[We need to talk about the Ruvox, Incarnons and Objectively correct perks]

4 hours ago, WindShadow970 said:

 

Steel Path was advertised as hard mode, it was doomed to fall flat in that department because people have been killing things 100x the level of Steel path since forever, not to mention all that changes is the enemy EHP...no increased damage, no aggressive enemy ai just throw more health and armor at it and jack up the spawn rates. It's not hard it just narrows down your options but ultimately still trivial, DE knows this and to their credit they are trying to do more interesting things, it is a hard task though.

well, there is an increase in damage from the +100 lvl. pair that with the higher ttk and you do have a damage increase. but the increase in defensive stat was indeed a bad plan because it indeed only just narrowed what was viable, since we still need to kill quickly in multiple game mode. and yeah, i'm glad that they are working on that, as, aside from incarnons, they have actually made an effort to stop power creep and did their best to only expand the viable stats. like, shards are just fine tuning and every new mod is about opening new avenues. hopefully we will also get some power decreeping

also yeah, the torid legit needs a nerf. it just feels like the bramma all over again

[We need to talk about the Ruvox, Incarnons and Objectively correct perks]

It's honestly not just the perk system that need to be rebalanced with incarnons, it's also their sheer power. Some of them are just ludicrously strong, and it just trivialize anything they touch. torid, fellarx, laetum, etc.. they just make steel path, what's supposed to be the hard mode, feel like a breeze. I hope they get touched before they feel mandatory to defeat new enemies

[Primary weapon and their overfocus on crit]

13 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

My brother in christ...

• Bubonico AltSpammer
• Mutalist Cernos
• Proboscis Cernos
• Ogris Napalm
• Basmu
• Phantasma
• Convectrix
• Ignis
• Scourge
• Exergis
• Kohm
• Phenmor
• Felarx
• Phage

 

Just because you only see crit builds everywhere doesn't mean raw status builds aren't a thing at all for primaries. Acolytes probably can tank easily most of these thanks to their damage calculations and status limitations, but it's not like you're forced into using just ONE gun for your entire mission. Whip out your best corrosive Praedos and it's immediately a non-issue. Phantasma built for viral/corro + all heat mods and banes chews through whatever faction you want. Enemies that are status immune are the least common in the game, most of them being bosses or minibosses.

 

Also about Cascadia Empowered, there's one gun where it outperforms just about any other arcane : the Kompressa, by virtue of having over 100% status chance per projectile on a gun that fires about 10 of them per ammo spent and dealing two instances of status per projectile : contact and explosion, thus averaging well over 20 singular activations per ammo spent, or basically at least 15k damage from the arcane per ammo spent. It's more relevant for instant damage, as the bubbles making contact with the target have very low base damage. Mayyyyyyyyyybe worth it on Zakti Prime and Stug ? I'd still prefer base damage on the Zakti though. Or maybe some funny Acrid memes.

 

scrourge prime full status is an absolute monster. slap both damage mods and go viral heat and just watch everything in standard sp get melted, acolyte included. just isn't on necramechs

and for guns that become busted with empowered, don't forget the kohmak line. on pox it's less impressive, but under a certain level, they become instadeath puddlemaker

[Primary weapon and their overfocus on crit]

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

Convenient to stack, doesn't require kills, associated with a strong status effect. I know, it sucks on the Akzani still because Akzani's base damage is abysmal, an issue Empowered uniquely doesn't suffer with for better and worse.

Veered well off topic there. No one except you is arguing about whether Empowered is good or not and not a soul is arm twisting you to purchase it from Cavalero over whatever else you want, all that is being said is that arcanes like Empowered allow weapons that otherwise have been left to rot get a modern glowup (doesn't make them tip top tier but they'll be at least usable in the current game). There are a lot of primary weapons that would like Empowered but just can't get access because they're primaries.

don't waste your time, that guy just doesn't understand build fundamentals and likely rely on others to tell him what's good instead of figuring everything out

[Primary weapon and their overfocus on crit]

11 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

 

I would also point at the direction released content is going in, as long as KPM is the major priority exploration will remain very narrow. The point still stands, more Shivering Contagions less Hunter Munitions (same applies for arcanes).

it's a loop again, they make stuff the player will appreciate right away because there is very little arsenal mastery in the community because gears are made to be straightforward beacuse... i'm not gonna make the gimmick again XD

but, there has been some change recently, greatly helped by the addition of weapon passives right on the modding screen and weapons that are not as forward, like the gotva prime or even the first incarnon guns being crit averse. now there has also been the melee arcanes that added obvious hints to explore more, archons shards do the same, especally the recent ones. and, while i'm not a full fan of the idea, deep archies with the random loadout makes you thinker around. there is hope and i belive in pablo. i mean, it's under him that we got secondary cucumber and those wacky nightwave augments

[Primary weapon and their overfocus on crit]

7 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Secondary Empowered is garbage, what kind of funky build are you even using. That thing only works on shotguns using forced procs like Toxic Lash, but then again *anything* works on Saryn with Toxic Lash. A literal MK 1 Braton can get the job done with Saryn.

this is all i have to say. i couls also link his vid where he just vaporize malice with the akzani using empowered.

