HolidayPi3
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Posts posted by HolidayPi3
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Wow I miss that UI
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Standard Hek based on it's stats alone (i.e no Scattered Justice) does not "blow the standard Tigris out of the water", no.
It is all about Scattered Justice when comparing the Hek to other guns.
Which only really adds onto the point-- don't you think Scattered Justice is too effective, as opposed to Vaykor Hek not being effective enough (especially if we're talking investment costs)?
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Enough to warrant the time and resources you have to put into it to get that result. Enough to warrant picking it up over the regular Hek + Scattered Justice.
Max rank Syndicate weapon. Tons of influence. MR 12.
It needs to reflect this.
TBH I would still use the Vaykor Hek over the standard Hek because it will destroy the standard Hek as long as you shoot for headshots. Missing isn't even punished as badly because you have twice the mag size, and you can go from target to target faster because of the increased fire rate. I'll consistently use the Vaykor over the standard because I'll consistently perform better with the Vaykor than with the standard.
From a balance perspective, do we really want the Vaykor to blow the Hek out of the water? The standard Hek is already arguably the king of guns. To make the Vaykor flat out better would be complete overkill. Hek, I would argue that the Vaykor is already better.
The standard Hek already stands far above the standard Cernos, and IMO should not be out damaging the standard Tigris the way it does. The Tigris isn't as user-friendly as the Hek (half the mag size, weird trigger), and should absolutely out damage the Hek... but it doesn't. There's no reason that the Vaykor Hek should get a buff of the same magnitude that these two weapons got.
Material costs? Wouldn't you say Scattered Justice is too effective for its material cost, as opposed to the Vaykor being not effective enough for its material costs? The Vaykor Hek is plenty strong. It outdoes most of the other guns in the game as it is. It's definitely worthy of being a MR12 syndicate blah blah. You don't think Augmented Hek is just too strong for what its material costs are?
This all being said though-- I do think they should have picked a different gun. I also think they need to clean up the MR system so we can actually have conversations about this and understand how they choose to power weapons. I agree with you that power should be relative to where it stands in MR / Syndicate rankings, but DE's balance is all over the place, and it's ambiguous if that's actually what they're going for.
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172k burst DPS / 72k sustained DPS Vaykor Hek lololololol
Of course I would never run it without punch through, and I don't think I'd ever fire it at this RoF... but yeah.
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Crit headshots will be incredibly delicious on the Vaykor Hek.
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Does anyone know if there are any non-statistic changes to the Hek? Reduced spread / recoil to help pair its crit chance with headshots? Crit headshot are no joke... but I suppose 200% multishot isn't either.
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Would headshot multiplier + crit be enough to compete? The Hek's spread is certainly good enough to land headshots. I do it regularly with the standard Hek. Maybe they altered spread / recoil too or did something other than a statistical change. Would be cool.
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You're going to have to gimmie some time to do the math but I am pretty sure they will get the same amount of damage.
Cause 200% Multishot is like 3x the damage~
Then we have an increased crit chance which means we can add crit mods to it further increasing the crit multiplier from 2x to 3x then....
Pretty much the same thing no?
Crit headshots with the Hek might make up for the multishot. Maaaaayyyybeeee.
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A long while ago I got called out for using the Trinity avatar (the free one) in a topic about nerfing something. It was along the lines of "lol trin user talking about balance gg l2p a non broken frame"
Also I notice that whenever I do butt heads with another fellow forum-goer, it's usually someone with a Rhino avatar *shrug* probably just a coincidence
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TBH, Mirage will make EVERY gun into a god gun.
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If you hate them as much as they hate you, then you'll take their primary gun and turn it against them ;)
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Vaykor Baguet-- I mean.. Vaykor Hind.
Haha? :( -
I said mods affecting the charge mechanic, not just the charge mechanic. Some people weren't sure which mods reduced the charging speed of the bows and what reload mods actually did. If you're going to try to refute my arguments then don't take them out of context. I mentioned mods twice in two different posts already. Not sure why you're purposely misrepresenting my argument.
Bottomline is that WF is a complicated game with a lot of complex mechanics and systems. I just find it weird that you guys singled this one "issue" out of many many other complex things in the game that you need to look up in the wiki.
This one, right?
Yeah huh. And I've seen plenty of new players confused on what reload and fire rate mods do with bows and had to go to the wiki to look it up. So let's get rid of the charge mechanic on bows too, right?
You're referring to the complete removal of a base mechanic because the mods' interaction with it are confusing. I don't see either of us having talked about removing anything-- so how was this even relevant? Stating that something is unacceptable doesn't mean "REMOVE IT!" like you might think. In fact, it probably means that whatever is unacceptable needs to be fleshed out and explained.
Either way... that's a problem with the mods interaction & description being ambiguous. Not the charge trigger itself. The trigger is perfectly understandable.
Duplex-auto on the other hand, just like the mods you were referring to, has no information about itself. It's not self explanatory, and it's not explained in game.
If the mods were confusing people, then re-tooltip the mods. If the trigger mechanism is confusing people, then handle the trigger.
