An Update For Ember

[Ace4225]

She's my second oldest frame, and still one of my favorites [visually, and in concept]. I experience a challenge when I play her; that I could always be doing better than I currently am.

I have made it a point in this game to take underrated equipment that I think has potential and try modding it out to see if it becomes better.. and many times, I am pleasantly surprised at how well it competes with "top-tier" equipment.

Ember.. still has yet to be developed well. First Overheat was buffed to be more defensive, then it was buffed again, then it was removed and replaced with a more interesting [yet, less effective] skill, Accelerant.

TL;DR : I think Ember still needs reworking again, her main problem being that, unlike many other frames, she doesn't scale well when the going gets tough. I've thought this over for a long time, and I have 3 different ideas for how her skills could be iterated better.

[keep in mind these are separate ideas. Combinations of these could also work, but they are intended to be separate suggestions.]

1. Fire Blast could be removed and Overheat could make a comeback as her 3rd skill with a slow energy drain during use. I believe Overheat serves Ember's offensive playstyle much better than Fire Blast, which is the skill that SHOULD have been removed, for several reasons:
-Fire Blast is too similar to World on Fire
-Fire Blast has had multiple graphical issues
-Overheat actually encourages berserk gameplay, while Fire Blast encourages standing in one spot.

2. [EDITED] Accelerant could be buffed to have a slightly longer stun duration [2 or 3 more seconds], and/or it could be able to stack with itself if casted multiple times [adding 100% Heat damage each time, NOT multiplying exponentially], but only if casted from different Embers. Its energy cost could also be raised to suit the ability's increased effectiveness.

3. World on Fire could be buffed so that each "explosion" impact deals an AOE knockdown [whose radius COULD be affected by Power Range mods] that could only be cancelled the way other knockdowns are. This would give World on Fire a cooler, more physical effect that would also scale well when enemies are higher level.

[This idea is a direct response to a gameplay quirk I face a lot currently when playing as Ember, in which I get gunned down by enemies while they are being rained on with fiery explosions. It doesn't just look stupid; it doesn't make much sense.]

I would love to get [constructive] feedback on these suggestions as well.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Ace4225

[-Tzek4-]

overheat will never come back, it was abused and game breaking and wasnt the style they wanted ember to be, second  fireblast can be cast while on the move and coupled with accelerant there should be no problem at higher levels except her health, agian she is not meant to be defensive.

[ZodiacShinryu]

Buffing her powers doesn't actually fix her problems.  I would disagree that "many" frames scale well into higher level content, at least with concerning damage capabilities because as the level gets higher the usefulness of power damage is reduced (which has always bothered me).  So with that in mind Ember can still scale because accelerant can stun (whether its meaningful enough is debatable) along with increasing fire damage from any source.

 

Overheat was removed because it was too much, getting like upwards of 90% damage reduction.  While it did complement her skill set, back in those days she was the mirage of that time.

 

Fireblast could have some tweaking out of any of her powers but definitely not removed. Personally id like to see it give some range (similar to the eximus attack) even if the ring still remains as an after effect.

 

Embers real problem is that a large number of enemies have resistances to fire damage thanks to damage 2.0 as well as her low defense rating. Her armor is really an artifact of her overheat days and should be increased, even nyx prime was given a ton of armor. A small sprint speed increase could be nice too.

[Ace4225]

Overheat was removed because it was too much, getting like upwards of 90% damage reduction.  While it did complement her skill set, back in those days she was the mirage of that time.

I liked your reply, but this line encompasses what bothers me about Overheat. [that other/newer powers have been made/altered that basically do what Overheat did, and the problem with it was that it was simply overbuffed.. and then removing it was the opposite extreme.]

-Overheat doesn't have to return as strong as it was. The damage reduction could be lowered, and/or adding a slow energy drain would offer another way for it to become less useful at higher levels: tanking damage while in Overheat could drain your energy faster, proportionally to the damage taken.

Also, bringing it back as the 3rd skill instead of the 2nd skill would mean it would have a greater initial energy cost and it would have more mod value. 

where we seem to agree is that Overheat complimented her concept and skill set, which is why I think it deserves to return, unlike Fire Blast, which has always been a mini World on Fire and I felt to be too repetitive of a skill.