[Primary weapon and their overfocus on crit]

16 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Acolytes have a damage cap. Critical hits exceed the cap. You deal 5x or more damage by critting, period. Stop talking out of your nose.

you know you can just say you don't know how to mod your secondaries for status, right? an secondary using secondary empowered doesn't care about that cap, since each proc is a seperate damage instance

[Primary weapon and their overfocus on crit]

10 minutes ago, WindShadow970 said:

I agree, primaries have little to no status support from arcanes. But then again there are very few primaries that lean hard into the status route especially these days, hell they took one of the OG status utility primaries the Torid and turned it into a crit beam. Primaries like Alternox got thrown in the collective garbage bin because it didn't fit the direction of primary weapon being the main killing tool...generally utility and status primaries are a dying breed of weapons.

I mean, the reason there is so little it's because it's a loop. there isn't much more status primaries because there is little support, which is why they don't release more status primaries, because there is no support, and so on. Altough, for the support primaries it's just sad, because those are fantastic for the more loadout centered builds they are encouraging us to to there days. but the blame for the l;ack of those is more on the community, because that's on us for not realizing the potential of those. like, to think people belive the priming ball launcher that is the alternox is useless (the fact it's so hard to obtain doesn't help it, but still)

[Primary weapon and their overfocus on crit]

27 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

No they don't. Your weapon has no crit? You put it away when the Acolyte shows up. It's that simple.

that's a skill issue on your end then, because i can assure you my full status brakk with empowered dissolved that accolyte. A status cap doesn't mean you stop proccing, it just mean you stop stacking the same type. 

[Primary weapon and their overfocus on crit]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

A weapon without crit is, apart from rare exceptions with special mechanics, not something you want either way. It's going to be literally completely useless against anything with a proc cap like Acolytes, why take that handycap?

there would not be a handicap if there was something to help with that. Secondary encumer and cascadia empowered let's you work around that with secondaries. the fact you are even commenting that proves that we need that kind of things for primaries too

[Primary weapon and their overfocus on crit]

So playing with my builds had me realize that primary weapons are sadly lacking support when it comes to pure status builds. Secondaries have Arcnaes like cascadia flare and empowered, secondary shiver and cucumber encumber, and of course cunjunction vorltage, who are either "neutral" in their benefit or clearly focused on status application. Melee has been pretty ok on that front for a while and it even received new tool with the new arcanes. 

However, in primaries case, all status related items as of late have been leaning toward crits or support, but nothing that specificly target status damage builds. Secondary frostbite and blight directly increase crit damage, while obstruct and exhilirate are purely support related. This is leading to primary weapons focused on status to require a redeeming characteristic, like augments or favorable innate element to become something relevant to the more recent content. Thus, more statur related arcanes or mods that don't necessarly favor crit would be extremely welcomed

[Scarab shell and keeping up with the group]

Small little feedback on Scarab shell. the ability is great, there is however a minor but still annoying hiccup with it: since you move at default speed, you easily fall behind the squad when charging it in "linear" mission like sabotage and exterminate.

Simply being able to "sprint" with it by holding down the key would be strongly appreciated to avoid the catching up in kills  and distance

[Incarnon torid is the release kuva bramma 2.0]

50 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Nah it's not even close, Kuva Bramma v1.0 is a thing of terror that can never be replicated, not even with the stupidest incarnon forms to date. The only thing that came close to that was Melee Influence x Dual Ichor Incarnon clouds and they patched it.

 

Just because Incarnon Torid isn't strictly equal to the destructive levels of the first version of the Bramma doesn't mean it's any less unskilled to use. Worst case scenario, consider it a definitive version of the Ignis Wraith, but on steroids. Then you realize the usage rates actually do match, since they basically serve the same purpose, except Torid Incarnon has slight benefits over the Ignis Wraith.

