Nekros Ability Suggestion.

[M0kujin]

First of all, I would like to say that I am one of the guys that's fond with necromancers and dark characters since Diablo 2 days and we all knew how cool that was.

 

But for Nekros, no matter how cool he looks, IMO some of his abilities are useless and unbalanced. I knew that he is a support char. but even though you can still improve his offence and a bit defense. 

 

I would like to breakdown what I've thought on playing nekros and give some suggestions for the abilities of nekros.

 

1. Soul Punch - its a pretty basic and balanced ability, theres no problem with it. (might want to add soul steal to it and add like max 10-50 life to player since nekros is a weak char there should be a compensation to it. he already got desecrate so this suggestions can be totally ignored, like what I've said its pretty basic and balanced ability)

 

2. Terrify - its a horrible and useless ability... This 2nd ability is the actual reason why I made this post. when you are using this ability specially on a defense or survival missions when enemies are coming non stop. Use this ability and it only affects the within the range, so incoming enemies would not be affected and still come at you. When comparing this to nxy's chaos, the range is wider and it stops all the enemies to get close to you. 

 

My suggestion is to change it to an offence/defensive ability like for example soul shatter (the animation will be the same as terrify raising his hands up, but (additionally) punches both his hand down creating a soul punch effect on enemies within range) deals maximum 800-1000 damage and ragdoll effect enemies within the range bumping incoming enemies that's not affected or at range (Add terrify for 5 secs on the affected and still alive enemies - optional) and make desecrate 2nd ability and this at 3rd.

 

3. Desecrate - just put it on the 2nd ability slot.

 

4. Shadows of the Dead - this ability is cool actually I love it animation and coolness wise. But its under powered... Because again, comparing to Nxy's Chaos it is the same concept but it is actually better considering its only her 3rd ability, making the nekros 4th ability somewhat stupid and only for show...

 

This ability is great If only adds up additional 30secs (60 secs life span) and 20% additional life, 10% damage on the clones and the best part would be that it has the ability to follow you to the next room...

 

So yeah.. I hope DE Devs would consider my suggestions on Nekros because I really love it, but as of now I can't seem to make him my main char because of the weak abilities.

 

Thanks for giving a time to read this post :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2014 by M0kujin

[leonvision]

i remember back when Nekros was first shown in a livestream, the power "terrify" was known as "terror totem" instead, which sounded like a ability similar to bastille, but instead of stasis, it fears enemies away, which sounds much more useful than the one-off cast fear we have with terrify right now.

[M0kujin]

i remember back when Nekros was first shown in a livestream, the power "terrify" was known as "terror totem" instead, which sounded like a ability similar to bastille, but instead of stasis, it fears enemies away, which sounds much more useful than the one-off cast fear we have with terrify right now.

If they actually made it stasis like that, I think I wouldn't post this suggestion. It would be a useful ability than the terrify now. But I really would like to see an offensive area damage ability on nekros.

[VKhaun]

4. Shadows of the Dead - this ability is cool actually I love it animation and coolness wise. But its under powered... 

Wait for AI improvements overall, then rework SotD. Anything before that is wasted dev time IMO.

 

1. Soul Punch - its a pretty basic and balanced ability, theres no problem with it. (might want to add soul steal to it and add like max 10-50 life to player since nekros is a weak char there should be a compensation to it. he already got desecrate so this suggestions can be totally ignored, like what I've said its pretty basic and balanced ability)

Agree.

I consider a knockdown very useful, even if the multi-hit isn't reliable, but Nekros doesn't really fit with that. He's not tanky enough to be standing out there picking just a target or two to knock down and a Necro obviously needs lifedrain. It should be leeching the damage back as HP by some % IMO. Classic, classic Necro skill that's missing. Very sadface. So disappoint.

 

2. Terrify - its a horrible and useless ability... 

Sorry but just like in #1, a fear is a classic Necro power that belongs on the frame. I would rather see Terrify get buffed or converted to a totem, than see it removed or reworked. I think Warframe is a game that doesn't lend itself well to a fear skill in most situations so I always expect it to be niche but some players like these, some situations benefit from them and there's no better place to put our one niche fear skill than on the Necro frame.

