Exodess
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Posts posted by Exodess
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First of all, I want to say how much I appreciate your work and many-many thanks. You did just absolutely awesome AAA+ quest. You just moved The Warframe to the top level. DE you're amazing people doing amazing game! No doubt it was worth all waiting and even much more. You exceeded my expectations by 120%!And because the quest and its cinematics are so EPIC, I would like to have an option to replay at least cinematics part, even if it would be without any interactions, just video. Pleeeease, such epic things can't be onetime things!
Definitely.
The "boss" fights in the second-to-last mission alone (especially if you elect to duel the Stalker before you start getting the Moon shunted out of the Void) are extremely well thought-out and enjoyable. This goes doubly so since most of the challenges besides Stalker himself are not built into the existing damage mechanics of the game (which are extremely unbalanced on extreme ends of both sides of the spectrum in terms of scaling.)
Truth be told, I always wanted to have a replay option with the Archwing mission, if only because of the triumphant moment you first plug it in and outwit a Balor Fomorian for the first time.
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- Iron Skin has received the following changes:
- Iron Skin has damage absorb period at beginning and is affected by armour, like Snow Globe and Tectonics.
Meanwhile Saryn's Molt still dies within a milisecond on high tier missions and her Toxic Lash DR is laughable since it only works while blocking forcing Saryn to main her Melee weapon, severely reducing her playstyle possibilites (not mention blocking won't save you while surrounded or trying to kill a Toxic Ancient, Saryn a Posion-theme Frame gets completely obliterated by Toxic Ancients, the irony)...gotta be honest here, as a Saryn player I am a bit salty about these generous Rhino buffs, a Frame that was already considered top tier, meanwhile Saryn's whole 'rework' didn't elevate her up from her low/mid tier Frame status.
As it is now, Saryn is more of a Melee Frame than Rhino since Rhino isn't forced into Melee while using his Iron Skin. This is getting really absurd.
Saryn needs some love, she's not a in a good spot.
My thoughts exactly. I'd forgive them in the interim because of the scale of work they put into the patch that launched today, but I know they're going to just leave Saryn to rot (sorry, "marinate") a few more months before the topic is abandoned entirely.
- Iron Skin has received the following changes:
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Madurai - Seems to be the path for those looking to do the most amount of damage. Gives you the ability to shoot a laser out of your chest for a duration.
Unairu - Lets you petrify enemies. Higher levels grant passive bonus to petrify and reduce enemy armor, and grant Tenno bonus armor.
Vazarin -Those who want to survive longer, this gives you and nearby allies health in forms of waves.
Zenurik-
Naramon - Lets you confuse enemies, increase crit chance on melee weapons, grant allies invisibility, reveals weakness of enemies and disarms enemies.
Really wishing I could have seen the skills before picking one, because I would have chosen Naramon. Unairu seemed like a good way to buff my Valkyr based on the description but the description turned out to be a bit deceiving and the actual attack itself (petrify ray) seems pretty lousy, and the Naramon's crit + "weaknesses" (assuming this works like Sonar) add a damage multiplier + better CC than Unairu can match. Madurai sounds impressive but doesn't really pan out in the endgame unless the damage can somehow scale against armor.
I also don't know if Unairu's armor buffs scales to your Warframe or if it's a flat amount, or even how much it's worth. There's a severe visibility-on-the-numbers problem with these skill trees right now.
The whole laser-out-of-chest thing is really hard to aim (for Unairu at least) and doesn't feel very limit-breaky. It feels like a watered-down Gammacor with bad aim.
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I got a few preferred options.
I can take my nerfed Infested Saryn, the formerly-known-as Super Saryn, and see how long I can survive against Stalker.
Or I can take my Zanuka-Primed Valkyr, the Kymera Plus, and obliterate him without a second thought.
Kind of on the fence about it, because I want this to be an epic duel.