The comparison to the bramma is more about the fact the torid is a very obvious and strong outliar in the current available arsenal, like the bramma was when it released.  although, remember that it was in pre SP time that the bramma came out, so if you bring the torid to a sortie, you kind of end up with the dame skilless absurd destructive power, maybe even stronger due to both modes being able to clear rooms at those levels, but that's beside the point

what i'm pointing is that we have one of the strongest incarnon weapon being able to basicly constantly be in incarnon form due to the fact that there is no real mesure to prevent it aside from maybe being visually impaired. Basicly a weapon who dominate so much, it trivialize any content you pin it againt, like it does with the 60 eyes fragmented boss, who that gun can just melt without having to worry about ammo or aiming for weakpoints

[35.5.3 changes to Dante]

22 minutes ago, Shodian87 said:

It's not though cause they are addressing it.

don't bother trying to reason with them, once you've been going karen mode for over two weeks there is just nothing that can be done

[Incarnon torid is the release kuva bramma 2.0]

i've been toying with the torid and other weapons recently, and the incarnon version of the infested launcher stood out massively. to put it directly, the Torid incarnon is WAY too powerful for how easy it is to use. Currently, the damage on the base mode is pretty good, but  then the incarnon form just become a monster. it would not be a huge problem if the incarnon meter was hard to charge, but in this case it's far from it. Direct hit are pretty easy to obtain, which, paired with the huge magazine, the hitbox of the projectile, and the extremely good ammo economy this gun has (10 ammo per pickup with a 60 reserve for a magazine of 5), makes charging the incarnon something that is basicly made passively. The incarnon form then prove itself extremely efficient, providsing a large pool of "ammo" that deplete relatively slowly for it's charge time. Important to note that i'm saying this without having a riven for it, which makes anyone who possess one likely to have a way stronger weapon thanks to it's very high disposition. 

With all that, the weapon end up feeling like the knell if you didn't even have to activate the buff to begin with. Also, and this is from personal observation, whenever i do late SP nodes in public squad, Torids have been the weapon i end up seeing the most, with only the fellarx and laetum as close seconds. 

[Some power drecreeping would be greatly welcomed]

15 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Balance is important to a degree, I'm not denying that. But I think you and I have very different understandings of this point, and your OP also makes me think that you don't have sufficient experience to make the claims you have. (Not trying to offend, but my first post already pointed out the issues I have.)

How many frames that have been reworked are Pablo's original creation? Nothing is 100% concrete, but it has been inferred that Pablo made Protea, Garuda, rework Saryn, rework Nezha, etc... None of these frames/reworks have been reworked, nor is the community asking for one? This isn't something I religiously keep track of, so if you have an example and the source it's Pablo's creation, I'd appreciate it.

so you forgot the Vauban rework? the thing that literally got the community calling him "Saint Pablo" when it came out? People have been saying vauban is trash for a while due to to CC becoming less relevant and his damage not being steel path viable. 

[Some power drecreeping would be greatly welcomed]

2 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I think Pablo has stated explicitly on some podcast somewhere that, if he could wave a magic wand to undo the team's previous decisions to put stuff like triple digit increases to critical chance on mods, he would do it.

I wish he could, too. We're at the point where common enemies in Deep Arch have EHP in the millions, with Rogue Necramechs having EHP in the hundreds of millions.

At a certain point, DE might have to do something drastic about our damage, because they're starting to run up against the limits of the game engine. Like, consider Nezha's new damage cap on his augment, and think about how ludicrously, extravagantly high that would have seemed just a few years ago. And I don't want the solution to be "well every enemy past this level has 99.9% damage reduction that you can't strip so, so there." 

honestly, turning the steel path scaling down would be the move to do. it was the move that should have been done when it got implemented, instead of introducing acolyte arcanes and galvi mods. we may not be able to go back to pre SP, but retouching it to stabilize the game would be doable. and doing so would also let pablo swing that want and nerf a few things under the guise of adjustment. and i got high hope, as they seem to be testing the water a lot with those QoL updates like abyss and dante

[Some power drecreeping would be greatly welcomed]

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

Because there are more options as a result. The game would still be easy if we reeled in power a bit on some outliers in different departments.

What you mention on CC is more of what I'm talking about. Deep Archimedea is quite fun, and I like the modifiers aspect. What I don't like is mechanics like Damage Attenuation or Overguard where you're asked to homogenize your loadout to do the same thing everyone else's does in terms of either single target damage (attenuation), or overall dps output (overguard). The only time you're rewarded for problem solving is when you bypass the mechanic entirely, such as bringing Trinity to the new Entrati Disruption. That's cool and all, except when you realize how little gear choices are the result there.

