[Become a hacking God in Spy missions.]

On 2020-06-06 at 12:37 AM, Slayer-. said:

Corpus vaults, Round the outside round the outside then sometimes the middle might need a spin. I thought everyone did it this way, makes sense.

"Around the outside, around the outside... around the outside..." ~Chef John

[Defection is really hard now...]

There was a time when I was able to keep squads of defectors alive just fine by myself... but that time seems to have passed. They get absolutely murdered now, and I don't know if it's their bad pathfinding (one of them deciding to turn around and run AWAY from the escape ship is very common), the buffs they gave the infested, or both.

Either way, I think this mostly forgotten game mode should be revisited, especially if it's to remain the only way to acquire Harrow. There's a reason nobody really plays it.

You know what I think would be cool? Treating it sort of like a tower defense game mode. Power cells are currently used for recharging the life preservers, but what if you you had other options for using power cells? What if placing them in certain machines would enable ship defenses for a period of time? Things like suppression fields that slow down the infested. turrets, stimulant injectors that speed up survivors, etc.

[Should We Gender-Bend?]

Nah. There's nothing wrong with gendered characters.

[Please Remove the Stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind]

23 hours ago, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

But it's clear that you're misunderstanding my point entirely, seemingly because you don't want to put up with what is essentially only a punishment for mashing (which you don't put up with in the first place, because you apparently play around it). So if you're mad about the stagger animation, but you can play around it, then you're mad about having to play around it because you want to mash.

I want to see Cleaving Whirlwind made consistent with every other stance in the game, which allow you to spam their moves with impunity. If no other stance needs such a restriction, then neither does CW. It's a nuisance... a minor one, but a nuisance nonetheless.
 

23 hours ago, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

and if this one animation is something that you really, seriously hate, then just don't use Cleaving Whirlwind.

If CW would be too "braindead" and "boring" without the stagger, what's stopping you from just not using it?

23 hours ago, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

If this is something you don't get, then you just don't get it, and I apparently can't change that.

I absolutely understand what you're saying. I'm telling you it's wrong. The head-smashing feeling is mutual.
 

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

If you have to ask this question, you clearly haven't played end-game level with people who like efficiency.

I do try to stay away from the most toxic members of the community, yes.
 

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

And yet, similar to the all-encompassing stagger, control of movement is taken away from you in the same way.

It's not, because I'm still attacking, not stumbling around doing nothing.

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

I have done so exactly once during this argument

Just... blatantly false. First, you claimed you've played for 7 years, then you claimed more people in this thread agree with you than me, and then you claimed you ran it by your clan. That's 3 times.

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

You have always been able to stop mid-combo and reset it. Never in the entire game have you been animation-locked into doing all 7, now 5, spins.

You were locked if you had already pressed the key for the next attack while the previous was completing, and couldn't cancel the animations. They fixed this with melee 3.0, and you know it. Don't be obtuse.

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

New players are learning this new melee system and having much more fun with it than ever before, thanks to these punishing endings.

lolwut

Please.. show me whatever evidence you've pulled out of your butt to suggest that new players are enjoying melee more because of a stagger at the end of one stance's combo...
 

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

I'm finishing this on my side. If I've learned anything from debate it's that you can't argue with someone who doesn't want to listen, which you've proven for yourself.

It's funny how whenever people like you try to exit an argument in this fashion, the onus is always on the other person listening. God forbid you do a bit of listening yourself...

[Please Remove the Stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind]

26 minutes ago, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

Your argument is that it's an unnecessary hindrance forced upon the player, but it's apparently not hard to work around either. So which is it?

These things are not mutually exclusive. they are both true. As I've said numerous times in this thread, it takes control away from the player, which is unique to this particular stance mod, and it should be removed to make the stance consistent with every other stance in the game. The ability to easily avoid it isn't relevant. You could easily avoid the Profit-Taker's knockdown attack as well, yet DE saw fit to increase the cooldown because it was an annoyance for players. I'm making the exact same argument for the removal of stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind.

If you agree on everything except that it should be removed, then why are you even here arguing? Your point is that it's not worth removing because it's an unnecessary and easily avoidable hindrance?

I'm not the one with conflicting views here, my dude...

[Please Remove the Stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind]

8 hours ago, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

If what we're talking about is getting to the best attacks in a combo the fastest

We're not. We're talking about an unnecessary hindrance placed upon the player for no actual reason. The animation itself is a holdover from pre-melee 3.0, when you were locked into completing combos, couldn't interrupt and then resume animations, and had less control over them. They've changed all of this while reworking melee, but kept the useless stagger that both of the people arguing against this agree is easily circumvented anyway.

I've yet to see an actual valid reason that suggests this stagger animation is necessary or even relevant. You claim it's a requirement for balance, yet admit that all you have to do is throw in slide attack, which is also a 360 degree attack that is just as powerful, and you can avoid it entirely.

It's not difficult. It's not necessary, and no other combo in the game has this imposed restriction... so DE should correct that inconsistent behavior.

[Please Remove the Stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind]

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

What I said is that it would make it boring and mundane, just spamming one attack over the rest and not fully utilizing the fun, dynamic stance that it is

You can already do this. Removing the stagger changes nothing other than removing the control that gets periodically taken from the player.
 

