DealerOfAbsolutes
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Posts posted by DealerOfAbsolutes
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By the time you get Hate, you'll probably have a dozen weapons you'd rather use. His weapons are more of a novelty.
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25 minutes ago, BDMblue said:
You can’t balance the mod system and not just end up with best setup for x gun.
Yes, the goal shouldn't be getting rid of Serration but having alternatives to it that benefit different styles of gun. How about?
Loaded Serration
+330% Damage
On hit: -165% damage for 2 seconds (stacks 2 times)
Slow firing weapons that can't stack status should get some love.
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I'd like to argue that the status changes devalued the 60/60 mods. Corrosive is now capped and with the removal of the 4x IPS proc priority, we can stack 10 elemental procs faster than before.
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Only Frost Prime may not be worth getting with nothing but a shield bonus over the original. Frost's abilities scale with armor.
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The argument for getting a single element is to save a slot that would have otherwise gone to a elemental mod when building for your desired elemental combo. That extra slot could be something like Argon Scope.
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The art team probably takes a lot of pride in the environments they make, but those environments clash with parkour mechanics. So much irregular geometry you can't scale. So many railings you can't climb over when you think you can. So many jagged edges that kill momentum. There are not enough walls to make Photon Jet or Arcane Aracne useful. The parkour in Warframe is a lot easier than say Gunz the Duel, but that old game had a lot of simple geometry that meshed well with movement. A lot of levels in Warframe just aren't designed for fluid parkour unfortunately.
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1 hour ago, FurianStorm said:
I go with Radiation as well.
Why? It's the only element that needs 2 mods to create. (if you want that)
I don't build on extra radiation. I just built what I want need at the time usualy cor or viral)
That way I have at least 2 elements on my kuva weapon. Cor/viral combined with radiation.
Is it meta? propably not.
Is it super smart to do? Propably not.
But I don't care I like it and to me that's what counts.It actually is a smart thing to do.
Case Study: 6000 Armor
6000 armor is roughly what Sortie 3 level Heavy Gunners and Bombards sport. It's a nice, easy number to work with.
Damage Reduction = Net Armor / (300+Net Armor)
~6000 armor is ~95% Damage Reduction.
10 Corrosive procs strips this armor by 80%, to ~1200, which is 80% Damage Reduction.
From 5% of your damage going through, to 20% is a 4x multiplier, which is slightly under the 4.25x multiplier Viral would give you.
However Corrosive has a +75% armor-class modifier against Ferrite. Armor-class modifiers double dip, boosting damage and mitigating armor by the same %.
Viral by contrast has a +75% health-class modifier against Cloned Flesh, which is a simple 1.75x multiplier.
Against a Heavy Gunner with Ferrite:
80% armor strip and 75% innate Ferrite mitigation, Corrosive will face an effective armor value of 5%, which is 300, which is 50% Damage Reduction.
From 5% damage going through to 50%, plus the 1.75x multplier is a 17.5x Multplier.
10 Viral procs with a 4.25x and 1.75x against Cloned Flesh is a 7.4x Multiplier.
Winner: Corrosive
Against a Bombard with Alloy:
Corrosive is only neutral to Alloy, so by stripping 80% armor, it's only a 4x Multiplier.
Winner: Viral
Added Heat proc:
A heat proc reduces armor by another 50%. ~6000 armor becomes ~3000. ~95% Damage Reduction becomes ~91% Damage Reduction. 9/5=1.8
A heat proc will give Viral an additional 1.8x mulplier, so against either of the Heavy Grineer units, Viral damage has a 13.32x Multiplier.
Heat's armor stripping is only additive with Corrosive's stripping and mitigation so:
A Heavy Gunner against Corrosive will have effectively, 2.5% armor (150), 33.3% DR. 66.6% damage goes through. 5% to 66.6% is a 13.32x. With that 1.75x, it's 23.31x Multiplier Against 6000 initial Ferrite.
Against a Bombard which Corrosive has no bonus, 10% armor remains (600), 66.6% DR. 5% to 33% is just a paltry 6.6x Multplier.
Case for Radiation bonus on Kuva Weapons:
Even at 60% Radiation, Radiation will be of lower proc priority than your chosen element and will get all the benefits of that main elements proc to synergize with it's bonus against Alloy.
At 10 Corrosive procs, Corrosive gets a 17.5x multiplier against Ferrite, but a paltry 4x against Alloy, but that small Radiation bonus will get that sweet 17.5x multiplier against Alloy from the Corrosive procs. If you had 120% Corrosive (2 60% Elementals) vs 60% Radiation, 2 times as much Corrosive as Radiation, 4x2=8 < 17.5.