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New Saryn can be cheesy (perma Viral proc on the whole tile, boosted Miasma is still the strongest radial, Spore chains do potentially huge damage over time) but is reigned-in enough to not be especially exploitable. Pretty much all arguments that new Saryn is weak involve comparisons to exploitable frames. DE seem to have gone out of their way to not make new Saryn exploitable, which is a good thing. Maybe DE should cull exploitable elements of other frames and fix the damage/scaling system, instead of giving Saryn a niche among the game-trivializers and factory-farmers.
Thing is, they chose to keep Saryn at its present tier without any announcements (or presumably any plans at all) to remove scaling on the abilities you mentioned. If that is their ultimate intention, then DE is working in reverse and should have seriously considered culling the strongest skillsets before they started muddying up others. By electing not to go that route, they basically chickened out of upsetting one part of the player base at the expense of another, which is now provided a legitimate complaint. Balancing will always be judged on the strongest available options, and Saryn - while not a bad frame in its own right - simply cannot compare to its competition in a metagame environment in terms of damage or mitigation either mechanically or numerically.
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Call me what you want, but I don't see why I should expect and demand drastic and immediate changes after 2 weeks of data collection on usage on the grounds that "it's obvious" and the devs are "just being stubborn".
And round and round we go...
It doesn't take a whole lot of depth to see Saryn needs a few of the aforementioned-a-million-times-in-this-thread tweaks to resolve the strongest arguments. These could hardly be called balancing issues, and it is purely the devs being stubborn.
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At this point, you're just assuming the devstream don't want to do it because they don't want to do it. They told us what they were doing. We know how they do it. Wait. Tinfoil hat theories do nothing but spur on bitterness.
At this point, you're just in denial.
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Halo 2 and 4 multi-player? Planetside 2? Warframe ? League? That's just off the top of my head. What part of "we're collecting usage statistics so we don't jump to conclusions" sounds like "done" to you?
City of Heroes started getting much better about their balancing near the end of their life cycle as well.
But seriously, it doesn't take a whole lot of depth to see Saryn needs a few of the aforementioned-a-million-times-in-this-thread tweaks (namely the 5-second Molt invulnerability recommendation, and to remove the irrelevant HP/Armor change) to resolve the strongest arguments. These could hardly be called balancing issues, and it is purely the devs being stubborn.
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that's appears to only be an issue when the frame in question has some kind of niche to its name, seeing as that is not the case for rhino there isn't much reason to fear.
That is true. Rhino does at least have the benefit of a dump stat and proper CC.
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now i wonder if we will actually get rhino rework and deluxe skin this week
Recent experience says you really don't want a rework on your favorite Warframe.
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this thread is still open wtf is the point of a feedback thread is DE bloody ignores it...
It's essentially a dumping ground for all Saryn-related topics. The only alternative was to start deleting threads, and that would have caused an even bigger stink.
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I feel like people who are saying Saryn is bad now just haven't built her right or have found the right way to be playing her now.
On what content are you basing these observations, exactly?
Why is this still pinned? DE said they're done with the rework tweaks for now. Everything discussed here now is now pointless for the time being. Can a moderator either lock it and unpin the topic of just unpin the God-forsaken thread?
They're basically using it as a dumping ground for suggestion/feedback posts, just as it has served since it was first created. It serves no functional purpose.
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I hope you watched the devstream.
Indeed I did, and it reinforced my opinion. It's clear they're not going to give Saryn any more attention at this point because they've already bilked us with her new skin and U18 is around the corner. They'll only start working on Saryn again when they need a hype tool to sell Prime Access for Saryn Prime. It's marketing brilliance born out of pointed negligence. The realization of this is extremely disheartening, especially since this was supposed to be a much-vaunted update to her ability set.
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Meanwhile, Saryn still sits in the trash can crying...
Looks like DE has given up on Saryn. I didn't know they hated her so much that they'd waste that much company time finding creative ways to make her absolute garbage in the metagame.
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I feel the need to emphasize this here because it's more relevant to this topic than the original thread it was posted under.