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

DE is trying to make the game more interesting and dynamic. Removing this stagger would do the opposite.

Having a stagger at the end of a combo does nothing to make it more interesting or dynamic.
 

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

There is a very easy and trivial way to get around the stagger.

Which renders it unnecessary and irrelevant beyond the annoyance it demonstrates for the player.
 

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

Removal of the stagger would cause Tempo Royale to become irrelevant for heavy-blades in the eyes of "meta slaves"

Who are these meta slaves and where have they said they would use CW over TR if not for that blasted stagger? Literally where are they?

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

And having combos that launch you forward for an entire second and with more endlag than the stagger animation isn't?

No, because it's part of the increased mobility aspect of the block-combos.
 

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

Once again, just because CW's is more obvious doesn't mean it doesn't happen in other stances.

Name one other stance that staggers you for using it.
 

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

This is called the Bandwagon fallacy, yet there aren't any opinions here to bandwagon with. As stated above, nobody really cares about this. Please read up on fallacies before you attempt to call someone out on them.

It's also referred to as an argumentum ad populum, but the term used to point it out isn't relevant and doesn't make you appear smarter. You can claim whatever you want about your "500 member clan" saying this or that. I could claim my 1000 member clan all said they want it removed. It's an inherently fallacious argument, and is easily ignored. You keep trying to use how long you've played or how many people you think agree with you to prove your case. I'll absolutely point out such blatantly fallacious argumentation.

[Please Remove the Stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind]

59 minutes ago, Skyward_Knight said:

My point with that statement was that it had nothing to do with the stagger. Bringing up a gun when we're talking about a sword doesn't help your point. In fact, that's called a logical fallacy, and makes your argument look worse.

No it doesn't. You're trying to invalidate the fact that there are hundreds of more effective ways to kill things than using a specific melee weapon stance, which is the point of the comparison. You opened the door for this when you brought up balance and tried to suggest that removing a stagger animation was going to make something OP.

1 hour ago, Skyward_Knight said:

Removing it wouldn't get rid of player choice, but it would go against what DE is working for.

The same DE that removed self-damage, right? They've repeatedly said that they're trying to make things consistent. CW is inconsistent with the rest of the roster of stance mods.

1 hour ago, Skyward_Knight said:

The end-result they were going for with Melee 3.0 was to make every melee fun.

Which they've mostly done. Now they could finish the job by removing the thing that makes CW less fun, hindering player movement for no reason.

1 hour ago, Skyward_Knight said:

It was overused and almost mandatory

It was nowhere near mandatory, same as Catchmoon. Meta =/= necessary. I've yet to even build a Catchmoon. I didn't get a maiming strike until after the nerf (because that's when they finally brought back Acolytes).
 

1 hour ago, Skyward_Knight said:

Contrarian: Someone who opposes or rejects a popular opinion. This is hardly a popular opinion. So far you and the one other guy who argued with me on this are the only two people I've seen that can't deal with this one tiny detail.

You know what it means in that context. Argumentative then, if a different word pleases you. You want to talk about logical fallacies, yet appeal to popularity? Beyond that, I'd bet if you could poll every Warframe player, you'd find this to be a popular opinion. The fact that there aren't many people in this one thread who have decided to post in agreement isn't really relevant. The point was that you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. I've yet to see an actual reason for why the stagger shouldn't be removed. You claim it's because it would make the stance too powerful, but there are very simple ways to circumvent that anyway. You don't care about that though... you just want to argue.

1 hour ago, Skyward_Knight said:

I've been playing this game for 7 years.

Who cares?
 

1 hour ago, Skyward_Knight said:

People stop playing, the game gets boring, and you start to get people who exclude players that don't have the specific mod/weapon that fits the meta at the time.

No one is going to stop playing Warframe if Cleaving Whirlwind's stagger gets removed. Absolutely no one.
 

1 hour ago, Skyward_Knight said:

I want to hear your reasons for why it should be removed.

I've already explained it multiple times. Again, ignoring that is just proof that you want to argue and disagree for the sake of it. But I'll play along once...

•  Having a stagger for using a combo too often is annoying because it temporarily removes control from the player. .
•  It's inconsistent with the rest of the stance mods in the game which have no such mechanic.
•  It's not necessary because the stagger isn't relevant, all it does is hinder the player's movement for a couple seconds, doesn't prevent spamming the ability in any relevant way, and can easily be circumvented by throwing in one separate move.
•  Taking control away from the player is the opposite of what DE has claimed they want for melee 3.0.
•  If balance were an actual issue (which I don't think it is), there are other ways to balance the stance that don't involve taking control away from the player.

[Ivara Prime wedding dress toggle off option]

 

[Please Remove the Stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

Just wanted to add as well that the examples in that video are really bad examples for your point. By using the same strategy to avoid the stagger in Broken Bull, you can use the 360 hits of those combos exclusively in the same way, and it would actually be harder to do because you would have to stop consistently. Comparative to Broken Bull, which only has to stop every 5 hits and has slowly growing damage for each input within it's combo, those are really bad combos for 360 coverage. Yes, the "breaks" in 360 damage for those other combos are in fact still attacks, but those attack animations are genuinely longer than the time it takes to stop after every 5th Broken Bull input to avoid the stagger.