Your 60% Radiation bonus will do 2.1x as much damage as the 120% Corrosive portion of your weapon against a Bombard. Half the value, but double the effective damage. 4.2x the Value.
With the change in status having 10 caps and now that over 100% status gives you a chance to get extra status procs, along with our multi-shot, we reach the 10 cap in seconds anyways.
Right from the get go, status or not, having both Corrosive and Radiation on a single weapon is powerful as it lets you normalize the ttk on a horde of Grineer.
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Rad gives you flexibility in that it won't mix with your other elements. Who knows how elemental damage will be reworked in the future? Corrosive was once the Golden child of damage until the status change. It used to be able to handle both Ferrite and Alloy by the strength of it's proc. It even outdamaged Rad. Now that's capped at 80 percent strip, it's still the best answer to Ferrite due to its innate bonus, but is worse than Viral against Alloy. Remember, all armor class modifiers double dip. Against a Sortie level Bombard, Rad does 6x more damage than neutral, so that tiny amount does do work.
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They already have Condition Overload vs Primed Pressure Point for Melee. Arcanes that boost base damage and Chroma challenge the value of base damage mods on a build. They just need more variants of the base damage mods for all the weapons. Maybe they could change the IPS mods to be like Blaze where it also gives Base damage so they aren't inherently worse than elemental mods?
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They should just have Nightwave credits last indefinitely and have us earn credits after every rank. Have everything normally available through rank up available for NW creds. Just change the skin of the store and add time exclusive items to the store when a new season rolls around along with cutscenes.
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The problem your facing was probably brought upon by the recent change in status.
In the past, this didn't matter so much, since Corrosive procs could strip Alloy armor off completely despite being neutral to it. Now that Corrosive is capped at 80% strip, it never overtakes Radiation in damage against Alloy armored units like Elite Lancers (most common Grineer unit) and Bombards. Corrosive's time as the best all-round damage type has past.
Armor-class modifiers (Bonuses against armor) double dip compared to Health-class modifiers. They boost damage by a percentage and mitigate the enemy armor value by the same percentage. Corrosive boosts damage by 75% against Ferrite armor and ignores 75% of Ferrite armor during damage calculation only. Radiation has the same bonus against Alloy armor. Corrosive is only neutral against Alloy Armor and has no hefty bonuses against it.
Blast is in fact a terrible damage type against Grineer and may actually do less damage than just straight up Heat or Cold because it has a negative -25% modifier against Ferrite that also double dips, doing 25% less damage and uses 125% of the enemy Ferrite armor during damage calculations. By contrast, Heat procs can strip armor by 50% and Cold has a +25% modifier against Alloy.
The Ignis itself is a pretty close range weapon, but has good AOE capabilities which makes it good for clearing out Fodder that are usually armored with Ferrite.
For Alloy armor enemies, you may want to mod your Melee weapon for Radiation. After the melee rework, they hit as hard as sniper rifles from a zero start and if you happen to have a stance for it, you probably don't need to potato or forma it. (Most melee weapons don't need forma at all to be good.)
If, you're in a Clan, the Anku is a pretty good weapon. It's a scythe and all scythes proc armor ignoring Slash procs on a Heavy Attack. It also is mostly Puncture, so it can deal with both Ferrite and Alloy armor if you mod if for Radiation.
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The problem with Nightwave right now is the intermission. Ranking up 5 times just to get a potato is just less efficient than farming prime junk.
I used to have a good dozen Catalysts until I started grinding for Kuva Liches, though that's really a superfluous problem of having too many weapons to spend Catalysts on which require weapon slots themselves, which themselves cost plat. Not to mention the setups required to hunt Liches.
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Forma used to be for bringing up weapons you liked up to par. With the introduction of Kuva weapons, I feel like I'm wasting Forma if I use them on anything else because other weapons don't give Mastery and Kuva weapons are generally top tier anyways.
Melee weapons don't need forma to clear Sorties.
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I'm hoping for IPS mods to be buffed. The fact that they only multiply the amount of IPS a weapon already has for that type makes them lag behind elemental mods, especially when getting into combined elements with their ridiculous modifiers.
The +30%IPS for Primaries, 60%IPS for Secondaries and 90%IPS mods for Melee should just be buffed to:
+90%BaseDamage/+90%IPS
Baro's 120% IPS mods would be:
+120%BaseDamage/+120%IPS
That would add some interesting build problems as that way they would compete with both Base Damage mods and Elemental mods for slots. Do you ditch elementals altogether and just go for max Base Damage Slash? Would Puncture/Heat be better than Corrosive considering the boon in Base damage? Do you ditch Base damage mods altogether?
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Combined elements are an order of magnitude stronger than single elements and IPS by design, but the caveat is that you have to sacrifice two mod slots to use them normally.
