Malaheart
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Posts posted by Malaheart
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Actually read the whole thing this time... Ok I confess I just glanced over the multishot one.
I'll tell you two things, OP:
1. You make some damn good points there, and I think I get what you are trying to say;
2. Don't put titles like that on your threads. You are sabotaging yourself. Most people are not even reading your (very interesting) posts because they already come in with their minds made up.
Instead of saying "this and that must go", say "ideas to improve progression and item modding", or something along those lines.
We are all guilty of link bating sometimes *wink*. And future reference I will make my titles more long winded explanations that this is just my opinion.
makes sense but that is re working every single weapon... and plus i really do not mind having to use a mod to increase the damage... why change what already works?
Yes, but this is a beta after all. Things can change, especially when they are important. Look at the armor system for example. And to your point about what already works. Oil lamps lit a room well enough, but without electricity and the light bulb I would not be here typing to you today (to the joy of many).
It seems to me that OP simply wants to throw any and all damage mods out the window, or streamline the crap outta them.
The problem with that is that you significantly lower the firepower of anything that's not already powerful.
It supports a prevalence of the Acrid and what not, rather than promotes multiple weapons.
I want to have bullets that bounce around the room and puncture enemies. If that is what you mean by streamline yeah sure I do. And I'm not nerfing every weapon. If you read my post I just want Serration mods to be incorporated in to the weapon and scaled to a balanced point. Please and again NO, I don't want to kill every damage mod in the game just read my quote form the OP blow.
I'm going to stop here to say this. I am not on a crusade to kill all damage mods. Just the mods that feel redundant and limit the choices of players. Just the same I also don't want to kill damage scaling on weapons. I just do not believe the mod system is the right place for how weapon's base damage should be increased
And simply saying to read your post before lashing out at you won't help either. They're not even reading it that far.
No, but it makes them look like fools when they don't.
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I argue that having the damage mods in is just as satisfying as removing them. Meaning neither is a satisfying experience. Instead as I have argued before, lets incorporate the base damage increase mods into their respective weapons as they level and instead make room for mods that allow bullets to bounce off walls. That is satisfaction.
Yet another hidden "I'm unable to max out my serration, so let's remove it!" thread.
Boring.
Ah, wait.
Member Since 06-August 13This' explains everything.
No.
Which explains why I have 2 max Serrations. Redundant no?
With the current system all we are doing is locking new players out of (what little) end game content we have until they are able to spend ~250 hours farming a Split Chamber.
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It took me forever to get serration, the chances of getting it are closer to rare than uncommon. However, I wouldn't be upset if they actually labeled it rare. Either way, it is an expensive mod, might as well make sure people know its going to be when they get it. Otherwise, I would rather not see the damage output mods go.. have you seen how long it takes to level up say the lato without mods?
[edit]Plus, this is a player vs mob game, it doesn't need as much balancing as a PVP game.[/edit]
Which is why it should not be a mod that is limited to RNG. Why make something SO IMPORTANT it is required hard to find. And balance is needed in a PvE game. Not to open Pandora's box, but look at Molecular Prime. It is so unbalanced it kills the fun for other players by limiting how much they can play the game.
Oh and welcome to the forums Ph33rless.
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I don't have a problem with serration mod. Yes it can lead to large damage scaling but the upgrade cost to get it to max rank is very high to the point where no new players will max it for some time, then it also has a value of 14 so if a weapon doesn't have the appropriate slot you lose half of your capacity right there. From this a player then needs to use forma or a catalyst which can be hard to get or result in the use of platinum. So either way DE wins you have to put more time or money into the game to accommodate this mod and its not like a rank 1 player is gonna have a significant form of serration available to them only higher levels players who earned it. I agree with these guys on this.
However it is worth waiting until the new armour system and updates from DE come out to even begin thinking of what needs changing.
Basing your game totally off of making nickle and diming is bad game design. Yes money must be made but not at the cost of the community, who are at the end of the day your number 1 advocate. And to those who say "Wait for x change" DE is a talented developer and they can multitask. Besides They are already thinking of what is next.
...was about to say the same thing. Next up is definitely gonna be warframes. THey need to go man.
I already told you it's ammo drop scaling.
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This is the way I see it. When a soldier joins the military he is an untrained civilian. Over time he gains experience in a field and with said training he improves in stamina, health and becomes stronger. This is the same for Warframes.
A weapon, no matter how much you use it, will never get stronger unless you do changes to it. Added an extended mag, use different bullet types, extend the barrel, add sights... etc. In order for a weapon to become stronger you have to modify it. The same is true in this game.