I'm more confused as to why you talked about removing the charge mechanic in the first place when Vargras didn't suggest that anything get removed-- only added. It was a completely unrelated statement to begin with. My initial post was directed at you comparing the charge mechanism + focus beam to duplex-auto. Which is a bad analogy because the charge trigger directly affects DPS, and duplex auto doesn't. You can accomplish the exact same feats with the Tigris using duplex auto or semi auto. Completely different story with bows and charging, as well as the focus beam. That's why your analogy didn't work.
Plus-- I'm of the camp that there should definitely be more information about mod interaction with weapons AND warframes. Have I gotten used to it? Hek yes I have. Does that make it intuitive for users? No it doesn't. We should always be striving to make WF better, and having more intuitive, explained mechanics will.
Either way-- I only got pulled into talking about this because you lumped me and Vargras into the same boat even though we both quoted you for different things. I just came here to point out an inaccurate analogy ;)
Also:
Bottomline is that WF is a complicated game with a lot of complex mechanics and systems. I just find it weird that you guys singled this one "issue" out of many many other complex things in the game that you need to look up in the wiki.
This is a topic about the Tigris' firing mechanics-- why would I be talking about other game mechanics in a topic about the Tigris' firing mechanics?
Edit: Added relevant quotes
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Wow that was such convoluted mental gymnastics to cover up the fact that you both missed the point. Bottomline, is that there are mechanics just as "complicated" as the duplex mechanism where you need to look them up on the wiki yet I don't see you saying that they're unacceptable. But whatever, it's pointless for me to argue at this point.
Probably looked like convoluted mental gymnastics because I was trying to explain the duplex-auto mechanic. *rimshot*
Jokes aside, yes, I would agree with you here-- there are other mechanics that require us to look at the wiki. Charge is not one of these, however. That's also a poor comparison. I don't think I need to point out why because it would end up looking like convoluted mental gymnastics.
However if I'm capable of convoluted mental gymnastics, it begs the question of whether or not I can really miss the point, doesn't it? Wouldn't someone who can look way too deeply into supposedly simple things be able to grasp what you would consider to be simple as well? Just a thought. Maybe I'm not as smart as you =/
"Charge" is a self explanatory term. It makes you think of charging things. "Duplex Auto" isn't self explanatory. It makes you think of ... Duplex Autoing things (???). That's pretty much it. *shrug*
That being said-- I don't think either of us have ever stated that those "other" unexplained mechanics are acceptable either. This is a topic about the Tigris' firing mechanism, so obviously we're going to talk about the Tigris. I quite clearly remember the other poster saying that he doesn't believe we should have to consult the wiki for any information that should be in the game already (item usage specifically).
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Way to miss the point. You guys make the flimsy claim that the duplex mechanism is so darn freaking complicated that you need to go to the wiki to figure it out. That's why I bring up the charge mechanism and how the mods affecting them are just as "complicated" as the duplex mechanism, which is not very complicated at all. Yet I don't see you guys complaining about those "complicated" mechanics regarding bow charge and reload/fire rate mods.
Actually... his point went completely over your head. "Charge" is much more descriptive of a word than "Duplex-Auto." When you apply the word "Charge" within the context of "Weapon" and "Trigger," very few things come to mind. Most likely, you'll instantly come to the conclusion that when you pull the trigger, you will be charging your weapon. Not complex at all.
Now when you see "Duplex-Auto" within the context of "Weapon" and "Trigger," or even "Double-barreled shotgun," I highly doubt that "If I hold down the button it'll shoot one round, and if I let go, so will the other. If I tap the button it'll fire two shots." will come to your mind.
I challenge you to go up to someone and ask them what comes to mind when you say the word "charge weapon." Then ask them what comes to mind when you say "duplex-auto weapon"
...I didn't think that would actually need explanation. Definitely wasn't as complicated to grasp as "duplex-auto" ;)
You can make the ridiculous claim that my analogy is poor, blah blah blah, but I had to laugh that you're making the claim that the duplex mechanism is so confusing that you had to go to youtube or the wiki.
I just stated that your analogy was poor, was not applicable for what you were trying to argue. If that offended you-- sorry.
Also, DE just stated that the alt-fire thing was a bug and that it's not coming back. Case closed.
Indeed they have. Unfortunately a decision doesn't make a trigger mechanism any less awkward to handle for certain users. I've gotten used to it, but that also doesn't magically make the trigger more intuitive. It just means I've gotten used to an unintuitive feature. *shrug*
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The HK21 that inspired this idea is an LMG Variant of a fairly accurate Assault rifle that even has a SNiper Variant, PSG1 is a sniper sorta variant of the G3, HK21 is an LMG variant of it. So, while it sounds derpy, its not so far fetched.
Ive got 18 acc on my Soma Prime and I still see it as being quite accurate, except when firing like clear across the room that Phorid Spawns in, from stair well, to stairwell, then it loses acc, but LMGs are meant for mid range anyway. To leave it at 33.3 acc like the Tiberon would be a bit much. 20 isnt so bad, its still pretty accurate, and bursting will mean you reset acc after every burst.
