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master_of_destiny

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Posts posted by master_of_destiny

  1. 7 hours ago, Twisted_Wisdom said:

    This still sucks for players that play warframe solo. Solo avoids host migration; would avoid having to spend way too much time in recruiting chat to get RJ squad because can't host RJ missions any other way than solo. And what about those that have ping issues because of host of group doesn't have fast internet connection > another reason to solo.
    Why penalize solo players?!

    37.5% chance to get Holokey is also 62.5% chance to get zero Holokey, its not about 1 chance in 3 to get it, its 62.5 chances out of 100 to end up with zero.
    Corrupted Holokeys needs to be guaranteed drop of however many, not rng based.
    I'm a collect-the-whole-set kinda player but if farming holokeys is left as is, i won't be farming the Tenet Melee weapons. I have more self respect than that. I made it to MR L1 so its not like i don't put in the effort.

     

    8 hours ago, Twisted_Wisdom said:

    Except we need 120 holokeys for to get one of each of the 3 tenet melee weapons. On top of this they are not 100% bonus damage, so we have to wait for however how long for Ergo Glast to stock something with the wanted bonus damage type and %, and spend another 40 holokeys per weapon for each weapon required to get to 60%.
    Took me about 2 years to get all the Stalker weapons (and from what i hear from other players I've had good luck). If/when he didn't drop any, i felt no dissatisfaction because i didn't spend hours trying to farm them to get what felt like nothing in return for the effort. If/when the stalker did drop a weapon, it was icing. Same for Zanuka Hunter, the Wolf.
    I would rather farm Harrow repeatedly than farm Corrupted Holokeys, the drop rate feels that bad.
    If i got one key per mission, i would be fine with that as opposed to how it is atm or with this proposed update (which penalizes solo play).

     

    8 hours ago, Twisted_Wisdom said:

    good idea except have already had so many hounds that had to sell them for silver.  >.<

     

    8 hours ago, Twisted_Wisdom said:

    its incentive to buy the weapon from the market.

     

    The above is an example of multiquote.  It's the little plus sign at the bottom left of the post, and allows you to take multiple points into a single response.  If this is new to you, fantastic.  Consider this a tutorial on proper procedure.  If you already know this, then I'd like to refer back to the ToS you clicked yes on, stating that spam posting is a no-no.  I'm providing this, because it's pretty silly to see a half dozen posts from one person.

     

    Now...the other bits.

    1) Hounds are 100% a mess.  1 potential part drop, on top of 1 holokey, after the extended grind of a sister is just nutty.  The ability to sell a hound for "silver" is something new though.  As in, the only usage I'm aware of is grinding them to level 30, and selling them of Fortuna for standing.  

    2) Then Ambassador is not related to holokeys.  While I appreciate your anger...it's not in the right place here.  In addition, DE is addressing this somewhat.  I say somewhat because they've admitted to the fact that a new enemy had no drop table...still has no drop table, and that the update will finally give them a drop table.   Of course, no information on what will be in said drop table...  Nothing quite like killing another variant of raknoid a 5% drop chance...requiring 4 separate drops...where they spawn at best every 4 minutes.

    3) The 37.5% drop chance and 62.5% non drop chance is not somehow magically different.  It's funny that you should say that...because it fundamentally draws a line between the failures and successes that has no right to exist.  What is easier to understand is that the propensity to get no drops exists.  The amount of the drop is fixed based upon the area.  The amount of drops required just to get one of each item is currently fixed (assuming no more are introduced).  So...I need 160 keys.  I get up to 5.  I therefore need 32 drops at 5 keys.  I can find the average drops per run, based upon the drop chance...which is 5*.375 = 1.875.  This means the average run count, based upon functionally infinite runs, is 160/1.875=  85.333 = 86 runs.

    Min = 32 runs

    Average = 86 runs

    Max = infinite runs (based upon population size being functionally limitless)

    If we run at 10 minutes of each chance, that's 320 minutes to 860 minutes.....or 5 hours and 20 minutes to 14 hours and 20 minutes....assuming that we're in the better 50% of the pool.  50% of people are going to be spending potentially way longer....because if you earn these 3 at a time instead of 5 the math becomes far more depressing.

    Shorting this one, math is not detachable.  While I agree with your conclusion, cutting it apart is not academically honest.  We can hold ourselves to a higher standard than DE on this one, can't we?

    4) The Harrow farm is also changing.  Again, listed on the developer stream but not on this forum as far as I can find.  I've already cited the Harrow farm of Defection missions as a hyperbolic but painful mathematical truth.  At the same time, the Harrow farm has a different issue.  The rewards to time investment sucks.  The game mode is based around escort missions....for stone stupid AIs.  It's also balanced for a team...given how quickly the AIs being escorted can die from literally anything...despite the fact that they don't stay together.  My problem here is that so much about Defections is broken that it's another huge things to comment upon.  Getting into this in-depth, when the core topic is holokey drop rates, and DE has already demonstrated that they give not one f*** about feedback is going to be a waste of our time.

     

     

     

    Shorting this, I agree with your premises but the execution needs work.  Isn't it fantastic to see the same argument made differently, so that you can understand why your opposition might exist, and what they might focus on?  I say that not with any sarcasm...learning allows us to make better arguments, and to see why our own point of view has flaws.  That doesn't make it wrong or bad, but it does allows us to proactively address those flaws.

    • Like 5
  2. 12 hours ago, OP-R8R said:

    Let's stick with the cynical part.

    You are correct, there high rolls available right now (two weapons). Not necessarily perfect rolls, not necessarily the element players want.
    How long are they available? 4 days?
    So the players would need to earn 80 holokeys in that timeframe.
    Two days are almost over, which I spent exclusively doing void storms and I got the incredible amount of 7 keys. 7 of 80.
    And like I said.... not maxed out... not the elements players might want.

     

    You know, from the outside it looks like the two of you are expressing the same thing.  Namely, the rewards for the input effort are high...and that there's a fundamental misunderstanding of how the players providing feedback saw this going.

     

    Let me explain.  You are stating that the 37.5% drop chances make getting rewards painful, given the propensity for failure.  Your chances of getting nothing is 0.625n where n represents the number of runs....and that's just too little of a chance when there are 4 required weapons, you'll need to earn multiple to max the benefits, and on top of all of this right now it takes a minimum of 8 drops in the veil to get the 40 keys needed for any one drop.  Ouch.

     

    What I read into the post quoted is that the sudden propensity for 50+% bonus items is suspicious.  As in DE is suddenly going to rewrite how the bonus percentages are awarded...with the doubling of rewards in only one area...with the same bad drop chances.  As in, you'll now need 3-4 minimum copies of each weapon because they'll basically be stuck at 30% or less...but requiring double the weapons will be "balanced out" by having the reward quantity doubled in one area.  DE will then pretend that this was not an "intentional" change...and hide the extension of the grind.

     

     

    What I see is frustration with a badly designed rewards system, built heavily on RNG, in a game mode that has been dramatically lengthened over time, and now features wtf deaths because a void tear opened up on you and simply killed you.  Hmmm....it almost seems like that's what people have been saying from the start of the thread...and DE entirely ignored.  

    • Like 2
  3. So...  It's been a few more weeks since things have actually received any real update.  Let's talk.

     

    1) Not sure when this started...but I cannot play Mutalist Alad V or Jordas Golem fights back to back.  If you try to "Repeat Mission" it fails to establish a session and dumps you back to the orbiter.  Now...that might make sense if I didn't have 6 keys and one of the missions required no key.  

    2) Grineer sealab tileset.  Data vault from spy missions.  The one with 4 enemies in the vault, and assuming you enter the vault oriented such that the entrance is bottom center there are three levels (center, bottom, and a vent network with a pair of scanners at the top).  If you don't perfectly line up with the first grineer you can't perform a stealth kill.  The floor geometry raises just far enough to preclude a stealth takedown...because.

    3) Speaking of fun new mechanics, did you know that you still have pets dying for no reason on the Eris tileset...and killing yourself doesn't respawn them?  Yeah...figured that out today.

    4) Now the fun bit.  I main Zephyr.  The day you decided to not have capture targets and other stuff be affected by Tornado was amazing, because it meant I could finally use it without being a troll.  Well, guess what.  Guess which item is still influenced by Tornado.  If you guessed the resurgence burdens on arbitrations you'd be right.  I try to lay down AoE control, and every single burden flies up into the ceiling.  Their hitboxes are such that even ramming your warframe into the ceiling doesn't count as picking them up.  Joy...Zephyr is now incapable of area control while trying to resurrect a team mate...while health is crippled due to the burden..,and there's at least one player who can do nothing.  I'd ask if you play test this crap, because it didn't do this months ago.  At the same time, I already know the answer given the instant death toxin clouds.  Please fix this.  Otherwise playing Zephyr is actively hurting your team.

    5) The corpus ship tilest still spawns a medallion inside the jail cell during a rescue mission.  If you're lucky the tube can be hacked.  You then have to wall jump and latch onto the top of the inside tube wall, and spam x.  It'll allow you to get the medallion, without ever sowing the prompt, because QA after more than a year still hasn't been able to get this fixed by the programming department.

     

     

    Top notch here DE.  Rereleasing an old prime pack somehow breaks other systems....because that makes sense while "everyone is working on the new war."  You say that like it's special...but what is the alternative?  If the next update is the new war (or more accurately the next content update), then who would be working elsewhere?  It's not like you've got any real investment into other stuff.

    • Like 5
  4. On 2021-08-28 at 1:29 PM, Talinthis said:

    I pretty well gave up on them, haven't logged on in many months. Map waypoints are still bugged from when sanctuary onslaught came out, has never been fixed. I had a bunch of things like that but i can't find my list anymore. Any time i come here i am just disappointed by patch notes, lol. Did they release that mod where you can't even equip a melee to make your weapon stronger yet?

     

    DE always felt like a home ran business than an actual professional dev team to me. I love the guys but man nothing they release is actually good when it comes out. All they do is nerf things i have fun with 2-3+ years later after it has existed. They always say it was "never intended" or they "decide" that it needs to be changed after all this time.

    So...I want to say that frustration is abound.  At the same time, let's at least try to keep this related (if tangentially) to the holokeys.

