Dojutrek
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Posts posted by Dojutrek
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11 minutes ago, 000l000 said:
5 energy per sec is all but overpowered or gamebreaking. Arcane energize is way more powerful though.
Arcane Energize isn't readily available since it's behind the Hydrolyst and subject to RNG. It also has a huge cost to obtain before that.
Zenurik and all focus schools for that matter are a choice made in the War Within that become intrinsically tied to your operator. Also, it's not just 5 Energy a Second, you have to note that the Bubble in Question sticks around for a while. So while within the bubble the timer doesn't start (8 seconds for the bubble, 30 for the buff for a total of 190 Energy). Arcane Energize by comparison has a 40% chance to activate on Orb Pickup and has a 100 Flat gain to everyone in the 10 meter radius, unless you stack them Energizing Dash is ultimately better. So the up time for an Energizing Dash is much higher and more consistent than Arcane Energize in the long run.
Maybe we could bring Energizing Dash in line with A. Energize? Just a thought.
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5 hours ago, HEA-Devazone said:
there is no reason to choose unairu/naramon over zenurik because of the energy regen from energizing dash
how about,
all focus school get abilities to restore warframe energy but in different supportive way
while zenurik remain as the most efficient way to regen energy to self and allies.
I think that's a good idea, but that would be compounding the issue quite a bit.
5 hours ago, (PS4)KevlarZero said:How about leave it the way it is but give a much harsher penalty to operator death (i.e. duration/range/effectiveness cut by 30%, recoil/reload time on all weapons increase by 15%, no bullet dashing or air aiming for 30 seconds, gradually improving over that time). And on signature operator moves like energizing dash, prevent returning to Warframes for 6/5/4/3 seconds depending on rank.
Good suggestions. 👏
2 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:Is that a real truth or just an assumed hope though? Experience tells me that the less gifted players might see it that way however the higher tier ones just switch tools. Essentially what the end result of such a change (making energy economy less lucrative) would be that you just narrow the acceptable tool sets but that is what the "META" does already. For all the groaning at Eidolons and Limbo's functionality (even Trials/Raids before that) I can tell you that the player base at large isn't looking for more restrictive 'teamwork'. It just fosters the environment where a handful of frames get accepted for certain tasks and everything else takes pleading to be granted a chance or a more proactive choice that generally takes longer to start or accomplish anything (you can just use a meta frame and play now or play whatever you want and have to wait 30min or so). Basically forcing people to play frames they may not like or own just to play the game.
Switching over to the other half of this topic of redefining the team aspects (by hinging DPS frames down to increase the perception of CC) I don't entirely agree with that sentiment. I can agree that DPS towers over CC (in most game modes) because dead is better than temporary disabled/hobbled and there aren't a lot of deterrents to just killing things however that doesn't particularly devalue CC. The larger problem is probably the effective range of AoE bursts (which doesn't only include powers). Ideally in most games CC is a means to buy you time to kill your targets efficiently. For example, Mesa and a CC frame can work well together. Even while Mesa can be very quick to dispatch targets, a CC frame can give time to Mesa by protecting her from the non-immediate threats until she can get to them. Perhaps there is a situation where Mesa gets overwhelmed and would die without that CC that is what the point of CC is in the first place. But that ultimately lends to the switch from DPS to CC viability as scaling gets higher because at some point DPS need more time. From there players are allowed to tackle situations however they like and stacking more DPS is a choice in bids to offset/delay that. CC has less relevance in the set node ranges not because of energy but because we scale far higher than enemies for all relevant content. It doesn't help that most the game is also mechanically simplistic and straightforward.
Everything here is speculation, we can't even test 90% of what's suggested on these forums in-game, but talk shouldn't end just because we can't.