As for SUppression, that idea goes out the window cuz there is no "suppression" in this game. Firing at the enemy doesnt make them stop and dive for cover, instead, the mobs just keep coming.
I see where you're coming from. In that case-- why lessen the damage? Does the HK21 use a lower powered cartridge? I don't think you need to lessen the accuracy either if it's literally the same gun but slightly modified for a different usage. I don't know the specifics on the G3, HK21, or PSG1, so feel free to correct me here.
That being said, I think you're being too lenient with your balancing here-- not trying to say the concept is bad.
On a different note-- I think this whole "use the same gun but for a completely different role / playstyle" was what DE was trying to get at with the mod card system. I think we were supposed to be able to modify our weapons in a way that redefines the usage of guns and tailors them towards our personal preferences. Uh... we see what happened to that idea. I suppose that's what happens when we have to use those slots for damage, damage, damage, and... damage.
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If that's the only points you saw then you need to read more carefully.
Yeah huh. And I've seen plenty of new players confused on what reload and fire rate mods do with bows and had to go to the wiki to look it up. So let's get rid of the charge mechanic on bows too, right?
Why is the charge mechanism of bows and the focus beam mechanism okay but not the Tigris' mechanism isn't okay just because a bug allowed you to single shot alt-fire?
Comparing the charge mechanic of a bow is an extremely poor analogy for the duplex-auto mechanism on the Tigris. Getting rid of the charge on a bow or Opticor would directly affect its DPS. Switching out the duplex auto on the Tigris does no such thing, as you can perform the exact same things with semi auto as you can with duplex auto on Tigris. To not have a charge mechanic on a bow would make a world of difference.
Please stop using that poor analogy. They are not the same.
Edit: Edited in both relevant quotes
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Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Plenty of weapons are far better at taking out tough units like Bombards / HGunners, but aren't as great at trash clearing. Some weapons melt entire groups of enemies, but would be a waste to use on single threats.
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Basically, less acc, still burst fire, less dmg, but alot more ammo in the mag. Give us a very punchy LMG option to the Somas and Gorgons.
Less accuracy & damage but retains the burst trigger-- Uh, I don't think low accuracy pairs well with burst-fire. The whole point imo of burst is to preserve the accuracy of semi auto fire with the lethality of full auto. It strikes a balance. To lessen the two things that burst-fire tries to emphasize while still restricting usage to burst fire is not very wise.
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Literally just confirmed by Steve on the devstream-- Alt fire won't be coming back. He feels it's not part of the intended design and that it's strong without it.
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Literally just confirmed by Steve on the devstream - Alt fire won't be coming back. It wasn't part of intended design and they feel it's strong without it.
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It has twice as much base damage to compensate for its lack of the syndicate mod. I will provide some example builds. Note that I consider Seeking Fury to be core to both weapons.
Hek:
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Sorry to butt in on yours and RealP's convo-- but I would suggest this Hek build at 103k burst and 41k sustained. Beats out the Tigris, and has enough fire rate that it won't have that awkward delay that screws up taking out multiple spaced out enemies.
It outdoes the Tigris in DPS... and I'm not sure how I feel about that. For a weapon that's easier to use in pretty much every way, I don't think it should outdo the Tigris in the only thing that the Tigris does well.
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To be honest, the Tigris fit me like a glove from the first time I used it. I just want to understand as many viewpoints as possible. For me it's less important to be "right" and more important to see as many sides as possible. If people say duplex-auto is uncomfortable, I'll take all my experiences with shotguns in video games, read through their complaints, then try to feel for myself the discomfort that they feel.
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This... it's shockingly enlightening despite being a seemingly small detail on a playstyle. Before I drone on further I'll say thanks for answering.
I'm actually genuinely surprised yet at the same time things make a great deal more sense to me now on this issue, at least in a theoretical sense. I'm the kind of player who very, very rarely finds myself using ADS for most anything unless I'm dawdling about in a low level mission. When using a Charge weapon for instance I never* ADS during a charge. However even if I can't see through the eyes of other players I can still see whether or not they're ADSing based on observing movement speeds.
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Just wanted to pop in and say that this analytical approach to things is awesome. Keep it up-- I genuinely feel that this is the best way to facilitate good communication & gather the most useful information. Kudos to you both. I'd venture to say that this makes feedback easier for DE to sort through as well.
That being said-- just like you, I'm still in my camp that an alt fire would be a welcome feature / option, but I do have a much better idea as to what the appeal of duplex-auto is. I do understand completely why you wouldn't want it outright replaced, however-- though I don't think I ever really advocate for outright removals preference-based functionalities (oh hey-- that's why I'm here in the first place, huh?)
Opinions: What's Better, Hek +Synd Mod Or Tigris?
in Players helping Players
Posted
I was in this dilemma awhile ago. I just built both. 0 regrets.
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But here are the main questions I would ask:
1. Duplex-auto or semi-auto?
2. Two barrels or four?
3. Do you play Nekros often? Tigris slices stuff up up for maximum farm. Hek doesn't.