     

    Let me, for just a moment, frame this in a different light from the usual.  DE knows that they're releasing garbage drop rates...and that they'll gain notice for these systems because some angry reddit group will call them out.  This will in-turn gain PR.  No PR is bad PR...and people will try out the game.  The grind minimization at the beginning of this game, combined with the tutorial that people have requested for years finally being implemented, will get DE new players based off of negative feedback.

     

     

    So...negative feedback is a positive for DE....and saying that hurts my brain.  Fine.  Let's then look at what veterans bring to the table.  Well toroids, scintillant, and corrupted holokeys are now all in the same category.  Items DE has released, the drops are "broken" at release and after about two to three months are magically "fixed" before being forgotten.  Why would they do this?  Well, the simple answer is to put a huge grind wall in for early adopters, and then to look like they're listening to feedback months later when the people who don't have their lives revolving around this game finally have something to earn.  I can't be the only one who basically saw this as necramech mods 2.0....where the drop rate for mods was so low that it'd literally take thousands of runs to earn the things....assuming DE ever did the math and figured out there was no mathematical way to equip a mod in all slots due to their costing....assuming you had 12/12 polarized slots.

     

    So, what is my feedback now?  Well, my feedback is that no feedback to DE matters.  Not unless I'm a member of their unpaid sales force (youtubers), or a celebrity of sorts.  I've recently been watching the Josh Hayes videos...and it's apparent to me that they've got their new poster boy.  He didn't play far enough to unlock 98% of the content, but he's willing to gush over what took the better part of a decade to put in-game...while spending the barest minimum time on criticism of the fundamentally flawed nature of every release for the last four years.  Oh boy, someone willing to miss the forest for the trees....because they simply cannot understand that every release is an abomination in some form....that takes months to be good, assuming it ever is.  How is that "accomplishment" of grinding out the Hema research...I say, having it but gladly looking forward to its cost being 10% of current for any new players to research.

    Oh, but what about the Ignis Wraith.  Assuming you were active at the right time, your clan could produce the blue prints for in-game resources...and years later it's a vestigial reward.

    But bringing this back, DE can choose to make a garbage release, and it doesn't hurt them.  They can consistently do so, and there's no penalty.  If this is the case, and they can literally just ignore consistent feedback, then who cares?  This level of ego eventually will collapse the community until those remaining are whales and newcomers...which is only a problem if you cannot support the community by collapsing multiple platforms into crossplay as the community on platforms thins.  Between that, and taking beloved events (read: formastar...I mean Plaguestar) away only to bring them back as a "gift to the community" bouyed by an unprecedented two months of weekend booster events, you don't need to listen.

     

     

    Let me short this to you DE.  I know you've got someone to cull threads, and hopefully they're also listening.  Six years ago you has a die hard base.  People who would buy into the full AAA price multiple times a year, through Prime Access.  Now, it's impossible to do that.  You suck the fun out of the game when I'm being forced to grind your game modes to improve engagement numbers, because a 37.5% drop chance is what you've tied core content to.  To clarify, that's the corrupted holokey system.  I cannot support this level of crass hatred for the people who allow you to milk the whales willing to be fashion divas at the expense of real money.  Especially not when the exact same costs for skins in Fallout  76 were a joke...that you somehow decided was not really a joke.

    Swing and a miss...that has me hoping engagement tanks further.  The Dime, which you should understand, won't let things fail...and maybe a hard enough kick to the teeth will make DE reconsider their inability to make a good game first, and trust their fans to give them money because it's fun to play.  No, it's so much better to have a 0.00066% chance drop...that's the Bite mod btw...to force grind.  Yeah...it's not Korean grind MMO levels...but neither DE nor I live in Korea where that's acceptable either.

    • Like 8
  5. So....I'm disappointed.  

     

    As per usual, DE has double standards.  They identify that there's a problem.  They put out a non-fix, in a thread requesting feedback.  They wait weeks before addressing it in a developer stream...where literally none of the feedback was even acknowledged.  

     

    Oh...but there are some people here who said everything was fine...  Ahh.  You've cited that joyful selective listening that DE gets away with, as though it was a positive.  As long as one person says it's good in a forum where there are 19+ pages of comments stating that it's bad, DE listened to feedback.

     

     

    Why even expect better?  The holokeys are a sticking point.  The new enemies were released without a drop table.  Yareli's getting the numerical buffs...also without feedback.  Oh, but we can forgive everything, right?  DE's reintroducing Plaguestar...with the ghoulsaw...  Yay.  Another limited time event locking content behind it, that if they pull the crap they did last year will literally mean that nobody can earn it about 90% of the year.  Come on DE...did you think the weekend boosters were enough that the rest of this garbage, and having basically all feedback ignored, would be a good look?

     

    F***.  I don't have any more eloquent way to put this...and at this point, it deserves nothing better.

     

     

    Oh, but Nidus Prime comes with the Strun Prime.  A weapon with a MK-1, standard, and wraith version already.  Oh joy...it'll be the Braton all over again.  How do you expect the community to respond to this?  I mean, it's not like Nidus released with two weapons that would be unique to see a prime of (say, the Hema and Hirudo)...oh wait...Nidus released with those exact same weapons in 19.5.  Oh boy, the disappointment from holokeys now has actual competition...  Yes, that's my link to the topic, to not be off-topic.  Disappointment for this, framed by disappointment all around.

    • Like 9
  6. 12 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:


    Yep I was cracking relics like you, got the first drop as a Parazon mod, then it didn't matter what radient level I used, the relic just dropped Kuva Kuva Kuva, until I changed the relic, or I said screw this and came back to it later on and hoped it had reset.

     

    So...the first step here is to do the math and determine if things are reasonable.  That's rather trivial, with a quick look on the wiki.  At absolute worst any common drop has a 25.33% drop chance, and at most a 16.67% drop chance.  Using only those extremes, it's basically trivial to calculate a number of runs where most people would have a trivial ability to constantly get the same reward, here represented by a 10% chance at getting only that one drop.

    0.10 = (0.2533)n  ;  log(0.2533)n = log(0.1)  ;   n= log(0.1)/log(.2533)

    n = 1.677  ;  n = 2

    After 2 rolls of a relic you've got what is functionally a trivial chance to roll the same reward....assuming that you never use a single radiant one.  The fun bit here it that this equation basically means that for a radiant relic you should basically get a new reward every single time.  That's the fun bit when the difference between highs is 16.67% and lows is 10%.

    -If it is unclear, I agree with your thesis.  Something is rotten in this land of Denmark.-

     

     

    Now....why did I do that math?  I'm trying to prove your point mathematically, instead of anecdotally.  I agree with you that the RNG roll is pretty much absolutely busted.  The probability that any 4 people get the exact same 25.33% roll is 0.4%.  Logically then, getting two of these in a row is functionally 0.002%.  I've not opened nearly this many relics, but I've had more than two instance where all three of us earned a single ayatan, or all earned kuva, or better yet running twice yielded the same results back-to-back.

    I've set out the effort to do the math to demonstrate this is not anecdote.  If it were a 1%, or even 0.01% chance that this happened I'd be frustrated...but willing to accept this.  That said, the fact that this has happened enough to be noticed by many people is...functionally frightening.  It points towards something not truly RNG....and potentially more shaped.  That's concerning...as the best possible answer is that the shaping is due to communication and negotiation errors, instead of outright controlling player rewards as a means to have "RNG" rewards that drive real money purchases to compensate for poor drops.  Think the shaped matchmaking where players are forced to go up against people with similar play styles, but basically goaded into real money purchases because a whale decided to put money down and buy a cash shop item to win.

     

     

    Am I accusing DE of this...?  I actually am.  I'm praying for the fact that this is incompetence.  Miles of spaghetti code, negotiating with servers that are often incapable of maintaining stability given the patchwork nature of the game, lend multiple opportunities where it's understandable to have issues.  That said...I think maybe DE should review.  I have plenty of anecdotal experience here.  Other players seem to be able to see the same.  It's interesting when it benefits players...but 70+ radiant relics into this and I am almost at 7 Octavia Prime blue prints.  That's my 70+...with several of those groups also including multiple radiants from other players.  I find it immensely difficult to consistently experience things like this...and worse... 

    Two months.  That's 60 days, with two runs a day.  That's 120 runs.  0.9799120 = 8.7%.  Why use these numbers?  ESO.  2.01% drop rate for the Braton Vandal blue print.  120 runs to get it to drop.  8.6% of people have to run more, and 91.4% of people had to run less.  20 minutes/run * 120 runs = 2400 minutes or 40 hours of gameplay.  That's an entire week of a job....assuming you only have 8 hours a day...to earn a weapon that is absolutely master rank fodder.  Yeah....I think between having no appreciation for some of these drop rates, player time investments, and statistically improbable outcomes that maybe your RNG engine is borked...  That's an issue if 99% of your engagement is designed around the grind to get RNG drops.

    • Like 6
  7. 3 hours ago, _COY_ said:

    If you don't believe me, why don't you try to optimize your group and test it yourself?
    Tether is useless now, use Rockets only!

    I wrote how to do it, it is not that complicated in Saturn skirmish:
    1 piloting, 1 in the artillery all the time - both don't leave their position!
    (I recommend to use Lavos because of energy management to use battle avionics)
    The other 2 jump out of air-lock and fly straight to the objective and clear the room.
    The pilot fly to the objective after a minute to clear the outside nodes, while the other 2 stay inside

    Our best time was 1:58 but most times somewhere between 2-3 minutes.
    Though, the first 3 runs usually take half a minute longer, because my front artillery has only 3 shots in the beginning.
    So I needed to port to the forge and back one time during the first few missions.

    Give it a shot, you'll see it works

    -c0y

     

     

    I don't need to believe you or not believe you.  It's kind of funny that you should tackle this as a belief thing.  It's also fundamentally wrong-headed.

     

    If the drop rate is 37.5%, and you round a bit, that's about one drop every 3 runs.  You reported a 12-20 per hour reward rate.  That's trivial to do the math with....because 12/4 = 3.  3*3=9.  You are thus stating that you are completing 9 runs in 60 minutes.  None of this is about belief, it's about hard math.

     

    Now, the optimization bit is also fundamentally wrongheaded.  If you did run a mission every three minutes....which I will give you as a basic ship destruction and exterminate, you'd be running at 20 runs per hour.  OK....what's the reward rate then?  Well, that's also trivial math.  4/20 = 1/5 = 20%.  Hmmm....so you're saying the effective reward rate is 20% instead of the 37.5% advertised.  That doesn't jibe.