This is also why I appreciate the randomized loadouts, because even though most stuff is built the same now, being encouraged to pick a set of gear from a list asks you to step outside your comfort zone to make a loadout work. That's fun for me, for the precise reason a lot of people dislike it.

exactly. the concept of random loadout isn't bad when your gear choice is actually quite large. Base duviri is fun because you don't need one of the 5-7 meta weapon or frames to do it. The second things are added that narrow what's really effective, like total CC immunity or Damage attenuation, the randomized stuff becomes annoying. SP circuit is that for me, if i dont get a minimum of good stuff, i just don't jump in because is know i'd just be a hinderance

[Some power drecreeping would be greatly welcomed]

8 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

You'd be wrong IMO. Quite Shy deleted her interview, but Pablo has gone on record saying that he values "power fantasy" more than forcing challenging content. 

except power fantasy isn't unlimited powercreep. it's still something you got to balance lest it becomes extremly boring, on top or an enormous problem for future devellopment. Like, look at how many frames are pointed at for reworks, and it even include some of pablo's work, who he would have to redo AGAIN to keep up. 

Blowing up rooms can be done in a controlled manner rather than just let it get out of control

[Some power drecreeping would be greatly welcomed]

47 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

If they want to reign in power creep, reign in everything else around it then. 

Don't let enemy armor scale so high that a Basic Heavy Enemy has a Higher EHP than a field boss*. Don't let enemy damage go so high that the community decided that constant invul was the best way to survive in high level content. Don't let enemies have mechanics to encourage interactive gameplay, but then slap on another layer of HP that just pushes the DPS that's the reason for the power creep in the first place.

Seriously I'd actually agree with the Overguard causing issues, if not for the fact that a Max Primed Redirection Harrow with Parasitic Armor and constant Life Steal is LESS effective at base Steel Path despite having exponentially higher EHP than regular Harrow builds. 

*Seriously the fact that a Heavy Gunner has 10x the health of an Acolyte is insane. Imagine playing L4D and a Basic Infected has more health than a Tank. 

oh, absolutly agree. to me, the way steel path was shipped has been horrible and is causing the current issues. like, the concept is great, but double scaling by making everything 100 lvl higher AND have 2.5X multiplier on defensive stat is terrible, especially if you then immediatly need to introduce more power creep in your powercreep buffer mode because the guns aren't strong enough (we love our galvi mods and acolite arcanes, but i wish they didn't have to exist)

[Some power drecreeping would be greatly welcomed]

50 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I mean, Overguard and Shield Gating changes had massive implications to the entire arsenal for powercreep. Zariman Arcanes added straight up power stats like a mod. We have Incarnons, Archon Shards / Emerald Archon Shards, Melee Arcanes, double Amp Arcanes, Sentient Surge for Ocucor, the direction of Warframe kits like Dante, etc.

The power is certainly fun as always, but the game has been ramping up player power to such an unmanageable balance level that we now have to deal with really awful mechanics like Damage Attenuation, enemies with armor that completely ignore armor stripping, Overguard being used quite liberally, and other mechanics. Warframe has always had powercreep over the years, but not to such a degree that instead of nerfing something problematic, we get whole new mechanics that invalidate much of the Warframe roster, or encourage the player to search for the obscure gear choices that completely bypass the crappy mechanics. There's more to the story than simply observing one part, and it's a multi-layered issue that spans many years. It has nothing to do with who the creative director was at the time. The dev to player relationship, the way content has been molded towards accessibility, and several other factors led us here. 

I really hate this conversation of the "Steve vs Reb era" as if one is clearly superior or different from the other. The game's history has been trial and error, buffs, nerfs, unchecked powercreep for years from single loadouts, etc. since forever. Incarnon Torid is no different than Synoid Simulor Mirage, Maiming Strike, or whatever previous flavor that existed at a point in time. Sure, at some point it will fall apart, but that's just the "off the rails" nature Warframe has made a name for itself with. In terms of "state of gameplay", nothing's really changed. Players have always gravitated towards the latest powercreep options for the newest content. Things like Nourish or Torid are prominent because they are tried and true.

The only noticeable difference I've seen with the game over the years is the monetization. Other than that, the experimental, powercrept, solo-with-NPC-teammates gameplay has been like this for a very long time. I still find the game fun, even when missions sometimes feel like you're either doing the whole mission or someone else is playing it for you. The gear collection and possible loadouts are always fun to me. I'm also in that crowd that genuinely likes randomized loadouts as I appreciate my completion of builds and are pushed to playing loadouts I would not normally choose. It really makes me appreciate the 9 years of updates I have experienced and earned rewards from.