You're ignoring the fact that every two spins for CW has a buildup that isn't significantly shorter than the attack or two between the 360 degree coverage of the other two stances/weapons I showed in the video.

The fact that ALL of CW's attacks are spins and only every other attack of the other two are spins... isn't relevant.
 

1 hour ago, Skyward_Knight said:

Maiming Strike allowed for no such thing. That was simply map walls being weird.

It was still a nerf to maiming strike, and got people to stop using it.

1 hour ago, Skyward_Knight said:

Exactly my point. They kept the stagger so it's more balanced and people use different weapons based off what they want. The entire point of Melee 3.0 was to diversify the playing field of melee weapons.

The entire point of melee 3.0 was to make weapons feel more responsive and give more control to players. That's why they simplified the combos in the first place, and implemented things like instant-melee switching, the ability to interrupt combos, and implemented more intuitive controls that allow you to specify whice attacks you want to use based on which buttons you use, as opposed to trying to memorize different combinations of mashing E.

These are words and phrase used by DE in dev streams... and interrupting the player's input by keeping the stagger in CW does the exact opposite of achieving those goals.
 

1 hour ago, Skyward_Knight said:

Comparing a melee weapon to a kitgun isn't a valid argument. They do entirely separate things, and are used in completely different situations. They're completely unrelated and cannot be logically compared. That would be like comparing a refrigerator to a car.

No they're not. They're both used in missions to kill enemies to varying degrees of efficacy. Same as Warframe abilities. Same as pretty much everything else in this game. The point is that there are a broad range of weapons in every category that perform entirely differently. Some are good. Some are bad. Some are in-between. The idea that CW would be so OP as to invalidate all other stances and remove player choice if they just removed a two-second stagger... is asinine.

If you're really that worried about balance, you could always argue to also slightly decrease the base attack speed of CW to balance it out. I don't get the stagger, and you don't get to act as though the difference is actually relevant. Everyone's happy.

But I have a feeling you're only arguing against this to be contrarian, not because you actually care about balance.

[Please Remove the Stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind]

2 minutes ago, Skyward_Knight said:

I don't think you can say that DE wanting to tone down brain-dead combos is unjustified reason. Look at what they did to Ember and Banshee, for instance.

I can absolutely say that because they haven't bothered to do it with literally anything but CW and the nerf to maiming strike, which was only really broken because it allowed you to hit through walls, which justified the change. Every other stance is just as "braindead".

 

4 minutes ago, Skyward_Knight said:

As a whole, heavy blades using Cleaving Whirlwind's forward combo will kill faster and more effectively than claws with Vermilion Storm and glaives with Gleaming Talon. Using the spin-to-win attacks has always been something DE wanted to keep under control. They simply don't have a reason to give those two combo's a drawback because they just can't match the damage output of Cleaving Whirlwind. Yes, Garuda's Talons can rip through crowds at breakneck speeds, but with a Gram Prime you could to the same in about half the time, and that's without a riven.

And? One weapon does more damage than another weapon. Welcome to Warframe.

This doesn't justify imposing a movement penalty upon the player for using a certain move too often. I can wipe an entire map of enemies with Saryn faster than any stance on any melee mod. Why isn't there a penalty there?

The entire argument that it would be too OP if they removed the stagger falls completely on its face when you realize that pretty much everything in the game is extremely overpowered, and most methods of killing things are still going to be preferred over a certain weapon with a certain stance.

Hell, up until recently, everyone was just using Catchmoon. It wasn't because Cleaving Whirlwind had a stagger, it was because Catchmoon was OP as hell.

I hold, there is no reason for there to be a combo that causes you to be staggered when using it, which only exists on one stance in the entire game.

 

9 minutes ago, Skyward_Knight said:

Tempo Royale DOES have drawbacks. If you don't kill enemies with your first combo, they will be suspended mid-air and most likely fly away because of the physics of heavy blades and the fact that almost every Tempo Royale combo has a hit that suspends enemies. Just because Cleaving Whirlwind is the only one with a stagger doesn't mean there aren't drawbacks to other stances.

I didn't say it was the only stance with drawbacks, I said it's the only stance that interrupts your combo for using it. That has nothing to do with any other stances beyond the fact that none of them interrupt your combo for using their combo.

[Please Remove the Stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind]

2 minutes ago, Genitive said:

It isn't, but at this point it is better to switch to Tempo Rolale that has no nonsense interrupts and go on with your day.

I don't like Temp Royale's combos, which is why I use Cleaving Whirlwind. This stagger effect isn't enough to make me not use it. It just makes absolutely no sense that it's literally the only stance in the game that interrupts your combo for using it too often. There's no other stance that does that, and you can spam all of the others with impunity.

#FixCleavingWhirlwind

[Please Remove the Stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind]

55 minutes ago, Skyward_Knight said:

The entire reason they have that stagger is so people can't just slap melee attack on a macro with a heavy blade and AFK. The entire point of it is to force players to be engaged, and as a balance point for Cleaving Whirlwind itself. Taking that away would not only allow people to just be braindead (something DE has been trying to avoid/fix for years) but would also entirely invalidate Tempo Royale as a stance because of the huge DPS disparity it would create.

When you talk about removing a hindrance on a stance, you have to look at the big picture, not just something you get mildly annoyed at because you can't AFK with it.