 

 

3. Desecrate - just put it on the 2nd ability slot.

Does slot really matter? Rebind it in the controls or something. >.>

[leonvision]

If they actually made it stasis like that, I think I wouldn't post this suggestion. It would be a useful ability than the terrify now. But I really would like to see an offensive area damage ability on nekros.

i didnt say it stasised, i said like similar to bastille, so it's like a duration AOE, but it fears enemies away. edit: besides, it wasnt a suggestion on my part, i was simply stating terrify was a late change

also, Nekros isnt a damage frame, he's unlikely to get a AOE damage ability.

Edited January 19, 2014 by leonvision

[M0kujin]

Does slot really matter? Rebind it in the controls or something. >.>

I mean the order of skill level from 1-4, i got no problems with keys lol :)

[M0kujin]

i didnt say it stasised, i said like similar to bastille, so it's like a duration AOE, but it fears enemies away. edit: besides, it wasnt a suggestion on my part, i was simply stating terrify was a late change

also, Nekros isnt a damage frame, he's unlikely to get a AOE damage ability.

ah yeah sorry, I mean if they made it like the totem with continuous terrify duration AOE (like you said that its suppose to and later changed to one time cast only) it would be great. 

[Archwizard]

Since this topic was made because of Terrify, I feel this is the appropriate place for this discussion point:

 

A fear spell is the quintessential necromancer CC; it's the second-most thematic part of Nekros' arsenal, so nobody wants to see it removed, especially since it's one of the most unique CC types we've seen in a good long while. 

The problem with Terrify is that as it stands, it's just not worth its cost of 75 energy.

 

Take a look at Bastille and Chaos, which are the only major CCs to share the same cost.

Bastille's major limitation is that it has a target cap, but it makes up for this by being recastable (no "Power in Use"), having a substantial targeting range (the epicenter being not on the caster, but anywhere you can arc the grenade to), and having the effect duration bound to the grenade so that enemies who walk by later will be affected too, all for the purpose of completely locking crowds down.

Chaos' major limitation is that it can't be recast while an affected enemy is alive so your first cast better be a good one, but it overcomes this by having no target limit bound to that initial cast and creating a self-perpetuating effect (namely that enemies who are affected by the initial cast will still attack those who weren't, who will defend themselves in kind until one dies/the effect ends); while it's not a perfect CC (as enemies may still attack you while it's active) it does make it more likely that the crowd will tear itself apart, making a very potent counter-offensive tool.

 

Compare Terrify now: It shares both of Bastille and Chaos' major limitations- which combine unfavorably, giving you a hard upper limit of CC with it at any given time (the only ability in the game with such a limit, if you discount obligatory single-target skills). How does it try to make up for this?

First, it makes enemies run away. That's all fine and dandy- it's in the name, after all- but you also can't recast it until the effect wears off, or the victims of your last cast are dead. You know, the ones who just ran three rooms away. At their top speed. Sure, it prevents them from attacking and has a longer initial duration than Bastille, but that isn't really worth much when they're still doing their damnedest to get away from you for the whole duration, and you're unlikely to see it end early under your own power due to your lack of AoE. Because of this, you're likely going to hit this button very few times within one mission; as few as you can help, even.

Second, it provides the armor debuff Soul Punch was originally planned to give. Of course, even if you ignore the above and actually manage to catch your target to gun them down, that's a damage difference of only 15% max, with capped Blind Rage/Focus- and only against enemies that have a specific amount of armor (this is weighed against Roar giving 114.5% universal damage with the same mods/cost, and that's the lower end of the spectrum). Due to the fact that you can't recast it, we'll never know if it stacks upon itself like Soul Punch was supposed to, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're better off with an automatic gun set for Corrosive damage if you wanna bank on armor reduction (since it's permanent and can get the target's armor to zero)- or just use Chaos and have them shoot themselves for even higher damage output.

Terrify is non-continuous and point-blank; it has none of the major advantages of Chaos or Bastille, and it's the only one of the three that will likely make enemies completely untargetable.