Yes, because push ups totally give you more shields.
U mad bro? Remember serrations takes foreeeeeeevaaaaaa to rank up, mine is currently sitting at 120% damage...if you take serration out, then you take out one piece of the pie (the pie beig Warframe) eg. GRINDING. Which means less time spent on Warframe itself. We need serration also for the end game mobs. Go and play on pluto with any weapon without serration (nevermind shotguns or secondories) and tell me if you need serration or not
No, I have at least one 165% serration and I don't want to remove damage increase from weapons. I just want it to be weapon dependent. and to your last point I'll refer you to what I said in my OP. I quoted it below.
Yes we would no longer have the option to handicap ourselves by removing the serration mods. But why would we do that in the first place?
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Well you already did split-chamber must go. What other mod must go next? I'm excited for Fast Hands must go.
Next topic on my list is scaling ammo drops. As in they should.
THIS MAN WANT MOD TREE SYSTEM BACK?
Nope, this would be completely hidden behind the scenes. What would happen is as the rank of your weapon increases so does it's base damage box. You would still have mods, the only difference is maybe puncture would look more useful now that your not giving up damage for it.
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Until the day comes that the entire armor, enemy scaling, weapon scaling, warframe scaling, and player mastery level system changes, those mods are a necessary & integral component to the development of player's overall damage package.
Not if they were rolled in the the natural progression of weapons as i purposed.
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Edit: I changed the title of this thread to be less inflammatory.
Again, Please read before you post. This is most likely going to be another inflammatory topic but this is a change I think is necessary to bring Warframe where it needs to be.
Note: I'm going to use Serration interchangeable for base damage increasing mods for weapons. When I refer to it without specifically saying other wise I'm including Serration, Hornet Strike, Point Blank, Pressure Point and Killing Blow.
As it stands right now Serration mods are a blunt tool for increasing the damage output of weapons as content progresses in the game. Every fusion rank you improve the mod it increases the base damage (and by an extension the damage of all other mods) by a flat increase in percentage. There is no variance between weapons in an individual class. They all get the same percentage increase of all the other weapons. No matter what their base damage is or what kind of weapon they are.This in turn limits the options for the developer when trying to balance weapons and takes the choice out of one mods slot.
I'm going to stop here to say this. I am not on a crusade to kill all damage mods. Just the mods that feel redundant and limit the choices of players. Just the same I also don't want to kill damage scaling on weapons. I just do not believe the mod system is the right place for how weapon's base damage should be increased. I guarantee you anyone who has a max level weapon in Warframe they use regularly puts a Serration mod on it. It is so widely used it may be fair to say it is a requirement for every weapon to have. Something that could be considered apart of every weapon evolution of power. So if it is a requirement on every weapon, why have us equip it? Why not remove the mods and relocate the damage increase on to the the ranking system of the weapons. So as the "level up" their damage increases.
Warframes already have energy, shields and health that grow in strength as they gain ranks. So why not do this for weapons? It would free DE from having the linear scaling mods, mods that give the same percentage no matter what weapon it is attached to. In the process give them a new tool that would allow the developer to balancing the weapons. No longer would every rifle and bow in Warframe have an automatic unvaried base damage increase of 165% at max. That number could be tuned for what would balance the weapons themselves. It could also be non linear for levels. There could be a higher average percentage increase at lower levels to help lessen some of the learning curves issues of the game. Yes we would no longer have the option to handicap ourselves by removing the serration mods. But why would we do that in the first place?
At the end of the day, Serration mods are a requirement on every weapon.So much so they have become a part of the weapons themselves. Why not just take the next logical step?
Thank you.
Final note: Pressure Point and Killing Blow are the two most redundant mods in the game. One that increases non charged damage by 150% and one that increases Charged damage by 150%. They are quite literally one mod that has been split in two.
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Same thing I say for all the damage related threads:
We should probably wait until the new damage model to come out and then come back to this suggestion.
Why? It still has to be scaled around guns doing x5 the damage of powers per shot.
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Destro6677 I only use a Serration, Piercing Hit and Split Chamber on my Paris and I still hit for about 5000 damage (crit builds also benefit from split chamber). It can easily be overpowered with only two damage mods, not just a skittles shooter.
And on the bullet sponge enemies. That is also a problem I hope they address with the new armor system, The difference is they will still have to be bullet sponges for those who lack a split chamber mod.
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My apologies to the community, this was my attempt at light heartily getting the inevitable comments out the way while trying to reserve space for for commenting on good points people make within this thread. It was a mistake and one that I shall not make again.