As for your "proof" of other stances, neither Gleaming Talon nor Vermilion Storm have non-stop spins like Cleaving Whirlwind. The damage output of those two "spins" are very limited because they don't go on forever like your dream version of Cleaving Whirlwind would.

The stagger doesn't stop you from using a macro anyway. It's a speedbump. You can continue spamming the attack as soon as the stagger animation is finished. Nothing is stopping you from doing that, least of all a brief stagger animation.

And it really doesn't matter what the animations are. Gleaming Talon and Vermillion Storm can both output massive damage. I actually noticed this while spinning to win with Vermillion on Garuda's Talons. Spinning like crazy and slicing everything to bits with absolutely nothing hindering my movement.

One of the points of melee 2.0 was to give more control over your combos and movement to the player. I can move and spam attack with literally every single stance in the game... EXCEPT for Cleaving Whirlwind... for no reason at all. None of what you said justifies it. It's a nuisance imposed upon the player, and it's exclusive to CW for no reason.

[Hema Research Cost Refund]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Pummelegance said:

The problem is also the extremely low drop rate of mutagen samples.

Even with both resource boosters it has an astoundingly low drop rate compared to the number required for the Hema.

There's no actual argument for it to be this bad, it's worse than the grind in many predatory mobile games.

Honestly, this.

Of the three "sample" resources, mutagen samples are the hardest ones to come by... for no real reason.

The only truly viable way of farming them is to do Derelict defense or survival missions with a full group running every loot-frame and companion in existence. Even then, it's a boring, soul-crushing grind for basically a token that says little more than "hey look everyone, I had nothing better to do with my time!"

It's the reason my friend and I (the only active members of my clan) haven't bothered farming it out. We've researched pretty much everything else... but the Hema has no incentive to actually do it. I think we have a combined playtime of well over 2000 hours (not a lot compared to some, I know, but that's not really the point), and we've only dumped maybe 500 total samples into the thing... just when we've felt like tossing them in the toilet, basically.

OP is asking for the wrong thing. I know they want a refund for whatever they've already spent... but they really just need to increase the drop rate of mutagen samples. There's no reason for me to have tens of thousands of fieldron samples and detonite ampules, but barely a couple dozen mutagen samples.

[Please Remove the Stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind]

As the title says, I'd like to see the pointless stagger effect when spamming Cleaving Whirlwind's spin attack removed. It's mildly amusing that your frame apparently gets "dizzy" and stumbles around for a second when you spin too much, but the fact that none of the other weapon stances seem to have this issue makes Cleaving Whirlwind mildly annoying to play.

Here's a short video showing the stagger effect of Cleaving Whirlwind, as well as a couple of similar stances for different weapon types, which you're free to spam all day long without any consequence whatsoever.
 

This most recent update was all about introducing some consistency across Warframe's various systems... please add a little consistency here. Remove the stagger animation from Cleaving Whirlwind.

[Where is 2020's First Mainline? Coming March 5th to PC!]

2 hours ago, Am0r.UA said:

Will it be possible to merge two lvl 3 arcanes? Or to split one into pices?

Cos many players have ranked dublicate of each arcane.

Or we all need to sell ranked dublicates on warframe market?

You can do both of those things.

[2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.]

9 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

You're arguing that Warframe is being beaten by PvP games.  They're either PvP or e-sports, because between both of those qualifiers virtually every game put out since 2005 could be considered that.  Warframe is, by definition, a game with PvP.  You then redefine and change the definition to PvP focused, as exemplified by arbitrary qualifiers which are not explained.  You then explain that streaming is your qualifier.  You then arbitrarily assign values to the top 15 games, based off of your own qualifications and what you think people watch things for on streaming.

I did literally none of those things. I always said that the top played games on Steam have a predominantly pvp/esports focus.

So now you're just a blatant liar.

[2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.]

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let's rush this one, because you seem to be missing the point.

 

You're arguing that 100% bug free is not possible.  Agreed.  I'm arguing that a lot of these bugs are something immediate and transparent to a significant enough chunk of the community, and literal hours after the content is pushed.  That's pretty difficult to swallow, because development isn't magically finding a line of code with commentary that says "this line will cause a failure if the variable is set to 0" and finding a state equation which can become zero in fringe cases.  This is why I hated coding, because the error outputs for something this complex simply to compile (let alone run) would make me hate life.

 

You stated that PvE games are going to be out of the top 10 99.9% of the time.  They don't draw a crowd.  That's pretty stupid, because PvP or e-sports is functionally every game ever.  I could create an e-sports league speed running anything.  Bomberman on the consoles is PvE and PvP, and I can't differentiate the two.  Ark isn't a PvP game in my world, it's a survival with some player interactions.  By your definition Fallout 76 is a PvP game, despite the recent comments by Bethesda that they are surprised people aren't going PvP murderous.  An elastic word defined poorly is not useful to justify games.  It's like how everything was action/adventure, and this described everything from Dark Souls to Mario.  

 

Nightwave being objectively better was your choice of words.  You've defaulted to subjective feels.  No.  I objectively tell you that you have to complete tasks, get pseudo affinity, collect it, and then decide whether you buy an item.  For new players this sucks, because you can't get a dozen auras in a week.  For old players, the issue is that the grind to earn things you already have enough of is not fun.  The system is objectively better for those players in the middle ,because they have some of the things but can choose to get what they need the most.  This is choice replacing the alert system, but coming at the price of less rewards.  The old system was log in, do mission, get reward.  The new system is half a dozen more steps, and it isn't great for new players or veterans.