 

What makes Terrify worse is that, since you can't recast it (and may not even reach your target limit in that first cast), you'll have to dip into using Shadows of the Dead and Soul Punch as pinch CCs to pick up Terrify's slack (rather than actually improve or supplement it like any other frame's arsenal would) until its original targets die; Terrify's niche becomes less of a true CC (in spite of its cost) and more of a one-off panic button due to Nekros' lack of any other reliable AoE, which is further brought down by the unusually long cast time (it may not seem that long, but that effect delay will definitely get you killed).

It'll also be that much harder to Desecrate targets affected by it if an ally decided to do you a favor and chase down your last cast.

 

Given all of this, I'd probably weigh its effect more evenly with Radial Blind; either you can blind and root an unlimited number of nearby targets for 15 seconds, or concentrate it to make a more limited number run for a more substantial 25- at least, I would make that comparison, if I didn't know that Radial Blind can still be recast while active, roots targets it locks down, and has a lower cost to boot.

 

And before I hear anyone say "well he's a jack of all trades, of course his CC isn't going to be as good"? That line of thinking should have stopped when you saw his energy pool and thought about the meaning of "effective cost"; it's 75 energy out of Nekros' max 300 pool, versus two 75s out of Nyx' and Vauban's 450s, and a 50 out of Excalibur's max 300 (before the Efficiency mods that all of the invoked parties can equip)- that's 25% of Nekros' pool versus 17% out of the others and he's still doing worse.

A worse jack of all trades than Excalibur- the actual Mario of Warframe. (Whose CC is comparable to the others' for fewer energy orbs per cast, to boot!)

 

The cumulative costs are high enough for far better.

 

In conclusion, the simple answer here is that Terrify needs to be recastable, and slow (maybe even initially stagger) affected enemies. The target limit can probably stay on a per-cast basis as long as the aforementioned upper limit is eliminated; take away the armor reduction if that's what you need to keep its cost budget, but make the actually nominal CC of his arsenal the best (and preferably only) CC of his arsenal.

And then get back to making Soul Punch and Shadows do something non-redundant worth their slots.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Archwizard

[M0kujin]

In conclusion, the simple answer here is that Terrify needs to be recastable (with an increasing limit), and slow (maybe even initially stagger) affected enemies. Take away the armor reduction if that's what you need to keep its cost budget, but make the actually nominal CC of his arsenal the best (and preferably only) CC of his arsenal.

 

You did point out one of the things I missed. when casting terrify makes the enemy runs away at top speed lol, and make it even difficult to kill them because they will spread out. Slow or a little stagger should be included, since its only normal when your terrified your knees would shake. Re-castable, energy cost cut and AOE slow/stagger, I think would be able to fix the unbalanced terrify ability since I guess I would not be able to see Nekros having AOE Damage ability...

Edited January 19, 2014 by M0kujin

[Archwizard]

energy cost cut

 

I could go for them just buffing Nekros' stats instead. Give him a caster's energy pool and reduce his survival a bit more to compensate.

 

AOE Damage ability

 

Soul Punch definitely needs to be reworked somehow, perhaps for that very reason. Personally though, I'd prefer if they reworked Desecrate back into the Life Drain in Nekros' original plans- conic Viral damage AoE that compels living enemies to drop health orbs and loot.

[NorthGlow]

I would rather see some slight changes to his abilities, like:

 

soul punch - the explosion-like animation could get bigger as the mod is upgraded, and every enemy within that radius should be thrown, exploding upon impact.

 

terrify - aside of enemies running away, they could also be slowed down and get a viral or gas proc, while spreading the effect to nearby enemies, OR  the affected enemies should explode when near the non affected ones, knocking them down.

 

desecrate - this could make corpses explode and leave loot, while at the same stunning and damaging living enemies making them leave loot.

 

shadows of the dead - the time limit should be removed, and instead, only a certain number of shadows can be in the map at the same time (15 or 20), the ability could be casted as many times as the player wants, but the number of shadows shouldn't pass the 15 or 20 limit. also, I'd like the ability to mark an ally, hostage, object, or place for the shadows to follow and protect, or an enemy to set as priority, the mark should be set by aiming at something and pressing the interaction button (x). and if the player wants his/her shadows back pressing the interaction button again should make it happen.

 

and that's it

 

personally, he felt kind of lackluster when I got him from soloing the orokin delerics, but instead of selling him, I just learned to play with him, and all I can say, is that he is in the just fine category, but there's still room for improvements, hek I can even survive a solo ODS with him for 30 minutes, but again, there's still room for improvements

Edited January 20, 2014 by NorthGlow

[ExplodingStars]

Soul Punch and Terrify needs tweaking.