You never put on a third single element for damage, but for its status proc because +75% that combined elements sport is hefty, especially if it's an armor-class modifier.
Against a sortie level Heavy Gunner with 6000 Ferrite armor (95% Damage Reduction):
100 neutral damage would deal 5 damage.
100 Puncture which treats Ferrite armor as 3000 (91% Damage Reduction) with a 1.5x multiplier would deal 13.5. Almost 3X as much damage as neutral.
The gap between +50% and +75% armor-class modifiers is huge.
100 Corrosive which treats Ferrite armor as 1500 (83.3% Damage Reduction) with a 1.75x multiplier would deal 29. Almost 6X as much as neutral.
100 Viral with only a 1.75x Health-class modifier would only deal 8.75.
A mod like that would be utterly broken even if it only gave you +90%.
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19 minutes ago, zehne said:
This is where I disagree. When you already have corr + viral + heat on a weapon, add + 165% more heat damage shouldn't have such a small effect. To be clear, the reason why it has a small effect is because of the dillution of other procs, not because of damage.
Every other mod type, crit, multishot, base dmg, etc., if you add X amount and see it on the stat screen it adds X amount.
I'm not arguing the way the system works, i'm arguing that the way it works is not intuitive/ is deceiving. To that effect it'd be nice to have the system reworked or changed in a fashion so that this isn't the case, or if it stays the same, something that'll at least explain on the stats page the status chances.
But seeing how statuses are very much dominated by some types and others are completely neglected I think the best solution would be to change the existing system.
I'm well aware that the issue is the dilution of other procs for your Tysis example. I'm just pointing out that status isn't the only place where something deceiving like that arises.
Just as how statuses are dominated by some types (Viral, Slash), raw damage is also dominated by armor class-modifiers (Corrosive, Radiation).
Puncture has a +50% against Ferrite, but that bonus double dips.
Against a sortie level Heavy Gunner with 6000 armor (95% Damage Reduction):
100 neutral damage would deal 5 damage.
100 Puncture which treats armor as 3000 (91% Damage Reduction) with a 1.5x multiplier would deal 13.5. Almost 3X as much damage as neutral.
100 Corrosive which treats armor as 1500 (83.3% Damage Reduction) with a 1.75x multiplier would deal 29. Almost 6X as much as neutral.
This ridiculous mechanic is really the only reason why Corrosive still remains viable despite having its proc nerfed and why we bring it for Status Immune enemies like the Condrix.
From this, it can be concluded that our damage and status systems were already broken from the very beginning for years and we need Damage 3.0.
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3 minutes ago, zehne said:
Right, but it's the severity of it too.
Going from 3 60/60's to 3 60/60's + Primed heated saw a negligible effect on TTK despite nearly doubling the damage of the weapon on the stats page. Status should be reworked in a fashion so that this isn't an issue, or at least so that this isn't nearly as bad.
Before DE steps forward on balancing enemies DE should take steps to balance procs so that our damage output is more consistent. From there they could then get a more accurate read on what needs to be done with enemies. If DE 'balances' enemies and then tries to balance weapons they'll end up having to balance enemies again.
As it should be. It's proof that the complaints about lack of space for Exilus mods is moot. Proof that the optimal build is not just slapping as much damage as you can.
Proc pool dilution is an important factor in builds, but so are enemy resistances.
The double dipping nature of armor-class modifiers is why building for a bit more Radiation is better than putting on Primed Cryo Rounds when Eidolon Hunting. A +60% of Heat or Electric nets you more damage than +165% Cold. In the case of Eidolons, Radiation triple dips against them as they have Robotic Health.
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Instead of IPS/Status mods, how about IPS/Base damage mods in the same vein as Blaze?
Buff all the +30%IPS mods to +90% Base Damage / +90% IPS would lead to some interesting choices as they would innately give more damage than elemental mods.
With a +120%BaseDamage/IPS from Baro, there would be a lot of interesting things to think about. Max out Base damage for Slash procs? Skip out on Serration altogether?
With most statuses capped at 10, I'm hoping for an OVERSTATUS Dot. After 10 stacks of a non-Dot proc, each subsequent proc deals 150% of that element as additional damage upfront?
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On 2020-04-09 at 10:41 AM, zehne said:
Regardless of your comment:
- Equipping Damage mod (serration, etc) Increases your damage output
- Equipping Crit chance mod Increases your damage output
- Equipping Crit Damage mod Increases your damage output
- Equipping Status mod Increases your damage output
- Equipping fire rate mod Increases your damage output
- Equipping multishot mod Increases your damage output
- Equipping IPS/Elemental mod sometimes lowers your damage output
One of these things is not like the others. Considering that the IPS/Elemental mods have 'Damage' in their description, always increasing damage should be a thing. The sole reason for this is how status works.