Let's all agree that Saryn's balance concerns have to do with one glaring problem with the game: There is no ceiling on the difficulty.
I believe it was quoted somewhere that if it has stats, players will be driven to kill it. In gaming, this dates back to the Lord British Postulate, though given some ancient myths and stories of heroism I'd say this behavior has probably existed as part of human nature since before our distant ancestors started walking on two legs.
As long as enemies have no maximum level or stat scaling, Warframe abilities and weapons will continue to be judged based on either A) how fast they can kill an enemy of such high level that its armor prevents any but a certain subset of options being anywhere near functional under that scenario, or B) how well its non-damage components prevent players from being damaged either through enfeeblement or absorption mechanics.
Now before this stirs up any of the ultra-endgame metagamers, I completely respect that there are players who enjoy playing hundreds of rounds of defense or hours of Survival and I'm not promoting a cap on endless mission enemy levels. What's done is done. What I do promote, however, is that even if weapons cannot all scale against enemies, at least Warframe functionality (this not just meaning "damage") should be comparably effective when judged alongside its peers no matter the level of enemy being fought. That is, every Warframe should bring something to the table that is unique or paired well enough that another particular Warframe does not outclass it by default, which is currently the precise issue with Saryn: This newfound diversity bent she's on has killed her scalability.
So, as long as players are trying to kill something that has no real limit, we are always going to compare the tools used to face those challenges. The Warframes aren't just weapons though -- they're our characters, our avatars. Some of us are particularly attached to certain ones as a result of these being an extension of our virtual identity, which adds a whole new dimension to this argument.
My point being: DE needs to recognize that these gimmicks they're sticking on Saryn need to be judged on the basis of whether they will make her comparable (White Knights, please read before you hurl more blind insults: This means relatably equal to, though not superior) to alternative Warframes in a similar scenario under the harshest conditions, and not just plug holes in her design. Because, right now, I feel they are suffering severe tunnel-vision, in that they are not focusing on what everyone else can do in comparison to her.
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Let's all agree that Saryn's balance concerns have to do with one glaring problem with the game: There is no ceiling on the difficulty.
I believe it was quoted somewhere that if it has stats, players will be driven to kill it. In gaming, this dates back to the Lord British Postulate, though given some ancient myths and stories of heroism I'd say this behavior has probably existed as part of human nature since before our distant ancestors started walking on two legs.
As long as enemies have no maximum level or stat scaling, Warframe abilities and weapons will continue to be judged based on either A) how fast they can kill an enemy of such high level that its armor prevents any but a certain subset of options being anywhere near functional under that scenario, or B) how well its non-damage components prevent players from being damaged either through enfeeblement or absorption mechanics.
Now before this stirs up any of the ultra-endgame metagamers, I completely respect that there are players who enjoy playing hundreds of rounds of defense or hours of Survival and I'm not promoting a cap on endless mission enemy levels. What's done is done. What I do promote, however, is that even if weapons cannot all scale against enemies, at least Warframe functionality (this not just meaning "damage") should be comparably effective when judged alongside its peers no matter the level of enemy being fought. That is, every Warframe should bring something to the table that is unique or paired well enough that another particular Warframe does not outclass it by default, which is currently the precise issue with Saryn: This newfound diversity bent she's on has killed her scalability.
So, as long as players are trying to kill something that has no real limit, we are always going to compare the tools used to face those challenges. The Warframes aren't just weapons though -- they're our characters, our avatars. Some of us are particularly attached to certain ones as a result of these being an extension of our virtual identity, which adds a whole new dimension to this argument.
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She's not useless, just not as on par as other casters, or melees, or whatever DE thinks her role is...
Precisely.
You know that's bullS#&$. Any warframe can do fine in a typical two-C run in the void. The claims of Saryn being useless are getting slanderous and sensational. It's like the people posting don't actually know how to play, requiring mass CC to stay alive and crazy overtuned offense to kill effectively.