     

    Well, maybe instead of this you want to claim an edge case.  Maybe you're looking at 20 runs in an hour...and you can earn between 0 and 80 corrupted holokeys.  Of course, your average is still listed as between 12 and 20...so you're at less than 25% of the potential...which also indicates that your math is either terrible or you've not reported things out correctly.

     

     

     

    Why have I run down every potential, when at the end of the day I could have just called shenanigans on your numbers?  Why also am I not compelled to "try it myself."  Well....when every single attempt to run the numbers is driving me to either a substantially lower drop rate than advertised, or absolutely terrible math, and my anecdotal experience tells me that this is not possible with even basic missions then I've got to question the provided premises.  Considering I got to rank 10 on all five of the intrinsics, my experience in the systems is non-trivial.  Considering I've got multiple Sevagoths, Nautilus, and still haven't earned a Tenet melee (full disclosure, because the grind sucks it's not being pursued) my experience is non-trivial.

    Now...let's tally this up.  Your drop rates do not match with the advertised in any meaningful way.  Your times are trivial to cite as either fabricated, or extremely optimistic.  Your premise is to have a super dedicated grind group...when the first step of each mission is to spend the 30-60 seconds of simply getting near a corpus pillar to know what the objectives are...and then completing them and completing your void storm objective in the remaining 30 to 120 second to have a total 2-3 minute window is...baffling.  Despite this, the advice of "you should spend your time to prove me wrong by grinding this" is the retort.

     

     

    Let me do this colorfully, and to the extreme.  I do not have to know how it will feel to not stick my hand into a blender.  I know that the blender is capable of liquefying meat.  I know my hand is made out of meat.  Thus, hand in blender is stupid.  You're telling me that everything is fine, sitting there with a mangled mass of meat at the end of a stump...because you're fine with it.  I pity that you've so little respect for yourself, but that's not my problem to fix.  Mine is to petition the blender maker to restrict the speed of the blades, so that I can extricate my hand before it gets mangled.  That's the goal here...  Grind, and the blender, is not inherently bad.  What is bad is when things become a complete toss-up as to whether they're rewarding for how much effort is put in...especially when your time is at a premium...  If you have little value for your time that's fine....but if that's the case I recommend you go and farm the mod Bite...

     

    Once you've got about 10 of those, I'll listen.  Otherwise, what you've demonstrated here is not "fine."  You've adequately demonstrated cognitive dissociation with reality.  Being crass, it's almost Stockholm's syndrome.

    • Like 5
  8. 14 hours ago, tomwork27 said:

    the voidstorm changes, not the sister drops

    they don't have to be packaged together

    '

    The team is still working on those to ensure multiplayer functionality doesn't have issues (came across a couple).

     

     

    The point is that DE stated there were issues, holding this up.  They did not quantify sisters, or other changes.  

  9. 2 hours ago, stegmaier said:

    "Join us on twitch.tv/warframe and earn an Umbra Forma Blueprint for watching! "

    I'm very frustrated with this.  DE forgets they have Asia/Pacific area players.

     

    So....it isn't just you.  People who are employed on first shift in their region are also out of luck.  2pm is basically not viable in the EST, CST, MTN, and PST time zones within the Americas.

     

    That said...it's fun to see that they're finally doing things again.  More than a month before any of it is reviewed is frustrating.  That said, my money is that the "reveal" of the new Plague Star event is going to include the "new" ghoul saw.  Considering that it was "almost done" months ago it should finally make its debut.  That's...potentially nice.  I'm waiting for the thing to be purchased as a blueprint, and having to grind a slightly modified drop table to get the parts.  That level of frustration is what I expect by this point.

     

     

    That said...it's a blue print for an umbra forma.  At this point, how many forma do you actually need?  There are three total umbral mods...and many frame simply cannot see a benefit from them.  I'd be far more frustrated personally if there was a potential for these to be game changers.  That said, 12 built umbra forma sitting in my inventory.  They just don't seem to be necessary...though I can see the counter argument.  That said, Rolling Guard and Adaptation make anything short of an Inaros level tank functionally only viable as a lower skill requirement alternative...which pays for the lower skill cap with insane mod capacity costs. 

    Maybe Nidus Prime will bring something...that said Gara Prime was May 25th.  It's now August 24th with no announcement.  The announcements are generally a week or two before the new prime comes out.  At best they announce Nidus coming later this week.  That would be a September 7th release date.  Just Steel Path rewards would cover buying Nidus 3 umbral forma...given a blue print available this week, another October 17th, and a third December 12th.  Of course, there's no discussion yet about what Nidus Prime will bring to the table.  It's not like the default isn't already insanely powerful.

    • Like 4
  10. 57 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

    ....

    Again, I'm honestly flabbergasted that these kinds of fixes weren't part of her base kit by default, let alone that DE is delaying adding these kinds of fixes to them.

    A few synergies wouldn't be bad, but the abilities should be worth using on their own.

     

    On 2021-08-20 at 10:49 PM, Grav_Starstrider said:

    Reminder to everyone though, Synergies are practically equivalent to asking for a Warframe's base abilities to be less effective, forcing encouraging players to use all abilities more proactively in order to gain the maximum effectiveness. It's also just as fine for a Warframe's individual abilities to be individually potent and fun to use without Synergies, and actually makes them more compelling candidates for Infusing other Warframe abilities, since you aren't ruining a Synergy, and also makes their Subsumed ability a not-innately-neutered-by-the-absent-synergy ability.

     

    So...let me frame this discussion.  

     

    What do you think DE should do?  I've quoted the two statements above.  It should offer clarity.

    1) Should DE simply increase values?  Well, no.

    2) Should DE introduce synergies?  Well, no.

    3) Should Yareli somehow have a synergy with powers, that is lost if subsumed?  You quote Zephyr...so no.  Funny then that Sevagoth's Gloom exists...but ignore that.  Also funny that no other frames are considered.  I mean:

    Atlas - If petrify is subsumed you lose the synergy with landslide...and do not get access to rubble

    Chroma - Elemental ward cannot cycle...and is locked to energy color after being subsumed on a frame

    Ember - As there is no immolation meter, fireblast is locked to base armor strip

    Equinox - No dual forms...so power locked to energy colors

    Gara - Spectrorage loses synergy with splinter storm

    Gauss - Thermal sunder is largely interlinked with the battery mechanic...so yeah...

    (This requires three more rows of frames...so I'm done.  If the point isn't clear...then maybe it never will be.)

     

     

    What is the option that remains?  I ask this because there has to be a win condition here.  There has to be a demand which can be satisfied, because if there is not this is not feedback.  It's nihilism.  If you've got a solution offer it.  If you want to tell us that there is none...then why engage?  

     

    Let me ask a simpler question.  What synergy do you believe would be both inconsequential enough to have per the former (but quoted first) statement to be acceptable, which does not violate your opposition to synergy from the later (but recent) quotation?  Is there anything inside this magical zone?  If there is, share.  If not, then stop and consider.  This should have been a basic thought process, because if you walk into a discussion without win conditions you'll never make progress.  Despite this...I see nothing in multiple pages.  I also see contradiction is multiple pre-existing systems.  Square the circle...because Yareli having lost synergies like the much more popular Gauss is...not something that looks to be a problem.

    • Like 5
  11. 46 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

    What can I say except geez dude, you're coming back at me with more text than I put in every single time, upping the ante, and you say I'm the one who has to contort things with a ridiculously long response?? Declaring that you're chuckling at people, saying that you find people's responses funny, saying someone can't synthesize information, that's condescension, not me projecting condescension. If you can't see that, I don't think I can help you, and don't think further discussion with you is worth the aggravation and irritation.
    Saying you said some things that were in isolation correct, but that seemed to clash with your other declared opinions, is not me insisting that you were wrong even though you were right. It's that you were right about some things, but that I didn't think they supported the conclusion you were drawing from them. But sure, make it me vs you, rather than us refining our ideas and coming to an understanding.

    Aquablade isn't the worst Helminth ability, but it certainly isn't the best or one that particularly scales well beyond starchart. It could use good baseline scaling that isn't dependent on Ability synergies that would only be available on Yareli. And Yareli's other abilities would be better served by having them individually being good, not good exclusively due to synergies, so that it's viable to Infuse over any of the abilities, dependent on the build you are crafting for her.
    Don't spin Zephyr back around at me, MULTIPLE times now, I've stated that I find Zephyr is genuinely interesting to use the Helminth system on because there's no longer any explicitly dependent synergies (that I'm aware of, anyways). I like a good ranged Airburst build, ironically it'd theoretically even be good on Yareli with its augment, paired with Yareli's passive. Zephyr's original or previous states have nothing to do with Yareli except as an example of what they shouldn't do, which is to make a bunch of forced, ability-dependent synergies that make the abilities marginally more useful, at the expense of requiring multiple abilities to be cast. Same reason DE removed Spore-turret Molt.
    If that's what you meant, you should really lose the "chuckles" attitude, it won't make people more likely to read your responses with a level head, when you could just clarify. Without the attitude.

    Wow, way to threaten people with taking things out of context, and claim my argument is the one that's inconsistent, without actually clarifying the bit I pointed out didn't make sense with your argument. You seem to be arguing in bad faith, so yeah, not gonna respond to any further messages from you.

    Condescension again. Nice.