 

Soul Punch should really have some synergy with Shadows of the Dead or at least give Nekros a better chance in securing the kill 

The Punch should mark enemies with an appreciable X% debuff relative to the current value of Armor and Health of the enemy you punched. Marked enemies are unable to attack and grants a Y% damage increase from all of Nekros's attacks, be it ability or weapon.

Ragdoll still applies with maybe an Aoe Life steal effect.

 

Terrify as stated should become a Totem that requires strategic positioning with a shorter cast time, more than a maximum of 12 enemies without mods. Enemies' health and Armor values are lowered by Y% during their Feared condition

 

Shadows of the Dead would be ok if the AI did anything appreciable. It's not worth using regardless if you can mod it right or get the right Copies since the AI functions poorly imo. Right now the ability really is nothing but a gimmick. 

[M0kujin]

personally, he felt kind of lackluster when I got him from soloing the orokin delerics, but instead of selling him, I just learned to play with him, and all I can say, is that he is in the just fine category, but there's still room for improvements, hek I can even survive a solo ODS with him for 30 minutes, but again, there's still room for improvements

Yeah Nekros really needs to improve. His skills really left me with unsatisfactory feeling, it doesn't match up with his character, He can or should be a standalone player, not a support type IMO...

 

Terrify as stated should become a Totem that requires strategic positioning with a shorter cast time, more than a maximum of 12 enemies without mods. Enemies' health and Armor values are lowered by Y% during their Feared condition

 

Shadows of the Dead would be ok if the AI did anything appreciable. It's not worth using regardless if you can mod it right or get the right Copies since the AI functions poorly imo. Right now the ability really is nothing but a gimmick. 

as of now Shadows of the dead is more like an escape ability when you are in a tight situation, but still vulnerable to enemy attacks, I really like to compare it to chaos because chaos is a lot better in every aspect. First casting chaos makes ALL enemy stops(headaches) for a while and after that starts attacking each other.

casting Shadows of the dead makes NO AOE whatsover upon casting which makes you are still vulnerable when casting it, limited and not so very special clones that doesn't hold off the enemy that much and with 100 energy cost its not really a fair deal.  

[shut]

Soul Punch

 

- Allow movement while casting (e.g. Shock, Smite).

- Targeted enemy should be automatically copied to SotD queue even if it doesn't die.

- Ragdoll enemy; don't just knock it down.

 

 

Terrify

 

- Reduce energy cost from 75 to 50

- Remove cooldown on skill

- Remove enemy count (all enemies within range should be affected, no matter what the power strength)

 

 

Desecrate

 

I've always hated this skill. They need to either make it reliable or scrap it entirely, as was the plan right when Nekros was released. No Frame should ever have a skill that only has a %chance of working. Even Frost's Snowglobe is useful outside Defense, but Desecrate is utter junk outside Survival.

 

 

Shadows of the Dead

 

- Priority system of the zombie army checklist. (e.g. a Grineer Lancer will not "overwrite" a Grineer Napalm unless over 50% of the slots are already populated by Napalms. A Corpus Anti-MOA will not "overwrite" a Shield Osprey unless over 20% of the slots are already being populated by Shield Ospreys. An Infested Runner will never "overwrite" any other unit in the game.)

This is done so that SotD doesn't outright discourage teamwork, as it does now. If there's a powerful unit, then you have to go and kill it before a teammate does. If there's a weak unit, then you can't kill it if you don't want to sacrifice the potency of your Ultimate. With my system, you can simply kill everything all carefree-like and your army will automatically gain power over time. You can choose to selectively pick heavy units for maximum potency if you so wish.

[ExplodingStars]

Yeah Nekros really needs to improve. His skills really left me with unsatisfactory feeling, it doesn't match up with his character, He can or should be a standalone player, not a support type IMO...