Just a quick clarification to my hastily made point earlier. The idea is not just to remove Split Chamber mods. It is to remove them and then scale the enemies so without the expectation of players having this mod. This would bring health and armor (with the new system hopefully) to a point where other sources of damage other than guns (Melee and warframe powers) become relevant.
And to those who think removing Split Chamber will make weapons nonviable. I have this to say. If a weapon requires a 15 point mod JUST to be viable, it is a broken weapon. All Split Chamber does is obfuscate that fact behind the crutch it has become. So let's get rid of it and fix the actual issues with the weapon.
I found this quote on the third page and thought it was good enough to round off my point with. It is by gell, and sadly I can not use normal quote feature for this (because I can't or i'm too incompetent) so I'll have to copy and past it here. It is unmodified and a direct copy. I hope you don't mind gell.
gell, on 10 Sept 2013 - 6:05 PM, said:
"I agree, but this is not the first thread about this, and so, here are the usual responses (all found in this thread already!).
- Someone will tell you to just not use it. This is bad logic because of the OP's reasons, which is that the game was balanced around having super scaling damage on weapons. It's a bad addition to the game that affected other things, so you can't just not use the one thing. The point was to remove it from the game, and rebalance accordingly.
- Someone will always say "good luck" fighting super high level enemies. This is a problem with armor/health scaling. No matter what, with out current system, you will eventually do nominal damage to the enemy, so it's a poor argument to imply that multishot or any super damage increasing abilities are needed. If E added super multishot mod, someone would then just tack on another 100 levels as an argument that without that super multishot mod, you couldn't go another 100 waves. So it actually is the mod that is the issue, because it exists, stuff was scaled to work with it, and then it becomes a necessity because you're weak without it.
- There are always some who say they love multishot, so "no." But since they have no actual argument, you can ignore them.
- Someone will tell you to hold out for the future. In this case, it's true armor 2.0 is coming. But the question is if it matters much. As the OP pointed out, damage for weapons scales way more than damage on abilities (this might be an issue with abilities, but whichever the case, it's imbalanced between each other).
- And every so often, you will get someone who understands the problem. There's one on the first page of this thread, aside from the OP.
- Someone suggests something wildly different to solve the issue, in this case, damage mods being preferred over utility. These are tough but something for DE to think about.
Multishot allows primaries and secondaries the ability to scale way up in damage. I've played long enough to know multishot has been around for a long time, before the card system was around. Due to this, the game has definitely been balanced around enemies being able to survive highly damage modded weapons. It means not having multishot is a huge game breaker in terms of balance. Since damage abilities don't scale up in this fashion (not even with Focus), it leaves them out of the higher level content. You end up needing all the damage mods to even put a dent in really high levels, and eventually, if you do something like Endless Defense or Survival, none of that matters anyway because enemies will all be higher than even the multishots and serrations/hornet strikes can handle. So why have multishot, the magical bullet mod?
I admit I use multishot, but it's not hypocritical because of the arguments already stated. It's a required for higher level stuff. So does this mean I don't want higher level stuff? No, it just means that there shouldn't be a giant gap between guns, melee, and warframe damage abilities. Note that most forms of utility do increase damage in some way, but they tend to be more quality of life improvements, or require skill/aim/knowledge. Faster reload is not "damage" but it helps you get back in the fight faster. Putting up a shield is not "damage" but it allows you some breathing room to maybe take better aim for a headshot/crit. Even Nova's Antimatter Drop, while super powerful, requires work put into it for it to really shine (helped by multishot mods!). Mutlishot is just straight damage, and while I think maybe the damage mods themselves are a bit much, multishot is wholly unnecessary on top of that.
It may not be easily understandable to the multishot defense squad, but imagine if there were 8 multishot style mods. Some might think this would be amazing, but it would just really show how far outclassed anything else is compared to the weapon filled with multishots. The game would scale up in armor/health, instead of being more interesting, and nothing else would compare. If you can't understand that, you might want to leave this thread now, and stay out of balance discussions until you figure it out."
Again this is gell not my self full credit goes to him for the quote.
Thank you all for your reply and thoughts.
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Edit: Changed the title to me more descriptive and less inflammatory.
Please read before you post, I know this is going to be an inflammatory topic to some but it is something I truly see as a problem in Warframe!
Note: Split Chamber, Barrel Diffusion and Hell's Chamber are all one in the same to me. When I speak of Split Chamber unless otherwise specified I include all three of these mods.