I should "Learn to play?" How about you "Learn to read."
Saryn is the Hummer of all Warframes right now. She's expensive, has lots of overhead and high maintenance costs, and is horrifically inefficient.
Adding new mechanics on an already complicated build, which don't benefit Glaive-throwers or kills triggered by power use -- two things Saryn's power design is specifically meant to excel at despite failing to be effective after a certain level -- is nothing more than your design team working way too hard and spending far too much company time trying to find ways to trick players into thinking the Warframe is getting buffed when the additions are ultimately useless in the situations that are being complained about.
Pick any Warframe out there except Oberon and you will find that it offers something Saryn has, but better and cheaper. Saryn doesn't have a role right now that can scale. It's a diverse, freakish mess. It's not tanky enough to melee, despite having half its mechanics based on a melee role. It's multipliers don't match other nuke frames, and have range and cost penalties to boot. It's CC (Miasma's Stun) is so momentary as to be virtually non-existent except as an emergency escape tool. Its mitigation mechanic (Molt, the poor man's Decoy) has such low health that any map with Level 50+ enemies will plow through it in under a second, rendering it so useless by that point that this patch's increase of the duration is more of a joke than an honest effort by any measure.
I did not say she's useless. I said she's inferior to the alternatives.
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Actually, Oberon has a stun with his ultimate, can proc radiation, and has a heal skill that isn't an augment / band-aid mod. Everything else is spot on.
I stand corrected. Even Oberon has something better than Saryn.
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Saryn Changes
- Reduced the damage of Saryn’s Miasma in Conclave.
- Reduced the particle FX on Saryn’s Spore when spreading between enemies to address performance issues.
- Doubled the duration of Saryn’s Molt.
- Saryn’s Spores now cost half normal energy when cast on Molt.
- Destroying an enemy affected by Saryn’s Spores with Toxic Lash will now restore 2 energy to Saryn.
- Saryn’s Toxic Lash can now be recast to refresh its duration.
- Fixed Saryn’s Miasma being able to be recast repeatedly after using Spores.
- Fixed Saryn’s Spore creating tiny Spores on some enemies.
- Fixed an issue where no energy was being returned from enemies affected by Spore while Toxic Lash was active if the melee strikes were lethal. Lethal strikes on Spore'd enemies with an active Toxic Lash will now regenerate energy as intended from the last hotfix.
Remember what I said about Band-Aids not fixing broken bones?
Saryn is the Hummer of all Warframes right now. She's expensive, has lots of overhead and high maintenance costs, and is horrifically inefficient.
Adding new mechanics on an already complicated build, which don't benefit Glaive-throwers or kills triggered by power use -- two things Saryn's power design is specifically meant to excel at despite failing to be effective after a certain level -- is nothing more than your design team working way too hard and spending far too much company time trying to find ways to trick players into thinking the Warframe is getting buffed when the additions are ultimately useless in the situations that are being complained about.
Pick any Warframe out there except Oberon and you will find that it offers something Saryn has, but better and cheaper. Saryn doesn't have a role right now that can scale. It's a diverse, freakish mess. It's not tanky enough to melee, despite having half its mechanics based on a melee role. It's multipliers don't match other nuke frames, and have range and cost penalties to boot. It's CC (Miasma's Stun) is so momentary as to be virtually non-existent except as an emergency escape tool. Its mitigation mechanic (Molt, the poor man's Decoy) has such low health that any map with Level 50+ enemies will plow through it in under a second, rendering it so useless by that point that this patch's increase of the duration is more of a joke than an honest effort by any measure.
Also, Molt is now utterly reliant on a Syndicate Mod to make it synergize with the rest of the screwed-up playstyle Saryn has been squeezed into, and the effectiveness of said mod was reduced because DE felt need to make a pointless change to her eHP. Why even give us an 20-point armor buff at all given how weak it is? Simple: it's there to trick ignorant players into thinking she was buffed.