First, higher level players always switch to the most commonly available option, been playing for Five years so I've seen it often. I remember the older days when Energy Orbs were the only way to get Energy or play Trinity, it was slow and disappointing to play so I fully agree with and I don't want that back. However, over the course of time Energy options have become more and more prevalent bringing the overall power up, but the bar for teamwork down since there's no need to interact with your team. Personally, Energy Pizza's were a bad decision back in the day, it was for convenience but it ultimately caused issues leading to this point. There was an over-reliance on the need to max out energy without any of the downside except "resource cost" which was mitigated greatly the further you got into the game. Syndicate weapons were a good step as they had a load-out choice, but even though Zenurik is a decent step the incentive to choose something else isn't there as it was with Syndicate Weapons.
Interesting that you bring up an interesting point about AoE bursting, I personally think it has gotten out of control now that I think about it. I think AoE should be a stop-gap to a more permanent solution, like what you said above so we're talking on the same page here. I would be open to talk about suggestions in this category, if you have the time.
Also, funny enough I've been through that example, did a 2 hour and 30 Minute run because my clan got called out. At Level 600+ the enemies need to be CC'd, with a Nekros and a Limbo it became manageable for our Mesa to kill effectively. Even so, we were running out of energy and it was an exciting time, prior to that it was easy up until 200+ Enemies because of the abundance of energy and AoE weaponry. CC should be a method to stem the tide of combat, to get a breather, however when everything dies in one or two hits it becomes less important.
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14 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:
That's one among many. Health is also defined by it's armor or the frames stats in generall, how well you can gain energy is defined by a frames Cc... there is but a hand full of frames who can actually implement it into theyr kit and even less among them who can actually use the energy for something.... i like the whole getting energy from damage, berserker kinda idea behind so i've tried it with most if not all of the frames i have and let me tell you, there's exactly one that really does it well and that's ember.
You can't compare those two...i mean you technicly can but it's pointless.
True, Armor does play a factor in Rage/Adrenaline. Even if you're gaining said energy, having a means to expend it is an issue. Ember does it well because of the Channeled ability she has, just like Mesa or Excalibur. I'd personally like it if more Frames could use Rage/Adrenaline as a mainstay as there's tangible benefits, rather than relying on Energy Plates and Zenurik. Also, Rage/Adrenaline work well with Quick Thinking which gives some sort of survival frames less armor inclined. Maybe more Energy Spender options might be in the cards?
9 minutes ago, EarthRed said:I think the main problem is that the other focus schools are extremely underpowered when compared to Zenurik or Madurai. In my honest opinion, spammability (to a certain degree) and options for heavy energy regeneration are healthy for the game, since they both open up new build types and let players that wish to do so engage enemies with their skills rather than just weapons for the most part. There should be, however, a strategic drawback, a cost of opportunity to choosing said builds, which is not true for the focus schools at the moment. Unairu buffs are non-existant, for example, so there really isn't a choice there.
Good points all around. Spamming and Energy Regeneration are tied together, but as I said above aren't inherently bad but instead problematic. My personal view is that Spam needs a drawback, like cool down timers or modified energy requirements and so on. So far, nobody has suggested another option to combat spam outside of those two.
Also you're quite right, I think Drawbacks need to be in the game in some fashion, especially with Focus Schools, to provide actual hard choices and opportunities to specialize.
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As a PC player, I have to agree with this. It's a cumbersome experience even on PC. With the release of the Tesla changes, the problem only becomes more apparent. Personally, I'd like a Tap to Charge and Tap Release, but that's just me.
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8 minutes ago, Reifnir said:
Wrong approach altogether. You're looking to make content that is trivial (with a given value of player power attained) more tedious, not more interesting. Remember when DE wanted to make Eximus units damage-resistant unless targeting specific weak points? Didn't go live, because it was a bad idea for the pace Warframe is played at.
We need more challenging content, yes, but that needs to come in a form of content that is challenging while keeping our current capabilities (sustainable energy included) not by crippling us to make previously trivial content somewhat less trivial and much, much more tedious.