 

as of now Shadows of the dead is more like an escape ability when you are in a tight situation, but still vulnerable to enemy attacks, I really like to compare it to chaos because chaos is a lot better in every aspect. First casting chaos makes ALL enemy stops(headaches) for a while and after that starts attacking each other.

casting Shadows of the dead makes NO AOE whatsover upon casting which makes you are still vulnerable when casting it, limited and not so very special clones that doesn't hold off the enemy that much and with 100 energy cost its not really a fair deal.  

Don't understand how you can say Shadows of the Dead is an escape ability when you're in a tight situation with it's long cast time and high energy cost. Are you sure you didn't mix Sotd up with Terrify? 

[M0kujin]

Don't understand how you can say Shadows of the Dead is an escape ability when you're in a tight situation with it's long cast time and high energy cost. Are you sure you didn't mix Sotd up with Terrify?

nope im not mixed up, I actually use SOTD as an escape cover when because I never relied on terrify as I point out some of the key problems I encounter and un-usefulness of that ability.

[Darkvramp]

Since this topic was made because of Terrify, I feel this is the appropriate place for this discussion point:

 

A fear spell is the quintessential necromancer CC; it's the second-most thematic part of Nekros' arsenal, so nobody wants to see it removed, especially since it's one of the most unique CC types we've seen in a good long while. 

The problem with Terrify is that as it stands, it's just not worth its cost of 75 energy.

 

Take a look at Bastille and Chaos, which are the only major CCs to share the same cost.

Bastille's major limitation is that it has a target cap, but it makes up for this by being recastable (no "Power in Use"), having a substantial targeting range (the epicenter being not on the caster, but anywhere you can arc the grenade to), and having the effect duration bound to the grenade so that enemies who walk by later will be affected too, all for the purpose of completely locking crowds down.

Chaos' major limitation is that it can't be recast while an affected enemy is alive so your first cast better be a good one, but it overcomes this by having no target limit bound to that initial cast and creating a self-perpetuating effect (namely that enemies who are affected by the initial cast will still attack those who weren't, who will defend themselves in kind until one dies/the effect ends); while it's not a perfect CC (as enemies may still attack you while it's active) it does make it more likely that the crowd will tear itself apart, making a very potent counter-offensive tool.

 

Compare Terrify now- it shares both of Bastille and Chaos' major limitations- which combine unfavorably, giving you a hard upper limit of CC with it at any given time (the only ability in the game with such a limit, if you discount obligatory single-target skills). How does it try to make up for this?

First, it makes enemies run away. That's all fine and dandy- it's in the name, after all- but you also can't recast it until the effect wears off, or the victims of your last cast are dead. You know, the ones who just ran three rooms away. At their top speed. Sure, it prevents them from attacking and has a longer initial duration than Bastille, but that isn't really worth much when they're still doing their damnedest to get away from you for the whole duration, and you're unlikely to see it end early under your own power due to your lack of AoE. Because of this, you're likely going to hit this button very few times within one mission; as few as you can help, even.

Second, it provides the armor debuff Soul Punch was originally planned to give. Of course, even if you ignore the above and actually manage to catch your target to gun them down, that's a damage difference of only 15% max, with capped Blind Rage/Focus- and only against enemies that have a specific amount of armor (this is weighed against Roar giving 114.5% universal damage with the same mods/cost, and that's the lower end of the spectrum). Due to the fact that you can't recast it, we'll never know if it stacks upon itself like Soul Punch was supposed to, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're better off with an automatic gun set for Corrosive damage if you wanna bank on armor reduction (since it's permanent and can get the target's armor to zero)- or just use Chaos and have them shoot themselves for even higher damage output.

Terrify is non-continuous and point-blank; it has none of the major advantages of Chaos or Bastille, and it's the only one of the three that will likely make enemies completely untargetable.

 

What makes Terrify worse is that, since you can't recast it (and may not even reach your target limit in that first cast), you'll have to dip into using Shadows of the Dead and Soul Punch as pinch CCs to pick up Terrify's slack (rather than actually improve or supplement it like any other frame's arsenal would) until its original targets die; Terrify's niche becomes less of a true CC (in spite of its cost) and more of a one-off panic button due to Nekros' lack of any other reliable AoE, which is further brought down by the unusually long cast time (it may not seem that long, but that effect delay will definitely get you killed).

It'll also be that much harder to Desecrate targets affected by it if an ally decided to do you a favor and chase down your last cast.