You argue it feels better to choose.  I argue choice cutting out possibility is not choice.  To not see this is baffling, because it means you can't put yourself in anybody's shoes.  If you disagree start a new account.  Tell me how much more painful the grind is without catalysts or reactors, with the ability to earn maybe a couple of auras which only change weekly, and then tell me how somebody without a reactor could do an eidolon hunt or 30 minute kuva survival without being carried.

 

 

Regarding platinum.  Fine.  If you can't get past an RNG drop of an RNG discount then live with it.  That's a personal choice, and you seem not to understand why I'd want to spend the platinum I already paid for in the game.  It's baffling, but I do have some gift cards to sell you.  I'll give you a 10% discount.

 

Regarding Starcraft...do you not get it?  The argument was patently foolish to show you that your definition was poor.  By applying it within the boundaries you defined I showed something easily possible, and you agreed it was stupid.  What do you not get, when your argument is applied using your rules, but the outcome is insane.  When people do this to me I pause, determine what rule broke, and then go back.  The logic of "the top games are PvP or e-sports" is flawed because literally every game can fall under that.  Ark is a survival game in my hands, but you want to go murder people and steal their stuff.  Isn't it silly to define things so broadly, and come up with conclusions which follow your rules but are laughable?  Do you get it?  I'm suggesting to evaluate your assumptions.  

Alternatively, keep stating things as 99.9% true.  At least 4 of those games above can be entirely played solo, so 4/15 =0.1%  Streaming games doesn't define how they can be played, as I can stream Fallout 4 and turn it into a base builder despite it commonly being listed as an RPG.

You're probably the must stubbornly ignorant person I've seen complaining on here. You don't want to listen to anything. You think DE needs to listen to you because you know how everything works, while clearly demonstrating you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

You know damn well nobody is playing any of those top player count games for anything but the pvp. You know this. You have to. I refuse to believe you're so obtuse as to genuinely make an argument that just because something has a pve element, then it's popular because of it. It would be as absolutely stupid as claiming people play Warframe for the crucible... would you argue that?

I doubt you would.

So stop acting like you don't know that pvp is the primary way that most games retain players. You not only make an ass of yourself, but you insult the intelligence of anyone you're arguing with.

Beyond that, I'm tired of arguing around in circles with you. I've explained this stuff over and over, and you refuse to listen to any of it because you just want to whine and complain like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum because mom isn't giving him that extra cookie. I'm tired of arguing with a child.

[2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.]

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

You have no idea what I'm saying.  I'm not talking a completely bug free release, that's what you've decided that I mean.  I'm talking the kind of bugs that show up within minutes.  If you'd like to highlight specific examples, let's check out the 27.0.2 release, the second after 27.0.  December 13th, and the list of critical fixes causing crashes is huge.

Not everyone experiences those. It's a minority of players. Which is part of what makes stuff like that so difficult to test.

You're right, I'm leaning heavily on my experiences as a tester. I know that no matter how many hours you put in, stuff is always going to slip through the cracks, and then people like yourself are going to whine about it and act like you didn't do your job. And the developers are going to have to patch all the crap you couldn't find later anyway. What you want is simply not feasible. You claim you're not arguing for a 100% bug-free release, yet you ignore the fact that bugs are squished before launch of all of these updates anyway. You ignore the fact that to find everything with a limited number of people would take months. You ignore the fact that tens of thousands of people playing a game for a day are going to find more bugs than any number of testers you could hire.

 

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

No, you can ignore that one.  It's not changing the goalposts to suggest Warframe is devoid of PvP, and making up the numbers (99.9% of single player games not in the top 10 is as accurate as 99.9% of PvP not there either).  I implore you, justify that statement. 

I can't justify something that is complete nonsense... which is exactly what it is with the way you stated it. I have no idea what garbage you're trying to put in my mouth here, but let's break it down into some really simple terms...

The top fifteen games on Steam currently are as follows...

CSGO: PvP/esports
DOTA2: PvP/esports
PUBG: PvP/esports
Siege: PvP/esports
Ark: Survival/PvP
GTA5: Sandbox/PvP (there's a reason Rockstar only makes multiplayer DLC now, you know)
Football Manager: multiplayer fantasy football game
Rocket League: PvP/esports
TF2: PvP
Destiny 2: Shooter looter with a heavy PvP angle
Monster Hunter World: RGP
Rust: Survival/PvP
Warframe: PvE shooter looter
BDO: MMO
MCC: PvP

Are you capable of noticing the pattern here? Why is it so difficult to understand that games that aren't focused on PvP are rarely left with numbers as high as those Warframe is maintaining? PvP games always have more regular players than PvE games... and yet Warframe is still up there in popularity. The fact that players have dropped since the hype of Fortuna's release isn't relevant. And no matter how many times you want to act like The Old Blood and Railjack are as big as Fortuna was... they're not. They were never going to be. There is no anomaly here. Warframe is doing very well despite being almost exclusively PvE, and not having a major content release like the Plains and Fortuna in over a year and a half.
 