I think you're arguing around the issue, How does changing the energy economy to have less consumable and easily accessible energy options make it more tedious? Is it because we lose self-reliance, to make way for potential supporting play?
Challenge comes in many forms, Enemies with Weak points are a Challenge. Enemies designed to be Crowd Controlled is another. Level 600+ enemies are a challenge as well (Don't do this, been there done that).
1 minute ago, Autongnosis said:To be honest every time i see one of these discussions i cringe a little bit.
Not because they don't have a point, but because imo they are beating a dead and rotting horse. Hell, they're probably beating powdered bones by now.
You don't solve spammability by attacking one energy generator at a time. In fact you either trounce ALL of them or none. But that needs an intent from DE, and from what I've seen through the years that's not the case.
On top of that, at least Zenurik has an opportunity cost. You could run Naramon for better melee play, Madurai to buff up your damage, Unairu for more defences and the handy armour strip+bullet attractor... Stuff like energy pizzas have no such cost.
You have a point as well and you're right about the opportunity cost (Finally somebody mentions it). The point of this discussion isn't to beat a dead horse, but to provide discussion about the whole of the energy economy. I targeted the singular thing to bring people into the thread, but as I can see it's causing more issues than it's worth since reading the entire thread isn't a requirement.
Either way, whether it be one year or many years down the road. It's never going to go away and discussion breeds creativity on a subject. New voices, new ideas brought to the table. (Also, somebody has to be the bad guy and bring it up.)
2 minutes ago, Soketsu said:Simple,
Ennemies/mission worth of having any form of teamwork.
When 1 or more tenno on the team is able handle alone horde of lvl 100+ foe even without using zenurik (or any operator buff), why should they bother using form of teamwork ?
A solution is to provide harder mission, forcing tenno to combine their power in order to prevail.
When most mission give tennos what they want with minimal efforts and then another mission demand teamwork but don't give them significantly better/different loot, what should they bother doing it ?
Reward them with twice or 4 time more ressources, give them arcranes or vaulted stuff for example in order to make them consider doing it.
After that, you may even had energy regen condition in order to divide per 3 or 4 energy gain and disable pizza and you may have some form of team work against hordes of foes.
The only issue created is that it will exclude newer / non-veteran tennos.
I don't know where you plan to move the game if you have the power to do so, but just doing this won't change anything, beside pissing of many people/slowing the game.
Okay, you just defeated yourself. By modifying the Energy Economy to be less lucrative, a singular Tenno would be pressed into teamwork for more challenging content. However, as I've brought up above there's other ways to provide challenge, there's also another thread which I'm apart of that is going into this subject as well. You might notice that I'm debating a similar point.
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50 minutes ago, Colyeses said:
Energy economy nerfs ARE nerfs to all casters.
Trivialises a ton of things, yes. Pushes out CC in favour of damage, no.
Think about it, how many warframe abilities are actually used for damage?
No one uses shock. Or freeze. Ice wave. Psychic bolts. Spectral scream. Tesla grenade. Shrapnel mine. Slash Dash. Sleight of hand. The entirety of Ember.
Warframe abilities in this game need to meet one of three conditions in order to be used: They need to have utility, OR they need to scale with weapon strength, OR they need to scale with the enemy.
Abilities and overabundance of energy are not the reason why CC isn't used anymore. Because warframe abilities, overwhelmingly, do not deal relevant damage. There's exceptions here and there, sure, but on the whole, the majority of damage output at high levels is going to be from weapons. The problem is that we have gear that can easily dispose of level 120 corrupted bombards while barely trying. Abilities don't do that.
If the power creep in the weapons category isn't dealt with, OR we get specific counter-content akin to nullifiers, CC is not going to come back. Nerfs to caster warframes/energy economy are just going to make the situation worse.
You have a point, since Energy Economy is dovetailed with Frames, but I'd argue that it is a potential problem waiting in the wings. The question is, how much is too much? and how much of that puts the rest of the content into Solo territory? How much will we push the Energy Economy to the point where all content, say for endless content, is solo-able?