    And amazingly, after that condescension, you're wrong again.
    An ability lacking it's synergy-giving companions (such as Breach Surge without the tactical benefit of being able to teleport to the Reservoirs you can't cast) is weaker/less-worth-casting than it is on the original Warframe (ditto if the synergy-giver has been removed on the original Warframe in exchange for a Helminth Infusion). This would be acceptable if it turned a god-tier ability into a still-really-useful-and-competitive ability (whether the Subsume offering, or a Warframe's other ability when the synergy-provider is overwritten with an Infusion), but it's not acceptable if it's turned into lame barely-Starchart-fodder abilities because of the missing synergies. You're right, Aquablade isn't currently synergy-dependent, or synergy-benefited at all really. But adding synergy-dependent buffs wouldn't make it more worth using on other Warframes, and would only hurt Yareli if it made an ability "off-limites" to Infuse over because it became a synergy-capstone ability (like how Nezha's Chakram and Divine Spears is an amazing pairing, making either feel like silly options to replace). They (clearly, at this rate,) won't make Yareli OP with any of their adjustments to her, so making her buffs be rooted in synergies will just enforce a synergy-ability-combo-dependent playstyle on her. And if they make the wrong ability the capstone ability, without fixing people's problems with it, people will be upset because even with Helminth, they wouldn't be able to fix her. Which is why - 

    I'm pushing for DE to buff/update her abilities to perform better individually, first and foremost. I've been consistent about that. I want them to individually scale well, and be good at what they're supposed to be good at. Synergy comes second to me, and it should be with things that can be offered by other abilities, mods, weapons, etc, which I believe we were all in agreement on, as opposed to things being DEPENDENT on each other, rather than merely indirectly augmented. ESPECIALLY because of things like your examples of early Zephyr, or Grendel, or my example of pre-Larva-update Nidus.

    I want consistently good Abilities, not synergy-dependent, inconsistently-performing Abilities. I'm okay with a little bit of synergistic flair and convenience, like Nezha's teleport-explosion with Firewalker and his Chakram, doing a spot of damage in an AoE and making a fire-ring that Nezha could've just walked himself. I love it, but I find the Divine Spears almost feels too much, makes it feel like it's a waste to not use if you have the energy for both, as it multiplies the effectiveness and all but guarantees the energy refund. Kinda wish Divine Spears or Chakram were independently more capable of dealing out more damage. I don't wanna see that same kind of almost-forced synergy (FOMO on efficiency/potency?) on Yareli.

    I've made my stance clear for DE, I want baseline effectiveness on her abilities first. A little bit of Synergy is find, and would make some fun combos. But ideally it's mostly baseline functionality buffs (NOT just number boosts), and if they add any synergy, I'd want something like that recommendation for speed-related rate-of-tics for Aquablades, so that other speedy builds can benefit from it as well.

    But yeah, either we're just so thoroughly mismatching or misunderstanding each other, or tbh it kinda sounds like you're arguing in bad faith or intentionally twisting my words and refusing to simply have a respectful dialogue while pinning the blame on me, so cya either way.

     

    So...again...wow.  

     

    This is a discussion thread about Yareli.  You've come here, and are now demonstrating that your belief is that everybody who questions you is either condescending, patronizing, or otherwise bending the laws of physics to "write an answer longer than you wrote back" despite demonstrably being able to look at them and see this is...not true.

     

     

    Let me short change this.  Your initial quotation of two people with the same argument, stating one is bad and one is good, needed to end there.  There was an invitation to either find some introspection, and understand that your point was wrong, or to double down.  What happened instead was contorting reality to say that you'd always meant for Yareli to have synergistic powers...because reasons.

     

     

    I...all of these pauses are to allow you to understand that I'm choosing these statements carefully since you seem to be incapable of separating your point from your hate of me.  To that end, maybe this is a situation where you can stop the train for just a moment, and refocus on the thing at hand.  That would be Yareli.  It would be those who state flatly that the synergies potential with her moveset will not damage the game.  It's then the response back that...you know I cannot even begin to determine a single logical thread to your entire argument.  I can see the emotional need for me to be wrong, the emotional response that you believe someone stating inconsistencies in your point is somehow personal criticism, and I can even see the emotional response that trying to take the high road is simply condescension from someone who "knows better."  That said, I've literally never done any of that...and you continue to accuse me of it.

     

     

    Let me truly be condescending to close this out.  Then you're welcome to whatever petty interpretation is required to make me the bad guy (condescension one, out of frustration that you simply need me to be evil).  Your stated point is idiotic (condescension point two, frustration with inability to maintain a point and the desire to rewrite history to make this accurate).  At no point in time are DE obliged to nerf abilities already in the game, to make the synergistic abilities work in a balanced manner.  Your statement at the jump is both stripped of relevance by later being revised to this self same logic (by you), and within the same response quoting two people with the same retort but finding two different responses (condescension point three, an inability to understand two versions of the same idea packaged slightly differently as the same).

    To explain my frustration, let me explain to you why people look at responses like this, and call people stupid (condescension four, implication of stupidity by proxy to an argument).  In WoW it was unthinkable for a debuff to happen when people did a bunch of grinding.  This debuff effectively was basically a 25% decrease from baseline xp earnings...meaning people would "only be earning 75%.  How did Blizzard get around this?  Well, a 33% buff to xp earnings for being well rested.  That sounds odd...but let me explain that the initial baseline was decreased by 25%.  This means that you have the same thing happening (a maximum xp earning of 75% of the previous rate), but by calling it a 33% buff rather than a 25% debuff people viewed it positively.  The problem, the endgame was the same.  WoW penalized heavy grinders.

    If it isn't clear (not condescension, by virtue of multiple instances of selective interpretation leading to a requirement to lay out points with no room for interpretation), you started our discourse out with this exact fallacy.  I'd continue to explain, but the endgame is your inconsistency in argument and inability to articulate a clear idea damages people who are asking for Yareli to be buffed in a non-trivial numbers way.  Despite this, you continue.

     

     

    Now, I await your frustration.  I await your bending of my good will, into something akin to hate speech.  I don't even need to have an opposing point, but I still need to be wrong that Yareli can have synergies...because.  I mean, it's not like the whole ask here was simply for you to sit down, write a cogent response, and have a consistent point.  I mean, I could have asked for that multiple times...and had this simple ask swatted away.  The root of this entire discussion was about asking for consistency so DE couldn't selectively interpret feedback with no internal consistency to mean anything.

     

     

    (Fact check: 754 words (barring this check).  Response to retort of: 1011.  Reality seems to be easy to verify.  It's also fun that I should be threatening...despite never making a threat...if you disagree please use the tool at the top, and report me for threats.  Those violate ToS.  Noting that you'd have to cite one...)

     

    -Ooh, just a few more words.  Bump the counter to 808.  Stop changing the goals and contorting things.  This is not a discussion about aquablades.  It was a discussion about synergies...which you decided to change.  It's obviously condescending of me to keep you on topic though...because internal honesty is unfair to ask for.

    • Like 3
  12. 1 hour ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

    Nobody else in this thread needs to suffer from this clarification.

      Hide contents

      

    Hey, maybe don't insult people? And maybe don't display an inability to synthesize information yourself? I just said in the thread you quoted me back from:

    You can't claim that a Warframe's Abilities will be better and scale better when paired together, and that the effectiveness of the ability won't go down if you traded one of the abilities out for a Helminth Infusion. Or that the Subsumed ability will be weaker due to the lack of the synergy.

    I hear what you're saying, how if you make them synergistic based on what another Ability provides, then you can use weapons, companions, mods/arcanes or other Infusable Abilities, that can provide these abilities the same bonuses (like Ash's Bladestorm benefiting from ANY invisibility, not just his Smokebomb's Invisibility). I'd just prefer innate scaling on the individual Abilities, without them being explicitly dependent on each other, so that Helminth Infusions don't feel like you're utterly crippling Yareli's already-sad kit. I hate Helminth being an excuse to "fix it yourself if you hate this Ability so much" solution for DE to avoid balancing Abilities, I love the opportunity to craft unique playstyles on Warframes though.

    And like. I have also said that I wouldn't mind a bit of both? Meet halfway? You don't have to sound so arrogant and claim I'm missing a ton of stuff, when you seemed to miss what I was saying :V

    Can ya stop being condescending :V

    .... Yeah? What's your point? I was playing devil's advocate to briefly show what their apparent thought process was. DE clearly wanted to avoid overdoing it with Yareli, and made sure they actively avoided giving her ludicrous scaling mechanics. They went the opposite direction as Saryn (genocide queen with theoretically near-infinite Spore scaling). Now they realized the opposite direction is too far, since they're considering buffing her again. I get this. Why are you framing this as an argument?

    WOW the condescension contintinues, and MAN did you just tunnel-vision like heck on that one example. You hated her original kit. However:

    I was talking about CURRENT Zephyr :V  you didn't have to go on and on about her original kit, my subtext implied that I wasn't the same fan of her previous iterations. And how is it hard to replace non-synergizing Abilities? Did you mean to say it "isn't difficult", since you're saying you find yourself effortlessly Infusing over Airburst/Ballistic-Battery? If not, something sounds backwards. You talk about getting more synergy from another Helminth ability but that... Just proves my point? I'm not saying explicit Ability-interdependent synergies are bad, they just make it harder to justify customizations to the Warframe via Helminth, as you're losing out on the synergies when you Infuse over one, or when you Subsume it and Infuse it elsewhere. It nerfs the kit or the Subsumed ability.

    Again, why are we arguing? It sounds like we're more or less on the same page already, but that you misunderstood me or fabricated arguments where there shouldn't have been any. I've pointed out that Merulina's inability to use Melee, Primary, Infused Abilities, and standard Warframe Mobility are all massive downsides to using Merulina, and so it's extra obnoxious that her DR is arbitrarily capped below other comparable DRs. Her SeaSnares being capped at 15 instances hanging out on the map (aside from already-Snared enemies) and still-will-be-kinda-low range on her Riptide and still-really-low-range Aquablades don't CC enemies enough unless you make an infinite supply of energy via pads or Zenurik or Arcane Energize or Energy Generator or Sharpshooter etc, so the DR of Merulina is feeling kinda mandatory to utilize. After all, it's DR for as long as Merulina lasts, which is longer than Yareli will last even with the DR boost.

    You're right, and as myself and others have commented, Yareli's survival rate/ease feels really poor if you don't replace Merulina with another DR solution, and replacing anything but Merulina sucks since you can't cast them from Merulina (again, why are we arguing???)

    You're right, if they don't fix Yareli so that Infusions aren't universally a "poisoned apple" on her, she should have straight-up buffs and synergies, which again, I've said I'd agree withWhy are we arguing?? Oh yeah, you implied I suck at data synthesis and made arguments where there was mostly already agreement :V I just want her individual abilities to scale better on their own, without being dependent on other abilities, which you already implied you agree with via your old-Zephyr arguments. She can additionally have some slightly better internal synergies, ideally not exclusively ability-dependent, but rather ability-enabling, such as faster movement making faster Aquablades, which would make it fun on any other fast-Frames, or by replacing Yareli's Merulina with something like Infested Mobility, or even Saryn's Molt, etc.