there is deffinitively a difference in the approach reb and pablo are taking vs what steve and scott were going. Steve was a director that kept constant;ly going forward with new ideas and concept, and scott was someone who was very much into the straightforwardand simple design. Reb was community manager, and it shows since what she's been doing and acting is very much what someone who spent year dealing with us would go, notably in the expansion of what's already present rather than a whole new thing each year. Pablo is similar, he's the guy that had to feal with redoing what's already been done just to deal with creeping, including his own work. he does his fancy synergy style frames where subsumes feel unwanted, and so on

sure, there's alwayas been a pattern of constant creeping, but for real, it's not as consistant as you seem to beleive. sure, new powerfull stuff has arrived since zariman, but it's mostly been sidegrades, new opportunities. like, compare the arcanes and mods that have come out since then. the steel path arcanes? simple additive stuff that is simple and effective. galvi mods? same. Arcanes of the zariman and after? all things that fundamentally alter how you aproach your modding. recent mods? same things, all alternative and nothing that is purely superior. ok, shards have been an increase, but... again, look at what they ultimatly are, microadjustment that.... you guessed it, made moding more varied. Our modding power has been stable since zariman and the archons, and our weapons since duviri. 

[Some power drecreeping would be greatly welcomed]

2 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

The last time they tried to rein in power with the ammo economy changes they undermined it just a few months later by releasing garbage like the incarnon torid.

I think the new team at this point has pretty much given up on providing challenge outside of randomized content, and has settled on giving players their desired dopamine factories, as long as it doesn't break things too hard. Just riding it out until the game completely falls apart from creep in 5 years.

incarnon are legit the only one of the only few thingsthat comes to mind from the Reb era that was just pure powercrrep. like, if you look at weapon release other than them, everything has been very tame, especially signature weapons kinda getting held back in preperation for their primed variant later. I think it still very much possible to see numbers getting tweaked again, to at least stabilize the game like it kinda was pre steel path (when you launch a game mode so overscaled you decide to introduce power creep to patch it instead of just lowering the scaling...). Like, with the 2 big WoL and balance update we got with dante and dagath, i would not be surprised if they start doing more major changes like what they did with melee a couple of time. 

I would also imagine that pablo would be very much interested in that kind of decreeping, not only is he the one that see his work become obsolete (looking at the vauban rework), but also because the constant reworking take some time away from new content, who already is split into two by sp and starchart both needing to be balanced

[Some power drecreeping would be greatly welcomed]

I have been playing since 2016, properly starting by the time sand of inaros would ship the frame that wouldBecome my mains for many years. In those years i've player, ther eis one thing i never failed to notice, and it was the slow but constant powercreep. back then sedna and it's lvl 35+ enemies were "the high levels". it's a great change to today where we now have content with lvl 400 enemies. However, with our rise in power that allows such content to exist also cause older equipment to strongly fall off, become completly unviable unless thrown through multiple loops, Warframes that were so beloved falling off and needing rework to do content they were never originally designed to tackle

All this to say, The game could use some power decreeping. the recent change and limitation put on the subsumed variant of nourish and eclipse turned out great, and i wish we will see more of this. It is obvious that the playerbase is now used to it's power, and it's obviously impossible to go back to 2016 level of power. Howerver, it is possible to touch things up to bring back steel path back to it's original goal of being the  powercreep buffer, the place where we test our mastery instead of the breezing through we've been having. This is coming from a long time fan of the game who want to see it continue for years and belive some decreeping would allow more design space for incredible future content

[Creating a new era of health usage: building uppon the rage/hunter adrenaline changes]

4 hours ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

Or a dragon key that outright removes all shields.

dragon keys free up a mod slot but are just a pain to manage in the gear wheel and way too easy to forget. I get the idea, but it's very much a recipe for some wonk

[Creating a new era of health usage: building uppon the rage/hunter adrenaline changes]

The recent changes to the two mods have been a much welcomed addition to the game, as overguard was indeed a problem to shieldless frames, just like shield ospreys were way back then when they could give shields to inaros.

On this however, a few of the edge case of rage users werelooked over, Notably the quite frequently mentioned here rage oberon build. On this i would say it's a prime time to make health do a much needed comeback in high end build relevance by building on the recent rage changes. Why not explore mods who would provide a similar effect to parasitic armor without requiring a subsume? A mod that would turn all shield into armor or health would greatly increase the diversity in builds, new strategies would emerge, and shield gating would not be as dominating, since survivable amount of health/ehp could be achieved by more frames. 

and yes, you can see this also as feedback on parasitic armor, as it ovbiously provide some of the effect sugested above. however, the issue with parasitic armor is that it is a subsume, blocking you from using others, yes, primarely, but most importantly, in case like the oberon builds that have been mentioned across multiple other feedback threads, also cost you one of your abilities, which you might have desired to keep.