Also you're quite right about abilities, but all of the abilities you've mentioned have a secondary use, which makes them economy options for those inclined. Shock for instance has CC, Freeze is a single-target CC, Psychic Bolts have a Rad proc (If I recall) and so on. They have Utility, but they're overshadowed by better, more costly options.
As for Damage on Abilities. For example, Me and a group of my friends did a 2 hour and 30 minute Survival run because somebody issued a challenge to us (600+ Enemies are no joke), by the end of it Mesa and Nekros were the top. At level 600+, our Mesa was dealing and killing the most out of our entire party with me being second with Nekros's Shield of Shadows. Nekros has a CC in Shield of Shadows, but at higher level content it becomes almost essential since it also does Damage and CC. I think more abilities should have damage scaling involved in them, but have duality with their damage.I don't think you're wrong about how Weapons are a relevant issue and it does hold back CC. However, Content isn't there for CC either.
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17 minutes ago, Tatersail said:
CC is very much alive after an hour or so in endless missions, CC takes over.... and then everyone leaves.
perhaps ESO is also the issue, it is supposed to be a fast scaling endgame for veteran players but it is currently KILL, 100% MURDER.
If ESO had alternate modes, Defend an objective from fast scaling mobs.
ESO , interception, capture, spy??? hmmm ..... .. survival CC relevent missions
Now, that's workable content. Could include some new enemies in there for CC frames to fight, like the one Colyeses mentioned above and we might be in business.
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20 minutes ago, Colyeses said:
We have one (1) relevant damage caster warframe and you guys are talking about sweeping nerfs to all casters.
If you guys are so concerned about damage output, why aren't you complaining about the Lenz, the Arca Plasmor, the Zarr, the Amprex? There's a whole host of weaponry that is far more potent than almost anything warframes can put out above level 30.
There's a range of enemies that are specifically designed to trip up warframe abilities and castrate them (Energy leech eximi, disruptor ancient, Isolator Bursa, Nullifier, Comba) and there's one enemy to trip up weapon damage. Higher levels are a nightmare for energy management because of the high concentration of Energy leeches, with any single one immediately completely blocking out Zenurik. (Which, by the way, no one picks anymore)
If you want CC to be relevant, you need to tone down damage output. But the damage output at high levels is NOT coming from Warframes unless it's Nidus in a 15+ minute run. It's coming from weapons which have been on a steep incline for years now. The reverse of what you're suggesting, harming ammo economy while keeping energy intact, would actually work much better to achieve what you're trying to aim for here.
SPEAKING OF...
Crippling energy economy also hurts CC frames, so you're shooting yourself in the foot there.
EDIT: Give the grineer a tactical suicide unit that is immune to damage except during some kind of wind-up, at which point their super-excessive armour would gradually deteriorate. CCing them while their armour is deteriorating would allow a longer, more effective window of opportunity to score the kill.
First, You quoted me, but did you read anything I said after that? I never said anything about "Nerfs to all Casters", unless you're talking about my recently posted controversial stab at the community to drum up discussion on the Energy Economy and Ability use. I want Trinity to stay as she is and, personally, want more Casters/CC frames to be more utilitarian in their application, like Harrow/Trinity. Bringing more team support to use on a global scale. However, I did bring up Energy Economy and how it does trivialize a ton of things, thus pushing out the need for CC in favor of Damage.
Secondly, Weapons are a mixed-bag issue. They're always going to trend upwards in power creep faster than Warframes, just due to the amount of content drops that are pushed out regularly. Hitting ammo economy is a good idea, since we have Carrier and the, rather unused, Conversion mods.
Also, Content isn't geared for CC which is a big determent to frames in that category. Adding units that require CC to handle would provide some reprieve, personally I was hoping the Ghouls were going to be it but alas that wasn't to be.
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16 minutes ago, Reifnir said:
Nope.