    You're the one picking arguments :V don't assume I haven't built Grendel and gotten immediately annoyed at how dependent his other abilities are on his 1. I was happy AF when Nidus got other stack-building options with his Larva buffs and augment.

     

    This was a really long way of saying "I don't know why the heck you're trying to turn tons of dialogue into explicit arguments when they're mostly just exploring what's happening and what probably should happen", basically :V

    We can have a productive conversation exploring the specific nuances of the game, and the nuances of each other's views, without being condescending or argumentative. If you loved synergy, and I value abilities being useful by their own merit, we should politely agree to disagree. If we're in agreement on things in general, just clarify anywhere that you disagree, without being rude. If I misunderstood or missed something entirely, you can just re-clarify what was missed, you don't have to take personal offense and then cause offense in turn. Being rude will only get people's hackles up, and if we want to get DE to make any changes to the game, we need to have a more unified voice, not a fractured one. Being combative doesn't help anyone. Gets threads locked, or 90% of a useful discussion removed because of the 10% that was rude.

    I stand by what I said. If DE makes her substantial mechanical buffs (which she NEEDS far more than mere number-tweaks) more synergy-based, then it ruins her kit as soon as one of the synergy-providing Abilities is Helminth-Infused over, and the same goes for Aquablades when Infused on another Warframe that lacks Yareli's other Abilities to give it synergy. Numerical buffs are appreciated, as would synergy-additions (ideally not explicitly Ability-dependent, but rather just opportunities/traits that her other Abilities can provide, as other sources could), but I personally fundamentally want Yareli's Abilities to perform and scale better individually more than anything.

     

    Funny that after all of this, the conclusion is that you find it condescending that I should respond back to you, and "fight" about finishing ideas and tangents that would otherwise spiral out.  So we are clear, that is the point of finishing ideas...and you believing that this is condescending is projection.  If you deserved no respect, and your ideas had no merit, then the response would have been a terse no.  Not a response with nuance...and definitely not one where I'm still chuckling because the long response was that I was correct...but you cannot simply state that.  I have to be a flavor of wrong...no matter how much contortion is required.

     

    Rounding out the rest of this, you started by stating that synergies weren't a possibility because they'd lead to base powers being weakened.  Your current response is that they're needed...but the Helminth removing these would damage the synergies by potentially removing them.  This is balanced against aquablade being her subsumed ability somehow not synergizing with other frames...all while remembering that airburst is what Zephyr offered...because you decided to open that can of worms.

     

    So we are clear, none of this violates TOS...and your accusations that I'm "combative" and not bringing useful discussion is interesting.  The 90-10% thing is funny...because I've yet to state anything but amusement at double standards, and reinforce my feedback that synergistic powers need no debuff.  It's almost like I have an opposing opinion...that you both disagree with and agree with.  Forcing a resolution to that is entirely within reason...unless of course we do agree and your initial retort should be amended.  I will let you in on a secret though.  Come in real close.

    I take no umbrage with you.  I take no umbrage with those that think Yareli is fine.  The umbrage to be taken here is that your inability to make a cogent argument is damaging the argument you are making.  Why would I care about that?  Well, if you can't make a clear argument then DE will do whatever they wish, and have justification from the player base to do it?  Universal medallions not universal, yep.  DE justified that with a single tweet.  So...let's not even consider what could be justified here with a dichotomy of stated goals and methodology.  If I was feeling froggy I could use your response to reasonably state that players believe that Yareli's kit is just fine.  I could also select sections of this, and state that players believe that aquablades needs nerfs, due to potentially unbalanced synergies.  Worst of all, all of these would take no effort.  It's that kind of failure in clarity that allows DE to justify anything by "player feedback" that is concerning.

    Let me put this clearly one last time.  If you believe that synergies cannot exist without nerfs, you are wrong.  If you believe that synergies lost because a warframe getting a subsumed ability doesn't have the other abilities which support the synergy you are wrong.  If your aspire to have it both ways...I cannot see a middle ground but am open to being proven wrong.  What is intolerable is trying to take all stances at once, and allowing DE to produce another Grendel.  Before the Grendel mains get angry, let me explain.  The feedback to DE was mixed.  The meatball was cool...but the frame was utterly busted because the energy drain was too high.  By the time you ate enough enemies to make the meatball damaging you'd dissipate your energy bar seconds into a good run.  The feedback they took was to slightly decrease the energy cost...while keeping the scaling factor directly tied to enemies eaten.  Combine that with a frame where all abilities are tied to the first...and you've got issues because the synergy you balanced for is unusable.  Yareli is in a similar place.  If we cannot articulate that, and instead simply suggest that she both needs more and we cannot have a fundamental shift, then what exactly can be done?  Nothing.  DE can claim to follow community feedback, tweak numbers, and outdate the outrage.  That's what unclear, inconsistent, or otherwise contradictory feedback offers.  Perhaps now you understand why someone would press for consistency...or not. 

     

     

     

    ---this isn't a response to the quotation, but is an extension of the response to this thread as a whole---

    Whatever.  It doesn't even matter anymore.  DE doesn't do anything but quell these threads of things they consider off topic.  The feedback is never taken...but because they exist it's fine to say they are listening to players.  Well DE, let me end this with my feedback.  Xaku was underdone, and needed another month in the oven.  Yareli is rawer than Xaku.  Maybe the next frame will be better...but it's nearly 2/3rds of the way through 2021.  Sevagoth was a push-back from 2020.  Yareli is new.  That's 2 frames this year.  3 frames last year...and what looks to be 3 this year.  Maybe with this extra month per frame release we can get some polish?  After almost a decade it seems like every subsequent release is less balanced.  Yareli is in the golden zone of being too weak, with underwhelming powers, and having a passive that is great but not possible to consistently realize.  That's a lot of fail.

    • Like 4
  13. 5 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

    ...

    Just... Yes? It stands to reason that they clearly don't want Yareli being a brand new, way-too-OP Warframe, going by how slow and weak the adjustments to her are going. But lets say they buff her stuff all the way up to being an average Warframe, not the best at many things, but really okay or good at several things. If they did that exclusively by making their abilities interdependent on each other to achieve that okay-ness, then replacing any of her abilities (or putting her Aquablades on someone else) would be really rough, as it'd reduce the viability that was given by her Synergy.

    Synergy-heavy Warframes are really fun. I adore Nezha, whose 1, 2, and 4 are all really synergistic, or Wukong's 1 benefiting from 2, 3, and 4. So much fun, that they can be difficult to justify swapping out certain abilities sometimes. It's nice, by comparison, to see Zephyr's abilities no longer requiring they be used in tandem (budging Tornadoes with 1, using 2 to increase their size, etc), as I can just replace whichever ability I feel like, without feeling like I've ruined her entire kit. I'm just pointing out, while some synergy, which you'll note that I provided suggestions for, would make her more engaging to play with, but failing to fix her ability's fundamental weaknesses would be rough.

    You get it!

    Her entire kit theoretically is supposed to revolve around movement via her Merulina, rushing around, bubbling enemies with SeaSnares, slashing them with Aquablades as you rip past them, and gathering them all up with Riptide. But Aquablades depends on you being a very specific range near (and away! cuz dead-zone center of the ring of spinning blades!) to enemies and doesn't do any added damage/range (that I've noticed) by being on Merulina, by having them recently Riptided or currently SeaSnared, and there's no interaction with SeaSnares or Riptide, or Riptide and Aquablades.

    There are ways to make her abilities individually better (per-level scaling on Aquablades and SeaSnare's damage, status chance for the cold damage on SeaSnares, giving Merulina K-Drive modding capability, and the simple number-tweaks they're giving Riptide, though it could also use scaling damage such as level-based damage), but there are also synergy options for buffs (explicit bonus damage to enemies currently or recently affected by another ability, increasing any combination of range/strength/efficiency/duration of abilities while on Merulina, making the first Aquablade hit on a SeaSnared foe send an Aquablade flying to the nearest SeaSnared/un-SeaSnared/or-any enemy, making Riptide pull in all SeaSnared enemies, or all up to a capped maximum distance, or of a multiplied distance from it's modded duration such as double or quadruple the normal range, making Riptide refresh the duration of SeaSnares, make any SeaSnares that hit existing SeaSnares "explode" in a radius around the impacted target, dealing damage to them, and SeaSnaring enemies in the blast radius, have Aquablades divert and travel to Riptide when cast, hitting enemies en route and also within the Riptide).
    I'd prefer if DE did a bit of both, rather than relying on exclusively one or the other. Obviously not ALL of these synergies or direct buffs would need to be applied for her to start feeling competitive, but a cherrypicked few would feel great on her.

     

    I....find it immensely amusing that you can hear the same argument, quote both of them, and determine that one is right and the other is wrong.

     

    So we are clear, I stated the powers can stand on their own and that good synergies do not have the base powers being nerfed into irrelevance to balance out the synergy.  Sunderthefirmament instead categorized this as dependent powers versus synergistic.  It's taking the term synergy, and separating out those items which are nerfed to promote the synergy with those whose synergistic cap are allowed to be much higher.

     

    Despite the same argument...I'm wrong and right.  You do see how this might be taken as an inability to synthesize basic information, right?  I mean, two people independently told you the same thing.  That is, synergies do not have to result in nerfs.

     

     

     

    Now, allow me to finish the thought process for you.  You seem to not like how DE has dealt with Yareli.  Fine.  You justify this as them "not making her OP."  I think you're jumping the gun here...but let's put that aside and give you the benefit of doubt.  What really matters right now is that it has been a month and change since release.  At launch the only people who mattered (the influencers who act as DE's free marketing arm) stated that this frame was way underpowered.  Before most people could earn her through the long wait, DE released a basic increase to stats.  At that point, DE stated that Yareli was fine and no more changes were coming in the near future.

    Flash forward less than a single quarter.  Yareli is getting huge stat boosts.  Not huge in the sense of being 200%...but huge in that a fully upgraded warframe will basically have 300% of current stats...which shows that at default they were truly garbage.  To top this, it isn't one underwhelming power.  It's multiple.  That screams that DE have now acknowledge that the feedback was accurate, and that usage statistics are low.