I am insulted that, after all the money I've paid into DE for quality work over the years, that this is the kind of crap being doled out on one of my favorite frames. I am frustrated because I know you can do better. I have seen you do better. Frost and Valkyr are perfect examples. Your lack of commitment to this matter deeply upsets me.
I won't go into another tangent about what needs addressing. We got a megathread with 100 pages covering that territory, which has been grossly ignored. It doesn't help that the white knights around here are basing their opinions on level 20-30 enemies, if any experience at all, which is diluting the feedback pool (and giving DE a source of feedback they can opt to favor in ignorance of the overwhelming facts that prove Saryn otherwise scales horribly.)
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Seriously DE, is there a clause somewhere that says "I have to come up with an original solution every time I encounter a problem, no matter how inane or functionally obtuse it may be?"
Here we have a thread with nearly 100 pages of great, easy-to-implement solutions. Yet, despite this, you chose to complicate Saryn even more than before by adding beneficial mechanics that work against her remaining strengths and fix none of the scaling issues or weaknesses.
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of course not; this megathread is to keep the from page from being filled with complaints, not actualy getting feedback to improve anything. The various itterations of "you #*($%%@ up" can be easily ignored, in favor of the oh-so-valuable "Thank You DE" threads. If saryn gets a signifigant improvement in any way, I'd buy the new skin on principle alone.
Yeah, NCSoft did the same thing when City of Heroes was being shut down years ago. They basically told everyone to email a specific address, which was essentially a black hole.
Watch the next devstream - they'll either not mention Saryn at all or, through willful ignorance, act like the changes are fair and balanced and that everyone agrees with them.
I honestly don't even know why the hell they spent so much time and energy on this change. It seems like a waste of company resources.
Okay so after messing around with Saryn for the past couple of days after her rework, I think we CAN all agree she needs more survivability ,more base range on her abilities *cough* miasma and lower energy costs on her abilities *cough* miasma. Yeah she's fun but fun doesn't cut it when you're playing high level content. Give molt the snow globe treatment and also I really think she can use a 100% corrosive proc each time miasma is used (-25% enemy armor, does not stack, casting miasma again will just refresh proc duration and deal another set of DoT). Oh and maybe make it have 4 seconds base duration instead of the laughable 3 seconds that she has right now. Do that and maybe we can finally call it a 'rework' instead of nerf.
So much this.
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Bruh, if the only thing you can do is crunch numbers, it might explain why you don't find this rework very fun. Stop focusing on what "was" and refocus on what "is." She still obliterates everything on the normal starchart, which is the only stuff that's supposed to be accounted for in balance. Endless mode scaling is outside the standard scope of the game.
Yes, there are Warframes with higher damage potentials right now. They're probably in line for reworks/touchups too.
Yes, this game is currently about powerfarming and Saryn is no longer as useful for that, but this game isn't supposed to be about powerfarming, so DE is working on changing that.
I'm not saying "Saryn is more powerful." I'm saying Saryn is more fun. Unless, of course, your definition of fun is pressing one button and looking at numbers pop up on a screen.
If by "Fun" you mean "Energy Hog", then yes -- Saryn is the Hummer of Warframes.
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In my opinion Sarin got a major nerf in her rework.
I will now endever to explain why I feel this way buy compering her to her old low duration self as well as to other reworked/new frames.
Afterwords I'll go over her abilities and give some suggestions for possible buffs.
A) Comparison:
1) To old Sarin: While not the best end game (+40m T4 S) frame out there Sarin's Miasma did do app 13000 Corosive damage in a significant aoe for about 100 energy (depending on build). While not the most fun way to play this game (personally I hated it) the power of this build is without question having Miasma damage, decent CC, great range, and a very small prep time(get in, cast, gtfo). Now whilst while our current Sarin cam possibly out damage her predecessor, this is significantly harder to do. The prep time has been drastically increased (Lash, Spore, get in, Molt,Mele hit, Miasma, gtfo). The range has been drastically reduced since u need to have both debufs to do the full damage. And the cost is now insane 25+50+50+100=225.