First off, not everybody plays in a group.
Your approach does NOT elevate team value, it just de-values solo play value of Zenurik. And it solves NOTHING in terms of preventing ability spam, because we can still get 400 energy over 30 seconds per SINGLE pizza, 125+ energy that bypasses channeled ability restrictions with every Arcane Energize proc, 25% base energy + increased energy cap with Syndicate procs, and pretty much unlimited energy with Rage/Hunter Adrenaline provided you can afford to take some damage.
Oh, and while we're at it... Ability spam is NOT a bad thing. Warframe is a horde shooter. We get kill counts in hundreds over missions that take minutes to complete. It's not a hardcore tactical stealth shooter at all. If you want to play that sort of game, why not look for a different title altogether? If anything, we need every Warframe to have innate energy regen to allow us to use abilities MORE, not less.
Get you to realize that posting cancerous suggestions just because an existing mechanic is not to your tastes is something you should consider not doing at all. Focus needs buffs to every single school, to make it much, much more powerful and appealing, not nerfs. As it stands now, after investing a lot of time to grind 52 million Focus Points you have half a dozen moderately useful abilities (I'm being generous here), the rest being underwhelming to say the least. This should not be the case for the amount of time and effort invested.
You're the type of person that I like to get to post because I like hearing about what you have to say.
First off, I play Solo too, who doesn't? However, a discussion is an all-inclusive activity that everyone can ping on. Whether or not you agree about the content or not. What are you gonna do? Report me for wanting a discussion on a topic?
Secondly, Team Value is determined by what each member brings to the table. Zenurik is a tool just like a Warframe, Energy Pizza, Arcane and so on, but when everyone uses the same tool, doesn't that devalue the overall worth of the team? I, personally, think there needs to be a looking at for how Energy is doled out on a global scale. I'm saying it's too easy to obtain to the point where it trivializes large swaths of the content. I brought that up in the form of the most pressing thing to get attention, Zenurik, because the discussion is fun.
Third, Ability spam isn't a bad thing per se, but it's definitely problematic. I'm not arguing creativity or anything of the like here, I'm arguing IF it trivializes content which in some cases it does. Plus there were numerous ways suggested to remedy it. Cooldowns were suggested in the past, maybe it's something to discuss again. However, the Energy Economy is also an option in limiting the spam as well, so it should be discussed as well.
Fourth, Your assumptions about me are baseless. I don't want Warframe to become a "Tactical Shooter" and I'm not going anywhere. Also, just because you see a potential discussion that hurts your FEELINGS as Cancer, only provides me more fuel for the fire since you're so hurt over this.
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4 minutes ago, Soketsu said:
Ok then I will just drop zenurik from something else than, and if I need energy I will just have to use trin, limbo, harrow octavia, alonng with red veil or suda weaponry is that really what you want ?
Would dropping it allow for teamwork to work? Yes. Do I want that? No, not really.
So what would you suggest we change to improve the discussion on this subject?
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Just now, Zanchak said:
In ESO its locked to the 4th ability, it's basically, you can use it twice then simaris slaps you with a 10 second cooldown and tells you to use something else. It's not much of course, and I don't mean use that exact thing, but something along those lines could help the spam overall rather than energy regen would, if that makes sense.
Sorry, thought you were talking about another game entirely for a second there. That would work and it would allow a limiter in normal play, good suggestion.
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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Snakeboy1990 said:
If it would be that much of a hassle to use then I probably wouldn't use it anymore. I would just spend some plat on arcane energize and call it a day. There are enemies that can drain all your energy in seconds and god help you if you use Blind Rage in your build.
So, how would you change the idea to make it better? As WSPY suggested, would you restrict it to being within the bubble? or would you try something else?
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Just now, Zanchak said:
Honestly? I'd be more inclined to consider frame ability cooldowns (similar to eso for example) than removing things that add a bit of QoL. When you're grinding up into the hundreds, that little bubble helps. As someone else said, the CC is what matters in those levels, this kind of thing would harm that only to appease the general starmap, so to speak.