    Of course, you then used Zephyr.  You really shouldn't have.  Most other frames I can agree to disagree.  Zephyr is another story.  She initially had so very many issues.  Tailwind and Divebomb were two abilities, but between cramped levels and needing to use tailwind to use divebomb things were useless.  I played her for years without ever using a dive bomb.  You then look at the state of her release tornado.  Garbage range, and enemies inside it were invincible.  Ouch.  It took until her prime to get any love, and that was to collapse her divebomb into tailwind (making the singular ability now actually one), and install an ability that was required to buff her tornados to a substantial power.  Hmmm....this would be defined as synergies done wrong, because instead of each ability being good they were required to be cast in succession.  As the other poster called it, dependent rather than synergistic.  Now you've got a stable Zephyr.  Air burst lost all synergies with tornado...so literally nothing from Zephyr's kit has synergy.  Why then do I not have issues?  

    Well, let me answer with the simplest response.  Airburst is the first ability that I remove.  Now Zephyr can use the Helminth to get an ability that does have synergy.  You want her to be crowd control, slap down a dispensary.  Tornado sucks enemies up, turbulence blocks projectiles, and dispensary sustains.  You want damage?  Slap on gloom and you can suck up all the enemies into a single tornado and in one shot transfer enough damage through the tornado to liquify them.  

     

    Do I then endorse the Helminth?  Well, no.  Airburst with Zephyr sucks.  Mesa's 1 sucks.  These abilities are largely non-synergistic with their host frame, so replacing them is difficult.  On the other hand, you have Sevagoth.  Each ability is linked to different parts of him.  At best you can give up reap...but when you do there's a penalty for how fast you fill his death well meter.  Likewise, Yareli could synergize...but you then discover that subsumed abilities aren't capable of being cast while on Merulina.  Oh joy...Yareli has a requirement to use Merulina, because she's fragile.  She also can't use any subsumed abilities on Merulina...because.  This means amongst frames Yareli is basically unique in that none of her abilities should be subsumed off of her...because the loss of any ability basically forces her to have one less while riding her only chance at survival on a k-drive....ouch.  For Yareli the Helminth system is not a trade-off analysis, but a poisoned apple.  

    If Yareli can't reasonably subsume...and her powers are functionally locked to Merulina...then what is Yareli before unlocking Merulina?  Is it unreasonable to ask for her powers to internally synergize...given no other frames can use them and Yareli can't even use the powers for other frames?  Are these questions being asked rhetorically, because after Xaku, Protea, Grendel, and now Yareli there's substantive questions to be asked about DE's ability to release any new content that isn't garbage?  Time's up.  The answer is yes.  If DE doesn't let Yareli work with anything else, then she should have synergistic and strong abilities, to compensate for all of her shortcomings.  You're welcome to argue...but while you do I suggest you try building a Grendel, and subsuming his ability to consume enemies off.  That's basically what every ability is for Yareli...and as such is pretty goofy to ever consider touching with the Helminth...or for that matter playing with her in-game.

    • Like 2
  14. 12 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

    Reminder to everyone though, Synergies are practically equivalent to asking for a Warframe's base abilities to be less effective, forcing encouraging players to use all abilities more proactively in order to gain the maximum effectiveness. It's also just as fine for a Warframe's individual abilities to be individually potent and fun to use without Synergies, and actually makes them more compelling candidates for Infusing other Warframe abilities, since you aren't ruining a Synergy, and also makes their Subsumed ability a not-innately-neutered-by-the-absent-synergy ability.

     

    Just...no.

     

    In your theoretical example the synergy has been balanced for, and the components have been nerfed so that they are only viable when together.  This is bad design, but it's not how synergies should work.  If you'd like a dead simple example, let's talk patty-cake with a pair of Equinoxes.  The nuke ability Equinox has is charged, so its strength is balanced against the difficulty in charging it up.  Great.  Players then determined that if you have two running, you can basically have a near constant nuke.  One feeds the other's charge.  This was presumably not intended, but emergent gameplay in response to ESO.

     

    Now, why is Equinox not on the chopping block, and why do people still believe her nuke is good?  Well, that's because the synergy of the ability is difficult to maintain and requires effort.  The effort is rewarded, and despite allowing for a rolling nuke this synergy is still alive and well in the game.

     

     

    What you are implying is that DE will be unable to install some kind of mechanical limiter to fix a power synergy...which is kind of nuts.  Sevagoth gets auto self-revive...but it comes at the cost of having to go into his other form and kill some enemies.  Grendel can self buff to the moon, but has a huge energy drain and must eat enemies.  Let's imagine a situation where Yareli doesn't suck.  Increase the range, and add slash to her aqua cutter.  To balance this out, make the velocity of the blades dependent upon her speed.  This gives additional power, but synergizes with Merulina because zipping around the level would effectively make them an impenetrable wall.  The trade-off for the synergy is having to be constantly moving, circle strafing, and demonstrating skill to maintain that damage wall.  It wouldn't be a nerf to the current power, because even now the blades aren't effective after a certain number of hits...so staying in one place is not viable.

    What about her snares?  Well, let's imagine that the snares would seek out any instance of her 4 within a set distance.  They would then be sucked in at great velocity to the casting instance.  This leaves the snares still functional as CC, and doesn't make her 4 too powerful.  It simply means that you get a bit more scaling damage, under the auspices of having to herd enemies.  That's a synergy of powers, that by definition requires no nerf to either.

     

    But...instead we get basic stat buffs to abilities.  More power, more range, more mobility.  That's fine I guess, but it's not tackling the core issue and repeating the issues that DE is famous for.  Namely, release overwhelmingly underpowered.  Buff the thing slightly, long after the early adopters have determined it to be useless.  Outdate the outrage of more fodder with only minor changes...and wait for the community to forget.  Accelerate this by promising something new...and when veterans start to grouse about things simply release new cosmetics.  

    Why even talk about this on a thread for Yareli changes?  Well, about a month ago things were fine with Yareli.  Since then...no new content.  OK.  About a month later DE launches workshops on corrupted holokeys and Yareli....with no substantive content updates.  Now changes are possible and fine...and nobody is going to question what changed with literally no changes to the game.  I know I am...and I'm simply seeing this as data rolling in.  Yareli and the Tenet melee weapons are painfully underused, along with Railjack.  Scramble!  We have to make this content viable...who cares about what we said earlier?

    • Like 5
  15. On 2021-08-16 at 10:14 AM, _COY_ said:

    I know its unpopular, but I have to say it: The drop rates are OK
    Saturn skirmish missions can be rushed in 2-3minutes.
    For a mission that long, the 4 holos at the end are OK, too.
    I got 12-20 holos per hour this way.
    There is much heavier grind in the game, compared to that.

    All you need to do is optimize the mission and split the tasks between the players.
    1 pilot only
    2 front artillery only
    3+4 slingshot to the objective and do the mission

    The only problem here, is to find 3 others who know what to do.

    -c0y
     

     

    So...I've read through this about a dozen times...and my response after waiting this long is that you must also like the drop for Harrow's Systems, right?  I mean, the drop rate there is only 11.28%,  but you've only got to get a single drop.  Given that this is about 1/3 as likely as a holokey drop, but of course you need only a single drop rather than 8 or more drops, the Harrow's systems blue print should be a breeze.

     

    I say this with Bile in my mouth, and you'll hopefully understand why.

     

    This example highlights that your "2-3 minute" mission grind is a joke.  I say that because back when tether could wipe anything and we had 5 forward artillery charges it was possible to wipe one of these missions in about five minutes...but now you're saying that you can do all of the fighters, all of the crewships, and complete the internal objective while collecting al of the required void traces within 3 minutes.  I call shenanigans.

    I also view this as terrifyingly bad math.  12 holokeys an hour means that for 60 minutes you get 3 drops.  If that is to be believed, you're looking at a 1:3 drop rate, meaning 9 missions completed.  9*3=27....so either you're looking at an average of 6+ minutes per run or the 37.5% drop rate is inaccurate.

     

    Of course, this is just basic math to check your anecdotal statements that is failing...but the real issue is your core premise.  If the drop rates were fine you'd not have to wait for a specific type of mission on a specific planet to get what you're looking for.  If the rewards were decent it'd be trivial to recommend that people go out and engage with railjack to earn keys without the huge caveat of what mission types suck the chrome out of stainless steel.

     

     

    Of course...you could compare this to other grinds.  Yeah.  My go-to is the Braton Vandal being a 2.01% drop chance from ESO rotation C.  That sucks.  That anecdotally took me two months to get...and the weapon is mastery rank fodder for anyone capable of getting to rotation C by themselves....as rando groups almost never go that deep.

    I could also cite the drop rate on things like Bite.  Yeah....a 0.0066% chance drop from feral kubrows and drahk.  That means that for every million of these enemies you slaughter on average you'll get 66 whole mods.  I have been playing for years, and in all that time and thousands upon thousands of enemies slaughtered (of this type) I've seen 2.  Yeah.

     

    Of course, this is an exercise in rewarding DE with praise for not being absolute jerks.  By that logic, everything in this game shy of literal years of grind is something to be lauded...and that's silly.  

    If you've got the time to waste grinding these, are willing to determine the most efficient method of earning, and are willing to force yourself through this content it's tolerable.  For most people, as defined by the requirement for this change, this rewards structure is inadequate and will not be engaged with.  As DE wants us to play all of their content, this is a lose-lose they need to rectify.  Telling them otherwise may be fine for you, but not everybody can plow 4+ hours into this game to maybe get enough items to get one weapon, with RNG stats, that then requires 5 forma, and has to be ground to peak level multiple times just to apply those forma, with the potential at being either not useful for a player's style, or otherwise not enticing.  Joy.

     

     

     

    I preface these statements with "of course" because the fundamental premise is flawed.  Garbage in, garbage out.  It's meant to highlight why your statement is so frustrating, as you've given DE a free pass to give us a bad grind because previously they've given us a miserable insult.  Why is it that people act like this happening at a service industry job is worth stiffing someone on a tip, that they're getting a base wage reduction on "because of the tips," but when it's their video games it's fine?  Ahhh....that good old "at least this isn't a loot box" response.  Sigh.

    • Like 12
  16. 12 hours ago, tomwork27 said:

    its been like 2 weeks why did they post this so early if they were going to wait so long? they could at least do it on pc and then run a script for the consoles later

     

    9 hours ago, DefectiveMagus said:

    Same thoughts there. Considering how small of a change this is, i was expecting it to be up by now. If it was something more drastic then i would be okay with waiting longer, cause for now im just waiting on the change to come so i can play more void storms and sisters, as im avoiding doing those for now so i dont get burned out.