There is a scaling issue in Warframe when it comes to weapons and mods. Damaging powers are undesirable because they almost always can't live up to the damage of guns. The developer has had to institute crazy high levels of damage reduction for enemies just so they will survive more than one shot. Damage staging has had to be introduced on some bosses to prevent them from dropping out of the sky like rocks. There is an issue with fully modded weapons, one that I feel is breaking the game. I believe that Split Chamber is that issue and is the cause of these Woes.
The damage dealt by a unranked gun (low end) vs rank 30 gun (mid range) is pretty large. But it pales in comparison to the damage gap between a rank 30 gun and a maxed out reactored rank 60 gun (top end). Split Chamber mods are really only worth equipping at close to max fusion rank to get the most out of there point cost. And at 15 points for a max Split Chamber (90%) you can see why the gap exists. Without a polarity slot a max rank Split Chamber would take up a full half of the mod points available to a rank 30 gun. That does not really leave room for anything else once you socket a modest level Serration mod and a Piercing Hit. So all the fun utility mods are out the window and yet you are still are barley better off than just putting a couple elemental mods on. This is because Split Chamber is all about scaling off multiple damage mods. With a rank 60 gun you have plenty of space to socket every damage mod in the game at modest to max fusion rank and maybe a utility mod or two. This effectively doubles all damage dealt by your shots while allowing you to keep mods such as crit and rate of fire. This is what creates the massive power gap that Warframe suffers from in it's endgame. It's not halving too many mod points It's halving a x2 damage mod.
The bottom line is Split Chamber mods are nonviable at low levels and scale too well at high levels to be a balanced part of Warframe. They are the reason why the end game is ether too easy or too hard. It all just Depending on if you have a Split Chamber or not. So let's get rid of Split Chamber so we can remove all the silliness DE is having to do just to keep enemies alive. And maybe just maybe make other utility modes viable for once.
Note 2: I have 3 Split Chambers, 3 Barrel Diffusions and 3 Hell's Chambers.
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Pvp is not really even in the game yet out side of dojos. The arenas that are hidden on the star map are unfinished game modes that are in the early stages of development. They were only included as a mistake/Easteregg/inside testing. As of right now DE needs NO feedback on bugs or balance issues within those pvp arenas or how they function as they are too much of a work in progress.
But if I was to provide a suggestion for pvp in general, I would say do what they do in guildwars. Have skills and mods have different affects In side pvp matches versus pve.
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AGAIN. WE CALL FOR A PETITION
Bring her health to 75 and armour to 10.
Bring her sprint speed down to 1.1 or even 1
Make the damage multiplier on M Prime 1.5 or 1.75, instead of 2.
Make the reduction of speed a 25% or 35% reduction, not 50%
This would balance out Nova completely, without making her completely obsolete.
or
NERF HER GOD FORSAKEN ULTIMATE!
And her ult would still be OP because it just scales too well with the number of enemies.
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It is already a 600% damage increase. That has to be fixed before anything else. Yes I would love to see a passive side to powers and better weakspot placement but really 600% way over the top.
And on the multiple spots. I would rather see it refresh the old spot. You are finding their hidden weakness after all and how many times can that change in 4 min?
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It's time to out right remove powers that don't work and replace them with ones that do. I'm looking at you silence!
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The pvp arenas are not even really live yet! They are not finished. Yes pvp has issues but it is not even really a feature yet outside of dojos. (the hidden maps don't count)
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I had the same issue with the helmet. It's random and random, contrary to popular belief, is random.
Oh and don't feel so bad it took me around 70 raptor runs just to get the helmet for nova. RNG bites everyone.
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I don't think we have to go as far as removing damage from Molecular Prime altogether. But as the ability works right now it is almost impossible to balance it through numbers. The reason why is the damage to a single target is practically multiplied for every enemy that is within explosion range. So how can we control that to make the ability balanced?
Damage nerf: as of right now the damage of a single instance of Molecular prime is absolutely insane. At max rank it deals about 800 explosive damage (affected by armor, focus mod, and x2 damage debuff). to put this in perspective it only takes a single enemy explosion to meet the damage output of a banshee's soundquake. Obviously this is a problem. There is never just a single enemy around and in defense matches enemies clusters can easily reach 20 members (It can get higher I just picked this number as a nice average). So on a scale of 1-20 enemies where should we move the bar to be balanced yet satisfying? If you reduce the damage so it takes an average of 5 enemies kill midlevel light enemies and damage heavy. The damage would still be too high for the upper end of the density bar. but if we moved it up to say 15 enemies the balance maybe right for high density but for fewer than that the ability just feels weak. That is the problem with damage that scales off the number of enemies, is the middle grounds leaves it still overpowered for high density missions damage wise, not very useful for and average number of enemies.