Frame Ability cool-downs seem nice on paper, but limiting the acquisition of energy does the exact same thing without wide sweeping changes to how Frames function. Functional downsides provide a consideration to things, Cool-downs are a functional downside however don't you think that it's too late for Warframe to include them? Also, I've never played ESO, so the mechanics fall on deaf ears unless you're willing to explain more.
As for CC, that's an aside that's being discussed in another thread, but I'll summarize my views on that. Having a frame just be purely CC isn't viable without the content to back it up, so in the end they either evolve to incorporate utility, whether that be self or team, into the mix or they die by the wayside.
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1 minute ago, Zanchak said:
There are enough irritants being added to the game, removing what (I see as) a QoL perk that you have to work for, doesn't need to be one of them. Maybe Im just tired after so many hours and enjoy having something that removes some of the irritating from the game, but there are worse things, this wouldn't remove the spam, it'd just slap people who use it as a top up.
Oops Misread, then how would you change it to be better?
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Just now, felixsylvaris said:
So... players will switch to Madurai and use blue pizza with Trinity spectre.
Not really great change. No.
Never expected to get points with the change, expected discussion though. Thanks for the input none-the-less.
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1 minute ago, Zanchak said:
Or alternatively, leave it alone because I'm tired of it being touched. Tired of re-doing everything to satisfy people who don't just walk into a bubble and also enjoy the benefits of a top up when needed. Zenurik isn't the issue. Spammy players will spam regardless what focus they use.
Obviously, I don't want much changed about Zenurik either, but it is a part of the problem. I don't plan on making this a massive ordeal, like some think I am, I'm just bringing up a discussion piece for people to talk about, whether or not it has a tangible benefit or not.
And yes, they will spam, but in the end why make it easier when it's already dirt easy.
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7 minutes ago, WSPY said:
Or just make warframes have to stay inside the energy regen area to regen.. Dont need to cut the efficiency...
It was one of the most used Focus skill.. I think like 80% of all players use that.. You will make lots of enemy with this post.. Haha...
That works too, I went with the harshest method because I knew it would get a response. So thank you for not being a negative influence and providing a positive spin on the discussion. 👏
Also, Not like anyone likes me here anyway... 😛
6 minutes ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:This will be my last post on this subject in this thread.
For those playing easy Mercury its damage frames but for folks like me that like loooong kuva survival farming missions there is only cc.
Once into levels 160 or higher you do close to zero damage either with warframes ability or weapons thus the only viability is crowd control abilities and with energy limiting like you want you are destroying the type of game that i and others like.
Thank you for your opinion, your qualms have been noted. 🙄
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2 minutes ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:
Seriously wheres the down vote button?
What part did you miss on the boredom of getting focus points ?
Seriously you want no abilitys being used Except once in a great while?
Theres a game where its no ability used and just shooting.
Call of Duty aka boredom .
So with all due respect but no thanks !
You're fine with believing that, thanks for your opinion and have a good day.
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33 minutes ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:
No.
It cost a lot of focus points to max energy dash.
It cost a lot of focus points to max anything in any focus school.
A energy syphon aura is better than a basic energy dash.
Basic energy dash is what 1 energy per second for 30 seconds lol.
Syndicate suda weapons give energy so your ''proposal'' is lol
I think I made it clear, one point at a time. You're muddying the waters, but sure.
It costs 930K and some change to fully level the Energizing Dash, but even half leveled it gives plenty of energy (238K for 88 energy, that's a bargain). Most players can gain that with a few, if not one, run of Sanctuary Onslaught even with Mediocre gear. Also, the Basic Energy Dash (50K) gives 3 Energy per second for 10 seconds, which is 30 energy, but all that is if you leave the bubble immediately. Still pretty decent.
Now getting into the muddy bits here...