    And also i feel the reason why the holokeys dont drop in every mission like steel essence is because there are a lot more things to buy with steel essence, and some of them are expendable things. While with holokeys you just need to get the 4 weapons (a few of them maybe a couple of times) and thats it as it curently stands. And the holokeys seam like a good future alternative to getting tenet weapons, so if they make them easier to obtain now, they wont be able to expand on them later cause by that point people will already have stockpiles of them.

     

    So....I ask this knowing the answer, but neither of you read the last hotfix notes did you?

     

    I ask because they specifically called out that they had found some bugs in getting them to drop from the Sisters.  Thus, their "coming soon" became the usual "primed soon" response.

     

     

    That said, in the last several months DE has gone over and above to not reward people for the grind they already did.  Exactly how do you think that they would go back through the defeated/converted sisters list and award items, but only for an indeterminate period of time?  It'd be easier to just give everyone one per defeat...and they said that they wouldn't do that.  

     

    Regarding the statements about the costing....for real?  The cosmetics are 25 per.  The ephemeras vary.  The only high cost item in the bunch is the 150 unit umbral forma...that previously DE assumed you'd be getting with 3 units per daily mission or 2 per acolyte.  They added on stuff that costs 15, and now it's "too much stuff."

    I don't get it.  40*4 is 160.  At most they drop in units of 5 (going to 10), but the average per run is 5*0.375 or 1.875 key per run.  40/1.875= 21.33 or 22 runs. 

    22*4 = 88 runs.  This means an average of 88 runs to just get the required keys to get one of each weapon...disregarding the element and strength RNG.

    88*5= 440 steel essence.  For that amount you're just shy of 3 umbral forma.  If that doesn't move you, 29 arcane weapon slot unlockers.  

     

    I could continue on...but I will stop with the point that "but you only get 5 missions per day" argument invalidation.  People say you can grind a void storm in just a few minutes "with a good team."  Of course, grinding a survival, defense, volatile, or Orphix run is impossible.  As such, both Steel Essence and Holokeys are not possible to power grind infinitely.  I wanted to answer this....because I already see this facile retort.  No, I don't believe that one grind is better than another...but forcing people to engage with railjack is less fun than letting me choose to just play the core game as I want.

    • Like 3
  17. So...you can bank these.

     

    I did my 10...and neither of the remaining two options mattered to me.  I added them...and it did nothing.  The next week brought a grand total of nothing.  I put nothing in.  The following week I got 200% duration and immunity to status effects.  Slapped that on Zephyr, and I got to run as one of the best cc options (tornado) and immunity to almost all annoyances (knockdown is a status).

     

    If nothing floats your boat, and no frames are to your liking, bank that thing.

     

    Regarding the discussion of being OP...  This is a power fantasy.  It's nice to be able to rebuild certain frames for giggles.  Nothing quite like dropping an efficiency and duration boost onto something like a Chroma... so you can build slightly more edgy without having huge compromises.  The only shame is it being one week in four...assuming a good rng roll.

    • Like 2
  18. 17 hours ago, quxier said:

    Nope. You know what's probability is? You have a box with 10 balls. 9 balls are blue and 1 ball is red. You put your hand (not seeing colors of the balls) and pick one. You have 10% chance to get red. You put the ball back. What's your chance of getting red ball? It's still 10%.

    Now, next problem is 40% of getting uncommon. Sure, it's 40% of getting one uncommon part... OR UNCOMMON FORMA (which I consider common stuffs). You get 20% chance to get uncommon part.

    Summing it up you get 30% to get uncommon or rare part.

    Sure, that's a change but it's so small that I haven't seen any change in 26 runs.

    Of course RJ is harder for some of us (I don't have good gear and, for example, Veil Storm took me ~1 hour) but I mean how certain you are to get a weapon. You need to farm relics, then Void traces. If I gave you 100 radiants to do solo can you tell me that you will get at least 1 uncommon and 1 rare stuff? No, you cannot.

    Now take Holos. It drops 1/3 of missions. If you do 21 you should get 42 Holos. That's 1 weapon guaranteed. Sure, it can takes more than 21 runs but you still get that weapon guaranteed. Of course if it takes much more missions per drop then I consider it as a bug.

     

    So....you seem to be selectively interpreting reality here.  I do not often agree with a lot of the people who are levelling questions here, but they have a point.

     

    Let's look at some basic examples, and then maybe you can understand.  Before this though, we can start with some basic statements of fact.

    1) 99.99% drop chance is not an assurance.  It by definition means that 1/10,000 instances does not have a drop.  If there is rounding, it could mean that 15/100,000 instances don't have a drop.

    2) Holokeys are a 37.5% chance drop on missions.  This is defined by DE's drop tables.  

    3) For all relics you have 3 common, 2 uncommon, and 1 rare drop item.

    4) Standard relics have a 25.33%-11%-2% drop ratio for each item.

    5) Radiant relics convert this to 16.67%-20%-10%.

     

     

    So, let's talk about things here.  Relic drops are defined to be 100% RNG.  That means that your probability of not getting a rare drop is 1-.9n where n represents the amount of radiant relics rolled.  This means, because xn approaches but never equals zero, you can mathematically run an infinite number of radiant relics and never get a rare reward.  This holds true for all outcomes, because each of them by definition creates a situation where the probability of getting any drop never reaches 100%, because the mathematical equation precludes this.

    So, answering your earlier statements there is no guaranteed outcome.  To say so is fundamentally misunderstanding the math.  It's probably you reading the wiki and not understanding the qualifier that "guaranteed" there means they decided to choose an arbitrarily high percentage, and call it guaranteed.

     

    Now, what about specific outcomes?  This may be stone stupid to state, but any outcome is simply a subset of the potential outcomes.  Expressing this for a radiant relic, 50% of people get a common on the first run, 40% get an uncommon, and 10% get a rare.  There is mathematically a person that gets a rare on each of 100 outcomes.  That person managed 0.1100 odds, or 1/(1*10100).  More realistically, with a pool of millions of users, somebody out there got that rare drop 6 times in a row.  This is an outcome assuming that DE's drop tables are right, and you have a sample size which arbitrarily can be defined to be capable of being large enough to represent a truly RNG selection.

     

     

    So...we've debunked the argument about void key drops, but what about void traces?  Well, that's not a true RNG system.  What it is, is a guaranteed base and an additional RNG quantity.  Basically, assume that the reward is 5+n, where n represents everything for 0 to 45.  The unluckiest person out there is guaranteed to have n equal zero every time, but because you start with a base of 5 guaranteed you get enough to make a relic radiant after just 20 runs.  The luckiest soul gets that same 100 after 2 runs.  This is what people are asking for with holokeys to some extent.

     

     

    Taking that cue, let's discuss holokeys.  The obvious statement is that no mission is guaranteed to drop them.  This is established above in the definition of rewards, and explaining how RNG rewards based on probability work.  So, what's the big deal?  37.5%, with a drop quantity of  5 currently and 10 eventually.  That means on average you get 0.375*5 = 1.875 holokey per run, and after 22 runs you on average earn a single tenet melee weapon, right?  

    Well, yes.  Assuming you are willing to grind a functionally limitless amount of missions you'll on average get 1.875 keys for each mission.  The problem then lies with the subset of outcomes, not the superset which you use as an average.  If I run the mission 10 times the likelihood of getting no keys is 0.62510 or 0.9%.  Yes, 9 in 1000 people will run the mission 10 times and literally never see a holokey.  If you run it the full 22 times, 3 in 100000 see no holokeys.  If your user base is millions, this represents somewhere in the range on 30-100 people who literally never see a holokey after 22 runs.

    Not that there's also the opposite thing going.  You've got a 37.5% chance of getting the drop, so 0.37510 have 50 holokeys, or 5 in 100000 have gotten 1.25 tenet weapons worth of holokeys.

     

     

    This is the problem with a 100% RNG reward, scaled to mission levels, that has no "pity factor."  It's why DE decided on a guaranteed single key drop from the sisters as a "guaranteed" item.  In this way you can't be angry, because there's always a way to get a key.  The issue of course is that the sisters require grinding out requiem mods, grinding out granum tokens, grinding out requiem relics for the mods, and then grinding out the sister to get a single key.  You of course need 40 of the things....which represents 120 requiem mod charges.  That's not 40 drops of requiem mods, because 4 expended requiem mods can be turned into a new one, but with RNG drops from the relics it represents literally hundreds of them ground out.  If you then quadruple this for multiple weapons, and further increase it to cover the fact that multiples of each weapon are needed to max the elemental bonus, it becomes a near infinite grind non-starter.

    So, DE is making the RNG slightly less terrible by significantly increasing the drop on one of four types of missions...but keeping the same low drop rates.  They are adding guaranteed drops...but it's behind an even more sheer grind wall.  All of this is predicated on "fixing" the system that people are already calling broken, but instead of understanding what is broken they've slightly increased rewards....that some may literally never see because of the bad drop rates.

    This is what I'd like to call an insulting fix, because it ignores the root of the problem and assumes we are idiots.  The problem is securing these drops, given the rate.  The solution proposed in not to offer different viable paths, but to give us slightly more if we can ever get the drops.  Seriously, WTF?

     

     

     

    So, let me guarantee you a solution.  Let me also base this upon existing solutions present in the game.  Each side objective drops a guaranteed number of holokeys.  They also have a range.  This is a 1-3 quantity per side objective.  This means that on Venus where there is one side objective you earn between 1-3 keys, if you engage with railjack and do more.  This peaks in the Veil, where you're guaranteed 4 keys for doing the objectives, but can earn up to 12.  

    Why is this a solution?  Well, side objectives are doing railjack, which is what DE wants.  Right now, the incentive is to bomb through a minimum of content and get that 37.5% roll before repeating as quickly as possible.  That's reinforcing to players that side objectives get ignored, and Railjack can languish.  This is trying to sell railjack, and giving us the worst it has to offer.  In short, stupid.