Range nerf: The range would likely have to be reduced to an absurdly low number to be balanced for the upper bar of the enemy density again leaving it under powered for the low.
Remove debuff: As far as I'm concerned the debuff is the one thing that was gotten right about the ability. It gives great utility for single target fights making it a versatile power. Removing just this would would also not fix the fact that nova clears entire rooms with the ease a normal player takes to kill a single target.
Cooldown/can't cast till fully depleted: This would be more of an annoyance than a fix. It only takes once cast to clear an entire room. So if you make them hunt down everyone effected or wait the full duration you are locking them out of one of there abilities for a long time if there is some kind of glitch.
I don't think the ability in it's current state can be saved. I want molecular prime to be a strong ability but I also want it to be balanced. But who knows maybe there is some combination of changes that will make Molecular Prime something worth using, but not an annoyance to every other player. For this i'm just not holding my breath I have the feeling it won't even be worth equipping in the future.
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God, another cry thread because someone got more kills on a defense map. Why ?
MPrime -> only usable on infested defense, everywhere else not that effective.
So yeah letz nerf it because its too powerfull only on INFESTED DEFENSE, because the whole game consists of infested defense.
It is usable against every faction. It is effective against every faction. It is better than almost every other ult against every faction. It's not a matter of "Not getting the most kills" its a matter of halving to sit next to the cryopod with nothing better to do than sit on your hands. This should be a cooperative game, one person should not be able not make every other players presence feel unneeded and unwelcome.
Personally I'm not a fan of having to play "Beat the nova to the next room to play" play style she brings to matches, because she generally wins.
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Snow globe is over powered. It trivializes two, TWO of the three factions in the game and the counters DE has come up with have not worked. But the reason why Nova is (and should be) in the spot light for next to be nerfed is because Snow globe does not kill everyone's fun. Molecular Prime clears entire rooms/waves leaving the other players to do nothing but sit on there hands and follow the nova (who is faster than them) through the mission. Snow globe is a utility power, it kills nothing leaving all the other players able to play the game, albeit with little risk, but they can still play the game. I really do think DE just needs to up with better counters for snow globe, a direct nerf maybe too heavy handed. After all what else does frost have?
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Infested are the only faction Bastille was super effective against, being that the are an melee based faction. Unless DE wanted to increases the number of toxics (please no) or add a strong ranged unit to the melee based faction I find it hard, but not impossible, to think of a counter to Bastille so it does not trivialize an entire faction.
And since it has been brought up the snow globe counters don't really work very well as is.
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Idea 2: Molecular Prime- Applied to enemies in radius of cast, explosion trigger on death or other Molecular prime explosions. The explosions them selves deal no AoE damage but trigger other instances of molecular prime to explode. When an instance of Molecular prime explodes it deal x single target damage to the enemy it was originally applied to. Keep x2 damage and speed debuff.
This would allow DE to keep Molecular prime at about the same level of damage as other warframe ults. it would keep the chain effect that characterizes the ability without the possibility of one shotting anything if there is enough enemies clustered. (Mid level ancients would survive the explosions like every other warframe ult in the game)
Idea 2: Molecular Prime: Remove damage all together. keep the x2 damage and slow. When an enemy dies that is affected by Mprime it explodes and applies molecular prime to any enemy target in the radius of the explosion. Original application is the same, all targets in the radius.
This is to make it a long game ability, nova already has a good amount of AoE with anti matter drop. I though this would be a complimentary ability one that serves the team and not just the nova. The central idea is to have a nova cast this ability at the start of a wave on a defense mission and it be perpetuated through out the entire wave providing not damage but solid utility.
Stats: I would also like to see her speed reduced. She already has a maneuverability power with worm hole, she does not also have to be the second fastest warframe in the game. also on average her baseline stats are on the high end when compared to other warframes.
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Not a fan of his 3rd ability. I would rather have more necromancer like abilities. He seems to be lacking them.
Split Chamber: Redundant And Barrier To Endgame
in Weapons
Posted
Then there you go, put a mod in that doubles the number of shot, increasing the spread but cut the damage per pellet in half. In the end with the removal of Split Chamber mods and the reduction of scale to enemies you would end up with a mod that is a side grade. Your over all damage per shot will stay the same but your spread will go up. Or do the complete opposite. These are the kinds of mods that are possible if we reduce the base number of mod points "required" to have a functional weapon and damage percintage ise wise you would be in the exact situation you are now.