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Calling me wise is interesting.  You finally showed me what your objective standards are, and it's nothing.  "I can choose not to participate" is not a reward.  Your argument is the same as alerts.

No, you're not forced to do any of those specific things. You can do them if you wish and end up with plenty of creds to buy whatever bits and pieces you need, and if you do just want creds, they've even weighted them to the front of the drop list, and you get nothing BUT creds after you hit 30. None of the objectives in Nightwave are difficult to do. The few that are geared more toward veteran players can easily be skipped. New players aren't even relevant when comparing to alerts because you needed to have the nodes the alerts were on unlocked before you could play them anyway, which locked many new players out unless they got sherpa'd to them, and if they could get sherpa'd to alerts, they can get sherpa'd through Nightwave objectives.

None of what you said refutes anything I said about Nightwave. Explain how it's not a player choice when you're given a currency that you can spend on whatever you need? Explain how it's not a player choice to give you a series of objectives you don't need to complete in order to get what you want. Explain how it's not a player choice to give you an entire week to complete the objectives instead of restricting you to a couple of hours. Explain how nightwave having lore, enemies, and mechanics that aren't seen in the normal game is not superior to alerts which were just normal missions and had none of that.

You say my examples of objectivity are nothing, yet you don't have a SINGLE ONE to prove that alerts are somehow better. Not a single one. You claim Nightwave is hiding points behind things players wouldn't otherwise do... so were alerts. I certainly didn't want to play two waves of Interception of Pluto at midnight on a Tuesday just to get some Nitain.

Nightwave IS objectively superior... which is probably why you're basically the only person still whining about it. The only other people complaining are wondering where the next season is.
 

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

The removal of discounts isn't what I desire, it's the ability for platinum to be used to buy all goods.  If losing discounts is necessary for this, then I'm fine with that.

Well I'm not, and I'm quite certain a lot of other people aren't either. Paying a static price to buy something is such a non-issue, it's not even funny. You're literally just whining because you can't use some in-game currency to buy something you don't need. What's really amusing is the fact that just a few paragraphs before, you were whining about mismatched in-game nightwave currencies...

Make up your mind, dude.
 

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

That would be a valid point, but again this is patching critical issue within 24 hours of a release, which should have been delayed those 24 extra hours.

And you know that these vague and nebulous issues would have been discovered in a reasonable time period by however many testers DE employs? Compared to tens of thousands of players? All of them? Enough to satisfy whatever your own arbitrary definition of "not broken" is?

Go get a job testing software. Maybe then you won't be so ignorant about it.
 

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

It's really ironic when you consider that Starcraft 2 is still being played and it can be 100% PvE

Yeah, go look on twitch and tell me how many people are watching and playing Starcraft 2 for the PvE...

Man, what a dumb argument. SMH

[2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.]

33 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

DE sets release.  That means when they release something broken it's their choice to do so.  You somehow justify this as it being acceptable to do so, where my point is they could have not released, done the bug fixing, and when the thing came out it could be good.

Exactly which part of "it would takes LITERALLY MONTHS for them to properly test all this" are you not understanding? Again... your attitude here proves that you've never actually worked QA before. I have. They're pumping out content because if they took the months it would take them to pay a team to test everything (and it's still impossible to squish every bug before release anyway), you people would be crying about content droughts more than you already do. It's simply more efficient to release something when you think it's ready to go, then patch it after people find the random junk that would otherwise take, and I emphasize this again, MONTHS... to fix. And I don't mean an extra month. I mean, if they were still trying to test Railjack to your standards, it wouldn't be out. Liches likely wouldn't be out yet. Fortuna would have probably released last year instead of 2018.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about here. Period.
 

 

37 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Nightwave is objectively better than alerts?  What.  Define the objective standards.  From where I sit the goal here is to deliver more consistent rewards, with the consequences being that less rewards are on offer.  That's great for a veteran player, with dozens of each aura, nitain out the ears, and enough of the cosmetics that they never have to spend money.  If you're a new player it's placing necessary component behind a time gated wall.  Again, define your objective standards.

Nightwave allows players to perform the actions they want to perform, when they want to perform them, and establish their own goals and achievements. Alerts required you to monitor them regularly, or join a discord or something that would notify you of the items you wanted, and then you'd have to manage your time to be available during the time those alerts were available. Nightwave is an objectively better system because it gives the player more power over the objectives they complete, when they play, and what rewards they get. On top of that, it introduces new cosmetics, gives players a way to get otherwise paid items (like slots) for free, and even introduces some new enemies, mechanics, and bits of lore.

Now please, oh wise one... explain to me the objective ways in which you think Nightwave is somehow inferior to Alerts. And no, "they could have done it this other way that I think I'd like more" is not a valid argument or criticism.

 

41 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

It's interesting that PvP is what you got from this.  Interesting in that you started by citing e-sports and changed once I gave examples.  As an aside, if PvP is somehow what your qualifier is then Warframe is PvP for conclave, and multiplayer required for things like Railjack.  You can continue to move the goal here, but once you settle on one thing please let me know.  I'll gladly either agree or disagree, but without boundaries this discussion is useless.

If you go back and read my initial response to you, you'd see that I very clearly stated that most of the most-played games on Steam at any given moment have an esports angle or are otherwise PvP focused.