2)To other frames: Now here's the sad part. All the recent reworks(Excalibur, Frost, Valkyr, Mensa, Nyx, Ember) have turned the respective frames into endgame monsters capable of easily dispatching lvl 70+ Orokin enemies with ease while hardly getting damaged (if played well). The new frames (Atlas, Equinox, Chroma) Are also amazingly devastating in new and interesting ways, they make extended duration runs both easy and a lot of fun. Sad thing is even Mag and Volt are currently better than Sarin.
B)Abilities:
1)Spores: Currently this is the only ability that is on par with the rest of the frames, as it's basically Equinox's Rage with a different drawback.
2)Molt: Sadly this ability in currently almost useless versus end game mobs, it dies in app 5s. A simple fix would be to give it the same scaling as Alas's Tectonics, and making Regenerative Molt a default part of this ability (The augment can be made to increase the healing amount or to also regenerate energy). Also if default regeneration seams to OP we could base the explosion damage on the new health of the molt.
3)Toxic Lash :As of now this ability is a pain it needs to be made toggleble. Sadly even after it's made toggleble this ability is still lack luster as hell. Even with the block damage mitigation increase you can still be knock down, staggered and pulled. Now I see two ways of fixing this. First we could hive her cc immunity while the buff is active (just like Atlas's passive). Secondly we could simply allow the buff to affect ranged weapons
4)Miasma: Wat can I say.... this ability is garbage now, but how do we fix it? I see two possibilities. First we could simply bring back the low duration build. While this would be a simple change, sadly negate the revamp completely since the other abilities become almost useless. I really hope this dose not happen. Secondly we could make Miasma's damage be finisher damage just like Ash's Blade Storm only with a corrosive prock in stead of slash.
Well my dear teno these are my suggestions. If you have any other ideas please post them.
Update:
After sleeping on this problem I managed to realize something. People really love low duration Sarin and it's not our place to deny them that love (if you don't like press 4 to win then do not play press 4 to win) but other people want a more complex and interesting way to play her. So let's compromise, bring back low duration Sarin in all her previous glory but make the high duration one worth buy making her Miasma do finisher damage only if the target has both debuffs on.
I think that will do it. What's your opinion?
I'd like this, actually.
Though it still doesn't address my eHP woes. >.<
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In regards to saryn's rework. It feels like the core identity of the frame was altered unfairly, she used to be a nuking mage class, and is now a dot melee class. The idea itself is more fluid and synergistic, but the old way of playing saryn is no longer valid. Its depressing to lose a style of play you used to enjoy playing. Like the old warframe you used to enjoy playing was deleted and replaced. I think the rework would be better if instead of making her a melee caster, they just scrapped her 3 and embraced her old mage persona.
The irony is, they made her even weaker in melee range due to the eHP nerf. It's like they don't know which way to take her.
[Spoiler] Questions Regarding Multiple Focus (Foci?)
in Players helping Players
Posted · Edited by Exodess
Hi folks,
By chance that anyone has gotten far enough with the Focus system to answer these questions, can you provide some clarification on the following?
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1. Can you equip passive abilities from multiple Foci at the same time, or are you restricted to the abilities linked in one active Focus tree?
2. After you have unlocked multiple trees/Foci, how do you switch your number 5 attack?
3. Can you pre-configure each Warframe to use a different active #5 Focus ability, or do you have to manually go from your Arsenal menu over to your Operator/Focus menu?
4. Are passives always active on your Warframe or do you have to trigger your #5 Focus ability first?
5. Are all Focus passives permanent for the mission or are some of them only briefly available after using your ability? (I believe we can all agree the interface is very unclear about how these operate, since they don't even give us the numeric value of the boosts themselves.)
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I know it's really early in progression to be discussing this, but I would greatly appreciate some clarification if it just happens to be available. :)