I have a crazy (maybe not so crazy) idea of how status could be 'fixed', make status effects damage based. I.e. enemies need to take X fire/tox/etc damage to be procced. Instead of status chance we have status potency. So if an enemy needs 100 fire damage to proc fire and your weapon does 100 fire damage but has a status potency of 50%, it'll take 2 shots to trigger a fire proc. If your weapon has a 10% potency you need to deal 1000 fire damage to trigger a proc. In this manner you would fix 'diluting status procs' which then fixes the issue with lowering dps because you added more damage mods. In this new fashion you would only add more procs instead of redistributing their probabilities. Also, it would lessen the RNG. Of course the biggest issue with this is weapon damage based damage procs, but you'd just need to rescale the damage calc based on X number of procs on target. Also, this would make it so that balancing for DE is easier. Procs could reliably then be factored into the 'dps' a weapon does so that when making up numbers for a weapon it isn't secretly OP or under-powered because status was 5% too high/low.
It would for the most part work nearly the same as now if the 'proc health' of enemies is balanced right the key difference being that you'd never end up doing less damage because you added an IPS mod. Only less damage if you built the wrong elements(+ element to a - element like going from a single heat mod to heat + elec when fighting infested).
Yes, diluting the status procs can lower your DPS if you get less Slash. That's the same issue of -Impact and -Puncture Rivens increasing DPS by concentrating the status procs onto your elements and Slash. That's why Hunter Munitions is so strong despite it not giving you any upfront +%damage.
Bleed is heads and shoulders above all of the procs and Viral synergies with everything.
Still, that isn't the only case where adding more Elemental mods, lowers your damage. A lot of new players used to throw on all the elemental mods they could get and build for Corrosive/Blast, ignoring the fact that Blast has a double dipping negative armor modifier against Ferrite and competed with Corrosive procs. It's why 60/60 mods are generally better than the 90% elemental mods despite giving less upfront damage. I still remember Leyzar's video where slapping on a +120% Puncture mod (Piercing Caliber) onto the Dera Vandal lowered TTK by preventing over-strip.
It's good that slapping more damage doesn't necessarily give you faster TTK and that not all weapons can be optimized using the same build even if the mathematically optimal build isn't intuitive and defies our natural common sense. A common complaint about Warframe's modding system is that there wasn't any reason not to put on more damage and mandatory mods, but with status, it isn't necessarily true.
Though, I do agree that after the changes procs that aren't Slash or Viral are pretty worthless.
Though that isn't the only thing broken with Damage 2.0. The fact that armor-class modifiers double dip is another thing that isn't obvious. It was the reason why Corpus with their Puncture weapons seemed to be doing 4x as much damage to us than Grineer with their Impact, because they were when Warframes had Ferrite armor not too long ago.
IPS mods do not work like Elemental mods despite being described the same, but if they did, everyone would just slap on Slash.
The IPS mods are underpowered and niche, especially the bronze +30% IPS mods. The common IPS mods all need to be bumped up to 90% to match melee.
If they were like Blaze, where they gave both +%Base damage and +% Element, then it would open up some interesting modding decisions in that it would be competing with both Serration and Elemental mods. The same problem that arises with the 60/60 elemental VS 90% elemental.
Another idea is that they could add "Overstatus" DOT when we go past the initial cap of 10 where it just deals %150 of our Elemental damage for that type on proc?
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Some weapons are stronger than others to justify the grind and Mastery ranks. Early weapons were designed explicitly to be fodder with strictly worse numbers that you toss out of the airlock of your Orbiter.
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The simplest way to buff the IPS mods with minimal change would be to copy Blaze. Just have the mod give +% base damage equal to the +% IPS.
Buff all the regular ones to +%90 to match melee, because melee is inherently the strongest thing we have anyways. The bronze mods for primaries already cost more to equip.
That would open up some interesting choices. With +120% mods Baro brings, we may consider them over base damage mods on a traditional damage build, but they would compete with Heavy Caliber on a Hunter Munitions build.
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The thing I always wondered was why did it have the second fastest charge time out of the bows?
The regular bows need to have another charge time buff.
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If only Puncture damage gave weapons some level of innate punch through. Like 0.1m per 100 Puncture. Puncture needs more love.
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That's not to mention that the tankiest Corpus enemies have Alloy armor under those shields which resists Magnetic. Half damage and 150% armor? Weapon switching isn't fast enough in this game to play it like Halo.
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What ever happened to the sentients
in General Discussion
Posted
They used be builders but now all they make is war.
Just like the Grineer.