Energy Siphon (ES) is a continual and is stack-able on top of Energizing Dash (ED), both have only upsides and one more so than the other. ES gives Mod Energy, which is a massive boost to the Warframe's capacity to be modded. ED stacks with ES, which provides 8.4 Energy per second while used, but ES by itself only gives 0.6 energy per second at a consistent rate. It's pretty clear that even with ED at Level 1 it has more gains over ES (6 Energy over 10 Seconds).
As for Syndicate weapons, they have a Proc effect. Those require affinity to activate, which in part just regenerates 25% of the Warframe's energy reserves. They have a real downside since they cannot be activated quickly and have a cool down after activation.
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25 minutes ago, t3nka_XL said:
oh yes there are downsides:
energizing dash gives you 5 energy/sec. this doesn´t help when you quickly need 100 or more energy.
another downside... you have to activate zenurik. you can´t activate any other focus school for more dmg, better survivability, better support.
It gives you 5 Energy a second over 30 seconds, which is 150 Energy total in a short span of time. However, that's in addition to other methods of gaining energy like Orbs. Orbs are fairly prevalent and fairly easy to obtain, not to mention the initial perk in the Zenurik tree which grants 50% more energy from them over time and stack with more energy orbs obtained. There are downsides to the 5 Energy a second, but it stacks with other things which compounds the issue of "Easy Energy". Not to mention, the ability is easily spammable in any situation, orbs or not and fairly cheap to do so.
As for Activating Zenurik, that's a moot point. Most players that have completed the War Within have Zenurik unlocked at least for this, with 4 people in a cell you can be sure at least one of them will have it. If you're running solo, then that's on you and not a real downside since you've chosen to not use Zenurik. I get what you're saying, but the change I propose is justifiable.
Good points though. Thanks for the input.
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34 minutes ago, PrimeDCookieMonstah said:
You definitely didn't get it.
Oh I did get it, and just to answer your point. Unairu Wisp's placement on the Focus tree is of key precedence, it's about 160K into the tree and it only affects Operator Damage and not Warframe Damage. It doesn't need a hard Debuff because it's about one thing, Operator Damage.
As for Naramon's Void Stalker, it has an increased Operator Energy Cost for it's placement and it also has a gradual decrease in damage over time when the Operator leaves the mode. Plus, it you always have to start from Zero with it. Meaning it already has downsides which negatively affect its use.
There are real tangible downsides to these, unlike Energizing Dash which is all upside.
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1 hour ago, Urlan said:
I am afraid I don't see why an ability one had to unlock for cost has a debuff for using it. Rage gives energy for enduring damage, Zenurik went from from giving constant regen per mission, while Energizing Dash now gives a short time period of energy regen.
Well, I'd argue that Rage/Hunter Adrenaline has a real Drawback and that's Health. You have a finite amount and without it you're dead, there are ways to regenerate it but they're not always readily available or not on cool down (Medi-Ray). It's a Risk Vs Reward, that's what I'm getting at with Rage/Hunter Adrenaline so it's a point on the list, but a lesser one since it has a readily visible downside.
Now let's look at Energizing Dash, it has no Downside. The only thing restricting it from the entire player base is the War Within Questline, otherwise it has a minimal cost to get off the ground and with ESO a relatively easy farming method to fully max out. With it at max rank, you're getting 150 energy and at a rapid rate (5 Energy a second). However, even at just a rank 2 in Energizing Dash you're getting 45 energy fairly quickly (3 Energy a second). Adding in a downside, like a Energy Efficiency Debuff, would limit the spam greatly right out of the gate which would limit a "Fire and Forget" mentality in Damage Frames.
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Just now, PrimeDCookieMonstah said:
Basically you are saying lets put a pure debuff on Madurai VS and on Unairu Wisp because they are the most sought in eidolon hunts and make the eidolon hunting a peace of cake? Sure, why not.
Okay, did I say that? If you're not going to put up a proper argument that's on topic then you should get out of the thread and take your hasty generalizations with you.
