?

 

There was a live steam yesterday, where 2 DE hotties Rebecca and Megan, were playing Warframe and talking about the game. I did not catch it from the start but someone said they talked about this issue then. 

oh. they did mention it slightly..i guess at least they are thinking about it idk

[Justin_Case001]

Glad to hear other people have noticed this, as are as annoyed with it as I am.

 

 

I would like to also add (as I have done in a few other of these threads) that status procs for continuous-fire weapons are completely screwed because of this new logic. Particularly the Embolist, as it was probably one of its biggest redeeming qualities to make up for its tiny range. :(

Yeah.  I forgot to mention the procs being screwed up.  This is definitely true.

 

 

It would be kind DE if you could stop those ridiculous experiments...

Nicely put.  That's what I would call these kinds of changes.  Ridiculous experiments.

 

As someone mentioned in my post on this issue, apparently DE said at the start of their latest livestream they are going to look into this.

I hope they get to fix this fast  -.-

Excellent.  Glad to hear it.

 

 

OP, you have the best TLDR I have ever seen. Please, take all of my internets as a token of my appreciation.

Thank you.  That makes it all worthwhile.

[Justin_Case001]

So, remember how I said if you let off the tigger, the damage will resolve?  So if you quickly click a low level enemy with a high level flux/synapse, he'll die faster than holding the trigger down?

 

Ok, so I polarized my Synapse and took it, unmodded, to Venus for some additional testing and discovered something very depressing.  Enemies die faster if I spam click the trigger as fast as I can, rather than holding the trigger down.  Yep, you heard right, continuous rifles just became semi-auto.  What a buzz kill.

 

The reason for this is simple.  Evidently, the damage ticks now occur 3x/sec.  Well, if I spam the trigger, I click at a rate of 5x/sec.  Now, the enemy's health should, in theory, be depeting at about the same time either way, but because I can get more damage ticks by spamming, the enemy will die faster.  That's ridiculous.

 

But, as was previously stated, apparently DE knows about this and is working on it.  Hopefully it will get fixed soon.  I'm confident they will fix it.  They usually do fix this kind of stuff.  The question is, why did they have to go and break it to begin with?

[Justin_Case001]

Not sure if it's just me or the Laser Plate, but I've tried rapid clicking my 5 forma Synapse on a Laser Plate. Result: the Laser Plate health did not even decrease. If I hold until the tick appears the plate dies immediately.

 

So in my experience, "If you quickly click a high level Flux/Synapse on a weak enemy, he will die instantaneously" doesn't work on laser plates and presumably the death orb as well. But I can confirm that it works on other enemies.

 

Edit: Works on turrets and cameras.

Yeah, I just tested this in the void with a laser plate and death orb.  Confirmed: no damage is dealt to laser plates and death orbs until the actual 3x/sec damage ticks.  Spam clicking doesn't work on those things.

[RipperBravo3]

Thanks Op for this thread, as it has been driving me crazy. I have put 4 formas on my synapse and yesterday whilst playing ODS it felt like I was using a braton........ the most I can get from my stats is 72 DPS.... what have these guys done.......... Seriously I would advocate to all players dont waste your time putting formas on as DE will just change the backend and render your guns useless.

 

My previous flux was rendered useless and now the synapse performs like a wet blanket......... seriously annoyed with these changes. If I can refer to another thread where a veteran was saying why us level 14's were disappearing this is one of the reasons. You go through a fair bit to get a weapons then level it , then foram it only for DE to nuke it..... Cmon gives us abreak stopping friggin with the system.....

 

Rant over for now, but I reserve the right to slag off on DE for wasting hours of grinding to make my weapon useless.

[Justin_Case001]

Hey, me again.  So, apparently DE implemented this fix the other day for the proc chances with continuous rifles, and while I appreciate that and all, it still doesn't address the actual delay that has made makes the continuous weapons a pain to use.  I hope they're still working on the core problem.

 

I also wanted to point out that I just tested my high level synapse again in the void, and apparently whatever this last hotfix did now made deathorbs and laser plates completely impervious to damage from the synapse.  I think derelict laser plates took damage, but the rotating death orbs in the regular void took no damage.  I tested several times, emptied whole clips of high level synapse point blank into a death orb, and nothing.  One knife from Despair took it out just fine.  So, yeah, the continuous conundrum knows no bounds.

[Starender]

I don't care what numbers they want to show.  They can make little happy faces pop up every time I deal damage for all I care.  I just want my continuous rifles to deal damage logically, and not feel all delayed and caddywampus.  They should deal damage effectively continuously, so that enemies die the moment their health is depleted.  It was perfect before.  Just put it back the way it was, please.

 

LOL you speak the truth man

 

about those who play there second favorite weapon now, mine is the ignis !!! so i'm totally screwed yea ><

[Jumalauta]

This change with my 4 forma Synapse feels like its lagging whole time. Its annoying and bullet consuming. If i want to be sure that even low lvl enemy takes damage enough to die i have to shoot it atleast that .5 second. And with real lag it takes more than that. Today in T1 survival i noticed that i spend 7-10 "bullets" per enemy if i use Synapse like Continously. If i tap it i used 2-3 "bullets". This change i call nerf, cuz it nerfs these kind of weapons to stupid. Stupid is only word what comes my mind after testing new continous fire system.

 

I have to say im getting tired of these "hickups" in this othervice marvelous game. This problem (which is propably going to stay) and Rng depresses me sooo much atm.

 

Last mission for tonight, good nites with this awesome ss:

[Starender]

DE, awnser us plz

 

all continuous weapons are dead or is it going to be fixed ???