 

fireblast can be cast while on the move

yes, but it doesn't move with you. It's a stationary AOE with a long duration. It works well for defending a point, but that makes it a defensive skill. If you honestly run around casting Fire Blasts, you're wasting energy as World on Fire literally does that for you.

I do realize my thoughts for changing Accelerant could be abused, however, and I've edited the OP.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Ace4225

[Ace4225]

overheat... was abused and game breaking

sure it was when it was over-buffed. So was Iron Skin when it was straight-up temporary invincibility, Blessing [when it was the same as old Iron Skin], the "immortal" build, etc. Game-breaking builds haven't been quelled, either. [i.e. "Cloaky."]

The point is, this isn't an excuse for them to remove a great skill. None of the above-mentioned skills have been removed just because they were too strong; they got nerfed and are [arguably] in a good place for the moment.

 

I would disagree that "many" frames scale well into higher level content

^

I'm also going to have to disagree with this point....

Loki - Invisibility, Radial Disarm

Rhino - Stomp

Nova - Antimatter Drop, Molecular Prime

Nyx - Mind Control, Chaos, Absorb

Volt - Electric Shield

Vauban - Bounce, Bastille, Vortex

Trinity - Well of Life, Energy Vampire, Link

Banshee - Sonar, Silence, Sound Quake

Excalibur - Radial Blind

Valkyr - Warcry, Hysteria

Frost - Snowglobe

Nekros - Terrify

Hydroid - Undertow

Zephyr - Turbulence, Tornado

Mirage - Hall of Mirrors [holograms draw aggro], Eclipse [dark mode]

...Ember - Accelerant [short stun property]

^these are all warframe abilities I can think of off the top of my head that have properties that are NOT affected by enemy level. Some may begin to have reduced effectiveness to some of their aspects, but while their damage eventually becomes neglible, their status/utility effect is not affected by enemy scaling.

Why is it important for Ember to scale better? Because she's an offensive caster. Nova is also an offensive caster and already scales well; Antimatter Drop can potentially reach unlimited damage, and can even feed other Antimatter Drops or Absorb, and Molecular Prime will always slow enemies down [or speed them up, depending on how you've modded it :) ] as well as making them take double damage.

If you bring an offensive caster that only does flat amounts of damage with her abilities and nothing else [pardon me, there's a couple seconds of stun from Accelerant now, though there are other stun abilities with much longer duration] into a game where enemies are constantly scaling upward, she'll eventually reach a cap on her effectiveness and become puny.

Nova has all but replaced Ember in long-term games as a damage output. One could argue that Nova is overpowered for damage, but her squishiness causes her to die a lot, so I think she's fine. [in fact, I think the design council frames are among the most well-designed in the game.] Ember's just as squishy, but can't put out nearly as much damage after a while.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Ace4225

[Malikon]

I've always been of the mind that Overheat encouraged "oblivious" and lazy gameplay and bad habits by providing that ability to run in middle of everything, accomplish not as much as you wanted to, and walk out of almost any situation without any consideration or expectation of it ending badly.

[Ace4225]

I've always been of the mind that Overheat encouraged "oblivious" and lazy gameplay and bad habits by providing that ability to run in middle of everything, accomplish not as much as you wanted to, and walk out of almost any situation without any consideration or expectation of it ending badly.

again.. we're talking about Overheat as it was, not as it could be. I don't want Overheat to return exactly as it was either. If you have an idea for how to make Overheat better or an idea for a totally new 3rd skill, I'd like to hear it. But right now, especially thanks to Accelerant giving JUUUUST enough stun time to cast World on Fire, Fire Blast is kind of pointless at the moment. [i think we could agree on that.]

I haven't even seen it used in pub games in a long time. [except maybe on accident. lol]

Edited October 15, 2014 by Ace4225

[Malikon]

My idea for making Overheat better would be to leave it in the dumpster where it belongs.  I've seen some neat ideas for a redesigned Fireblast from the community, though.

 

One such idea for Fireblast was to make it kind of like a cross between what it is now and the stomp the shockwave moa does.  (Very similar to the Arson Eximus)

Another was to make the inside a "hot" zone, for lack of better words, where Tenno attacks inside the zone do additional fire damage and enemies are consistantly hit with an ignite proc.

 

I'd have to give a little more consideration if i were to put down an idea for a redesign of my own.  I will reply back once I've thought up a decent one.