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Okay! Just to clear the air, I'm editing this top post so we can all get on the same page without all the controversy that my initial post brought.
Just to get on point, my initial post which I will quote in all its trashy glory below, is an absolutely heavy-handed and opposite viewpoint to what I have. I chose that route to get views on a subject that I felt was something that should be discussed. You can hate me for that all you want, but this is something that should be discussed at all levels of Warframe. (Also, yes...I'm an A$$hole to people who run cyclical arguments and give me guff for bringing up a discussion. Caution is advised. Please Eject your VHS tape now.)
However, I do believe that Energizing Dash needs a looking at for the reasons of it having a comparable Energy Generator in the same tree (Energy Pulse). What I'm really getting at through the meandering of this thread is that the Energy Economy of Warframe is out of wack. We don't have enough costly spenders for the Energy we're given, so ability spam happens to compensate. So what do we do about it, do we increase the costs of all abilities (Ramping it up)? or reduce the amount of Energy generators we have (Nerfing)?Just to be clear, the Energy Economy is anything that Generates Energy and Spends that Energy. Nothing is off-limits here.
Now with the disclaimer out of the way, I can properly state my plan. Instead of Energizing Dash granting Energy, it will instead grant Energy Efficiency. There's a few reasons for this, but I will make this brief.
First off, this is to stop the Generation issue from propagating further.
Secondly, to expand build diversity outside of mods, giving a tangible feedback in the focus school to Warframes and Operators alike.
Third, give an option to counter Parasitic Eximus at higher levels with a quick burst of lower costs.
Fourth and finally, Giving heavy spenders a way to keep spending, but without a direct line to Easy Generators.
Also, I fully acknowledge that this isn't the only way to fix the problem, this is just my viewpoint and my idea. If you have another idea, feel free to discuss it. In addition, other means of generating energy are on the table as well, that includes Rage/Hunter Adrenaline, Energy Pizza, Arcane Energize, Syndicate Weapon Buffs, and so on. However, if you're going to argue for those, I'd suggest you read the entire post because I have brought up my views on them.
QuoteOLD POST
I already know this is going to be a hot and hated topic that won't get me many friends on these forums, but it needs to be stated.
Zenurik, namely Energizing Dash, has been causing a numerous amount of problems as of late. It's basically a "Free Energy" button with Minimal Investment or Downside, thus making Zenurik one of the most sought after Focus Schools in Warframe. It causes a host of issues, namely with Damage Focused Frames becoming less reliant on their team and more of self-masturbatory statement to unlimited damage numbers. One such victim of this unlimited energy is CC going the way of the dodo, with Radial or Wide Damage out-classing it at every turn. I'm not saying "DAMAGE IS BAD", but I'm saying that it should be costly, with real downsides, and shouldn't be a standalone solution to all problems.
Now I know there are other problems that grant infinite perpetual energy (Energy plates, Trinity, Weapon Abilities and so on), but let's break this down one key issue at a time.
What I propose is a change to the Energizing Dash ability, namely in the form of a pure Debuff. Simply put, place a hard, temporary Debuff on the Warframe (Not the Operator) that hits the Energy Efficiency of the frame by a flat 50% to 75% for the duration that the Energy buff is active. Nothing about this ability needs to change mechanically, but outside of operator mode it should have a real consequence. This would reduce the reliance on the Energizing Dash, but would also, change the way Damage Frames impact the battlefield so readily. Now, this won't bring back CC, but it would offer some small allowance to frames of that nature.
EDIT:
Yeah, I was intentionally controversial to get a discussion going here. I already knew the response of the player base before I did the post. I just like discussing the issues even if they don't have a tangible benefit on the game at the moment. Not to say all of the above was a falsehood, but it got ya...didn't it? 😉
Focus "3.0": Revamp to better incentivize Operator + Warframe gameplay
in General
Posted
All of my applause for this, gonna go read through it now.