There is no shifting of goalposts. No one cares about the Conclave. No one watches Warframe on Twitch because of the Conclave. For all intents and purposes, Warframe is an exclusively PvE game, while all of the other popular games that maintain high numbers of players on any given day (with the exception of extremely new releases, for as long as those last) are heavily embedded within esports and PvP. People play Ark because it's an open-world multiplayer survival game with a heavy PvP slant. People play GTA5 because of GTAO, which is heavily focused on PvP. People play TF2 because of the PvP. Destiny 2 also has a very strong PvP component in the Crucible and Iron Banner.

Most games require a PvP element in order to maintain high player numbers over the course of years. Do you disagree with this statement? If not, why do you think it's somehow a mark against Warframe, a game that relies almost exclusively on PvE content, which has been around for over 6 years now, to only be in the bottom portion of the top most-played games on steam for any given day? 99.9% of PvE-focused games don't maintain numbers like that. Period.

 

47 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Platinum.  Sigh.  The two word answer here is "Market Discounts."  The larger answer is that DE can carve out the discounts from daily rewards, to harmonize the system.  They choose not to.  I would conjecture that the point here is that they generate sales with FOMO by having random platinum discounts.  What I'd also say is that I seem to get discounts far more often around holidays, though I don't have the math to demonstrate this is a thing.  Choosing not to harmonize is something on DE, not a limitation set about by some outside source.

Why should they remove Plat discounts from daily rewards? Just so that you stop complaining about not being able to buy Tennogen stuff for Plat? What is the actual argument for this other than "I want to be able to trade for these things instead of having to buy them"? You complain about DE wanting you to spend money on a game that you claim is "broken", yet you whine about not wanting to actually buy stuff.

[2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.]

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

Stopping for a moment here, if there were deadlines which DE didn't develop, I'd agree.  Content being promised by a certain date would necessitate that certain compromises were made, and thus the QA team missing bugs would be understandable.  The thing is, the only time they've given us dates is shortly before releases, and even then a lot of them come like our current windows of "Early March" and "April."  They release stuff to test on the PC so we can do basic bug fixing, and they can then go through the more rigorous QA checks for the consoles.  That's not an acceptable way to do QA, it's the minimum effort way.

It's perfectly acceptable for an indie developer making a f2p game to release content when they deem it finished and then patch it later. The game is huge. You really don't have an understanding of what it takes to test every aspect of a game like this, do you? If they had a full team of testers working 10 hour days on this content, it would take months of testing before any given update was "ready"... and there would STILL be bugs for you to whine about. Your expectations aren't even close to being realistic.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

DE can't produce content is a bad joke.  I used to say this, but DE themselves have cut this response off.  Why, Nightwave.  They decided to compete with Fortnite, and didn't make sure they had the resources.  Despite this being an inherently suicidal idea, we've now got an intermission that won't end and more intermissions than "seasons" of content.  Despite this, they're plowing on forward like everything is fine.  They decided to do this, because they decided the alert system should be thrown out rather than retooled.

Nightwave is objectively better than the old alert system, and it has nothing to do with Fortnite. It's a method of delivering existing content to players with more regularity, as well as providing some new lore stories and characters here and there. Also, we're on the second intermission, and have had two content nightwaves, so the statement about there being more intermissions than new lore editions is just blatantly untrue.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

I don't even know where to begin addressing your statements about player counts.  November 2018 was a peak due to the release of PoE and the media blitz.  Stopping one more time, the numbers we are experiencing now are pre-PoE levels, and that was not having any content for months in the lead-up to PoE.  Now we've got Railjack, Old Blood, and two events which are coming but still have such low numbers of players.  That's the flag here, huge content recently released and still not having people come back.  I don't care about e-sports, but the top 10 list from steam includes Ark, GTA 5, Monster Hunter World, Team Fortress 2, and Destiny 2.  Not many of those are e-sports, and Destiny 2 is something DE directly invites comparison against by virtue of their own marketing.

The only game in that list that doesn't have any focus on PvP is Monster Hunter World. All of the others either focus on PvP, or it's a huge aspect of their gameplay, and PvP is always going to be more popular than games with little to no focus on PvP, especially when the games without PvP have been around for 6 years. Nobody is playing or watching Warframe for the Conclave. The staying power of a game that is pretty much entirely PvE and has been around for the better part of a decade is impressive. Beyond that, acting like The Old Blood and Railjack are the same scope as something like PoE and Fortuna is just foolish. The Old Blood and Railjack are essentially unfinished parts of Fortuna. That's when they were revealed. Also, the Plains of Eidolon was released in 2017, not 2018. The peak numbers are from the launch of Fortuna, which promised to be PoE but bigger and better, and largely delivered on that promise. Once again, the release of a massive open world location with tons of new content being promoted by tons of youtubers and streamers is always going to be incredibly popular. I'm not sure why you think misrepresenting the size and scope of adding Liches to the game or even Railjack is helping you get your point across.

And yeah, let's compare Warframe to Destiny 2... which charges you for every major content release, charges you for loot boxes, charges you for cosmetics, and charges you for season passes... lol

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

The Tennogen connundrum is simple.  DE sets prices on goods through their virtual currency.  They discount it at their whim.  They already have platinum purchases of tennogen on consoles, so what's the problem with that on PC?  Well, that's because they'd have to balance out the market and create a direct platinum to dollars conversion.  It seems like they've got that on consoles, but not PC.  I won't conjecture as to why, but saying this is impossible is pretty foolish when 3/4 platforms already do.  What makes PC special?