 

Given all of this, I'd probably weigh its effect more evenly with Radial Blind; either you can blind and root an unlimited number of nearby targets for 15 seconds, or concentrate it to make a more limited number run for a more substantial 25- at least, I would make that comparison, if I didn't know that Radial Blind can still be recast while active, roots targets it locks down, and has a lower cost to boot.

 

And before I hear anyone say "well he's a jack of all trades, of course his CC isn't going to be as good"? That line of thinking should have stopped when you saw his energy pool and thought about the meaning of "effective cost"; it's 75 energy out of Nekros' max 300 pool, versus two 75s out of Nyx' and Vauban's 450s, and a 50 out of Excalibur's max 300 (before the Efficiency mods that all of the invoked parties can equip)- that's 25% of Nekros' pool versus 17% out of the others and he's still doing worse.

A worse jack of all trades than Excalibur- the actual Mario of Warframe. (Whose CC is comparable to the others' for fewer energy orbs per cast, to boot!)

 

The cumulative costs are high enough for far better.

 

In conclusion, the simple answer here is that Terrify needs to be recastable, and slow (maybe even initially stagger) affected enemies. The target limit can probably stay on a per-cast basis as long as the aforementioned upper limit is eliminated; take away the armor reduction if that's what you need to keep its cost budget, but make the actually nominal CC of his arsenal the best (and preferably only) CC of his arsenal.

And then get back to making Soul Punch and Shadows do something non-redundant worth their slots.

What about making it into a totem that floats with you providing a smaller range but it is with you until the duration is up, and has no enemy cap? That would make anything running up to you flee in terror and allow you to  run arround and have a small duration sentinal.

[Darkvramp]

Soul Punch

 

- Allow movement while casting (e.g. Shock, Smite).

- Targeted enemy should be automatically copied to SotD queue even if it doesn't die.

- Ragdoll enemy; don't just knock it down.

 

 

Terrify

 

- Reduce energy cost from 75 to 50

- Remove cooldown on skill

- Remove enemy count (all enemies within range should be affected, no matter what the power strength)

 

 

Desecrate

 

I've always hated this skill. They need to either make it reliable or scrap it entirely, as was the plan right when Nekros was released. No Frame should ever have a skill that only has a %chance of working. Even Frost's Snowglobe is useful outside Defense, but Desecrate is utter junk outside Survival.

 

 

Shadows of the Dead

 

- Priority system of the zombie army checklist. (e.g. a Grineer Lancer will not "overwrite" a Grineer Napalm unless over 50% of the slots are already populated by Napalms. A Corpus Anti-MOA will not "overwrite" a Shield Osprey unless over 20% of the slots are already being populated by Shield Ospreys. An Infested Runner will never "overwrite" any other unit in the game.)

This is done so that SotD doesn't outright discourage teamwork, as it does now. If there's a powerful unit, then you have to go and kill it before a teammate does. If there's a weak unit, then you can't kill it if you don't want to sacrifice the potency of your Ultimate. With my system, you can simply kill everything all carefree-like and your army will automatically gain power over time. You can choose to selectively pick heavy units for maximum potency if you so wish.

Make desecrate so the corpses explode dealing blast damage and any damage type they may inflict upon you.Ex toxic ancent explodes in a toxic explosion.

[Darkvramp]

Make shadows of the dead bring up only a few shadows of the strongest type of enemy of the faction with no duration. The enemy is randomized and the shadows level is half of the lower level cap of the mission. so in a greneer mission it brings up a commander or a napalm, etc and the shadow sticks around for a while until it is destroyed.

[shut]

Make desecrate so the corpses explode dealing blast damage and any damage type they may inflict upon you.Ex toxic ancent explodes in a toxic explosion.

 

Make shadows of the dead bring up only a few shadows of the strongest type of enemy of the faction with no duration. The enemy is randomized and the shadows level is half of the lower level cap of the mission. so in a greneer mission it brings up a commander or a napalm, etc and the shadow sticks around for a while until it is destroyed.

 

Eh... gonna have to say no to both of these. Blower-upper skills don't suit Nekros' theme at all, and duration-limited zombie army is far, far better than just a couple of Heavies. Even if their level is double (I assume that's what you meant) that of the mission's.