Platinum works differently on consoles. They don't get Platinum at discounted prices. The price of Plat on consoles is static. What they get are discounts on individual purchases. That's a big difference, and it's probably one of the bigger issues facing the much-demanded cross-save implementation (along with the timing of updates in general). Because the price of Platinum of static, it's probably far easier to implement Tennogen items for Plat on consoles... just as easy as it is to implement static prices for Tennogen items on PC. This is a non-issue.

[2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.]

3 hours ago, DocLouis said:

Hello Games took a barebones pile of garbage and turned it into a fun, playable experience, in three years. Keep in mind you said yourself they are a small team.

DE, meanwhile, is a large studio that spent roughly 4 years "developing" railjack. What they shipped wasn't even barebones, it's hardly even a framework. We got a gamemode so broken it was actually unplayable, and remains largely broken months later, with no variety or real value. Begs the question, really; What were they doing for those four years? Because RJ looks like a hastily slapped together engine experiment rushed out as "content" to try and clot the bleeding player numbers. Also, NMS updates are entirely free, as well. That's not a point to be made.

PC players should not have to serve as free QA testers for a dev team that is in no shortage of money. This notion that F2P games magically sustain themselves is old and I can't believe people still use it to defend crappy company practices. A good majority of players have spent money on this game and continue to do so. But I guess nobody is allowed to criticize something as long as you technically don't have to invest a dime into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

DE did not spend 4 years making Railjack. Steve was conceptualizing it 4 years ago. Or do you think Fortuna just poofed out of the ether overnight?

The stuff about railjack being unplayable and remaining broken is your own hyperbolic opinion... disregarded.

"PC players should not have to serve as free QA testers for a dev team that is in no shortage of money. This notion that F2P games magically sustain themselves is old and I can't believe people still use it to defend crappy company practices. A good majority of players have spent money on this game and continue to do so. But I guess nobody is allowed to criticize something as long as you technically don't have to invest a dime into it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

^ this is probably the most ignorant series of sentences I've read in this thread.

First of all, you could never hire enough testers to do a job as effectively as an entire community of players. As someone who has done QA testing, that stuff takes time and effort and money that you clearly don't have a solid understanding of. Beyond that, I never said that you don't have a right to criticize something, and I certainly never said that free to play games "magically sustain themselves" (wtf is that even supposed to mean???). But just because you've bought a few skins doesn't mean you're entitled to having content pumped out that perfectly suits your tastes, and has been tested to be 100% bug free, AND at whatever asinine schedule you've pulled out of your rear and think DE is obligated to adhere to.

[Accidental Liches are a Problem]

They should just add the dialog that they use for deciding whether you want to kill or recruit a lich... to the larvaling kill. It could zoom to some cinematic angle, show you the weapon they'll have at the top of the screen, and give you a choice of whether you want to spawn lich or cancel.

Then people could stop complaining about their lack of self-control.

[name change cost?]

20 minutes ago, taiiat said:

because it's a form of monetization and it's probably also trying to discourage changing your Username constantly.

(even though it feels like Steam forgets Nicknames periodically so people i definitely set one for from time to time won't have one anymore and then 'who TF is this')

Never had that problem, but it does sound annoying.

[2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.]

7 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

DE has way more manpower, but cannot release something that doesn't need a half dozen hotfixes to be acceptable.

Dude, you've clearly never done software QA.

The game is in perpetual beta on PC for a reason. PC players are the guinea pigs that test content before it's released to other platforms, and are given that content early as a consolation prize. 

Deal with it.

The problem with so many people is that they want their content and they want it now, but they're unwilling to accept the consequences of that. If DE waited until now to release Railjack, people like yourself would claim they were breaking their promises there as well. "It was supposed to release last year!" People like yourself also like to complain about content droughts.

With the NMS comparison... it has taken that small team years just to deliver on the promises that were made before the original launch, AND they didn't bother telling most people that those things weren't in the game before they put it up for sale. I think that's far more egregious than DE taking longer than expected to churn out free content they mentioned months or even years ago but haven't been able to properly tune yet.

Some of y'all need to realize that nobody is forcing you to buy anything, and nobody is forcing you to bumrush every new content drop, only to turn around complaining about how DE isn't releasing stuff quickly enough, or how what they've released isn't working quite right for you. Go play something else, or go do something else in the game. It won't kill you to let them hammer it out. You're not paying for it anyway.

And before you try to argue that "go play something else isn't a valid argument because player numbers have dropped from peak blah blah blah"... player numbers peaked so high because DE was releasing "open" maps that looked great and got a lot of attention from streamers and youtubers. They're still trying to deliver on the promises they made at Tennocon 2018, and a lot of people are content to sit back and wait for it. There are thousands of games out there. If you think player counts won't spike again when DE releases their next huge thing, you're fooling yourself. 51k people playing is damn good. That's better than most other non-esport or otherwise PvP-focused titles out there.

Oh, and a little side note about platinum for Tennogen... I'm quite certain that the reason you can't use Plat to buy Tennogen stuff is because it would be a pain to convert plat that was traded or sold at a discount into money that could be distributed to creators. Just saying.