    Likewise, why 1-3?  This means a good Venus run can outstrip the guaranteed Neptune run, because 3>1+1.  Well, this is your RNG.  3>2, but 3<<6.  Likewise, 4 is your minimum in the Veil, which is less than the 6 potential for Neptune, but if you weight the outcomes as well (50%, 30%, 20%) the large outcomes will make people disregard the bad impressions of a run with low rewards.

    Finally, why secondary objectives?  Why do I want to force a minimum of 10 completed runs in the Veil to get a tenet weapon?  The goal here is to expose people to railjack, right?  The rewards then should be about engagement, and not RNG.  If you want to not engage with the content that's fine, just be warned that you'll be doing a lot more of it.  Likewise, if people discover stuff they like they should be rewarded for grinding it out.  You give players the option to engage, and highlight that engagement means rewards, they're likely to engage and discover something fun without even realize they're being dragged by the nose to a system that largely is still a content island.

     

    Why even propose the above?  Yeah, it's a hybrid RNG and guaranteed reward that is based upon engagement.  It's exactly what a competent company would want to stimulate engagement, but also make sure people don't burn out with bad RNG rolls.  Most assuredly it isn't going to be implemented.  

    Yeah, I agree.  DE just doesn't do this sort of thing anymore.  I'm speaking hypothetically in a feedback thread, and it'll get buried under a mountain of people screaming about other related but tangential things and taking offense.  Whatever.  I'm burned out.  This system should get a real overhaul....but I'm not holding my breath.  This level of grind has managed to burn out partners....so why do I expect DE to do anything?  I already know that they are planning on this underwhelming garbage, and this feedback thread will be ignored.

     

     

     

    Sigh.  I wish DE cared anymore.  I wish I could care.  I'm about 5 weeks from logging off for a while...and maybe coming back.  The five weeks is simple, 4 nightwave levels a week, 8 current levels, I'll max out in about 5....and there'll be nothing to earn and nothing new.  That'll be the time to punch out with 5 weapons not mastered (4 tenet and the Ambassador).  It's fun to think that after 31 mastery ranks it'll all end in apathy...and the attempt DE is making to fix this are minor number tweaks and getting everyone onto one platform so they can experience things together...hopefully including the bugs.

    I have to chuckle here....because console and PC players are often at odds because PC is the buggiest platform with the earliest content launches.  It will be surreal to see how consoles react when the day one launch breaks as much content as is added.  I say this in the feedback thread for holokey changes, thinking of the railjack 3.0 system as a whole.  Boy, is it a buggy mess, and PC was the tester for this.  Seeing someone on a Wii stuck loading and unable to close the processes without a hard reset is...somehow making it more amusing.  

    • Like 8
  19. 5 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

    Thanks for doing the math and showing us the averages.

    I have an idea, but I don't know if it is any good. Put all the Tenet Melee weapons into the normal spawned spawned sisters drop table, and instead use Corrupt Holokeys to incrementally increase the elemental buff percentage on any lich-sister weapon. I was thinking one Holokey to 1% buff increase, so if you got a lich-sis weapon at 20% you spend 40 Holokeys to buff it to 60%.

    Is that too crazy?

     

    Is it any easier?  Additionally, is it something DE is even open to?

     

    While my goal here is not to question a suggestion, it is to ask whether it's something that is even on the table.

     

    This is a deeply stacked multi-layered grind (get railjack, wait for void storm, grind at low rate, accumulate 40 keys, go to vendor with random element at random strength, wait another 4 days for reset, repeat grind to get fodder to level this up, waiting at least 4 days before you get another crack at it, now repeat for 3 more weapons).

    Does DE really have player experience in mind here, or is this an attempt to determine exactly how bad they can make a system with RNG grind at its core before players stop engaging?  I ask this because your idea has some merit, but it would not require any workshop changes.  DE could always just let us grind sisters, and valence transfer while ignoring the railjack.  Despite this, they are bent on getting us to do railjack.

     

     

    As someone who remembers the November "content" that was 72 hours of 12 hour builds, I don't think DE is going to be open to minimizing railjack.  They seem to be bent on getting players to engage with it, hence the listed terrible workshop changes that are so tone deaf.

    • Like 7
  20. 13 minutes ago, DarknessNightshade said:

    Not really, core issue still remains that the drop table is weighted towards the upper tier rewards because it's filled with so many potential drops.

    If you'd looked at the actual drop tables you'd see that for yourself too.

    Lorewise, apparently hundreds of thousands of keys are lost across the void, and we encounter a measly 6 after a good 10 mins or so, that's if you get the common reward, and there's no cap for how "unlucky" one can get, only that it gets more statistically unlikely to not get a drop, theoretically, one can go on playing void storms for an indefinite amount of time and never get a single key drop.

     

     

    You see, this is the problem.  

     

    DE isn't proposing a fix to the 37.5% drop rate.  It's an entire mission, and at best we've got about a 1 in 3 chance of getting the rewards.  I'm sure that they're looking at the math of averages, and the extremes here.  Note, not the extremes that make it bad for players.

    At 10 keys dropped, 37.5 percent of the time, the average per run reward is 3.75.  That's an average of 11 runs.

    At 10 keys dropped, there's a chance you only need 4 runs.  That's 1.98%.  So 1 in about 50 people gets 40 keys in 4 runs.

    At the average of 11 runs, the chance of never getting a single key is 0.62511 or 0.568%.

     

    This means that you run 11 and get anywhere from 110 keys (0.002%) to 0 keys (0.568%).  The average player gets enough for one weapon, with about 6 in 1000 players getting literally nothing for all that time investment.  If there are truly millions of registered loosers, this represents literally thousands of players who spend hours grinding and get nothing for their troubles...especially when the drop tables are littered with one and done rewards.

     

     

    I'm not proposing a fix.  I'm tired of doing DE's work, and then getting ignored.  What I will offer is that with the recent string of bad decisions relating to the veteran players, combined with the push to consolidate players to cross play when this was previously deemed impossible, and with this kind of tone deaf response of a workshop obviously made in response to several recent creators stating in video that this was an utterly borked grind I'm not seeing DE as being worth talking to anymore.  If I don't win the lottery, and have a random twitter posting that matches what the developers believe highlighted as the primary motivation to get a change I want, then it's talking to a brick wall.

     

    Funny though.  Players are having issues with keys and Yareli.  Keys get a review a month later.  Yareli's still in the cold.  The funny part is that this year's post-tennocon distorted bliss seems to not even have lasted a month.  Maybe it's finally time?  Maybe DE will take 15 pages of feedback and significantly alter their plans?  I'm not holding my breath.

    • Like 18
  21. 2 hours ago, Do_High_Go said:

     I get that you have your ideas of how to rectify the situation, but selectively misinterpreting my phrasing, will not telegraph your good intentions very well.

    In my last paragraph, by saying "actually play the game as intended" I was referring to Sabotage missions not being intended to be endless, after all, if they were supposed to be endless, we would at least have sabotage rotations and new objectives, right?  I do not think i was wrong to deduce Sabotage was indeed not intended to be endless, and that is what I meant. The people that want endless long mission can always go to Survival, because it is clear it was intended to be used that way.

    I respectfully deny that an "assumption" of mine about something that is supposed to be common sense, can invalidate even half of what I said.

    Exactly because I Do Not understand what DE intends, I refrained of adding 4 paragraphs of possible solutions. It is pointless in the end, we don't work at DE and our ideas, as good or bad as they may be, are mostly (but maybe not completely) wasted.

    I have observed many people bombarding the Forum with every single possible idea, and the following permutations of those ideas, and then when DE takes an action, those people claim they gave the idea, which is the most silly thing I have ever seen, as if saying every word in the dictionary once means you gave an author the basis for his book and now you are due credit.

    Well, egotistical responses claiming to understand how a game system works, and then proceeding to propose removing the "strong baddie comes out of nowhere and slaps you in the mission" and making it, basically from what i understand, a standalone Boss fight is, what? Disappearing in your own assumptions of how the game mode was meant to be, or rather should i say, proposing to make it how You wish it was, disregarding established ideas that can be extrapolated with common sense. I cannot put my finger on which is worse.

    Also i would like to add, there is quite a big difference between, failing to exploit-proof a game system, and releasing buggy not working content. One requires careful adjustment of existing values, the other, creating those values and hooking them up in the system.

    I am Not a programmer, but i have dabbled and studied coding, so I know i thing or two about how those stuff work. Not that you need to understand coding prior to being able to grasp what was the purpose of something and what wasn't.

    You seem to enjoy using complicated words to burn someone using a point originating from your poor reading comprehension, only to promote your ideas sandwiched between bigoted writing. There was nothing of constructive value in what you said since it is full of hypocrisy.

    Being frustrated with bad design is one thing, being mad that you are not allowed to exploit further - a completely different thing, I hope you can perceive that.

    Maybe I was not clear enough, but even then, Your entire point was that I assumed what the intention was, Yet You Assumed what My Intention Was. Hypocrisy!

     

    Let's keep this snappy.  You seem to have criticism, then do what you say is unreasonable.  Let's keep that in our back pocket.

     

    If you state that you "should play the game as intended," and finish by the assertion that people "are surprised that bank robbers are not invited back into banks" then you've got some very deep issues about what you are assuming about other players.

    Likewise, programming knowledge means nothing.  I can do basic programming...but that means absolutely nothing.  It's a diversion from the reality.  The reality is that companies like DE have a QA department to test for stuff that s broken...and they either are incompetent or they are not given the time to do any real testing.  This is my point with the galvanized mods...and despite this you want to claim knowledge of intent.

     

     

    You're welcome to continue to argue this...my intention was only to highlight that while I agreed with most of what you said, you killed your argument at the finish line with statements which were at best conjecture.  At worst, and from the tone, they seem to be hatred for other players who do not have psychic gifts or the ability to divine what a publisher desires.

    To extend your own example, I programmed an x-y table to create a circle.  It created a mostly circle, but due to internal rounding errors it didn't start and end in the same spot.  If you walked in on the project, given the poor definition of the x-y table, it was maybe possible to make out a circle....but it could also have been a geometric spiral.  You assign intent to a system...and it doesn't match with the actual mechanics.  Your argument would have been infinitely better divorced from that last paragraph.

     

     

     

    Instead of taking this, you want to argue.  Fine.  You win.  Next time I'll let somebody less reasonable fight with you.  My intention was to highlight that DE lied about the systems, and your assignment of blame to players was backwards when the fix was something in DE's reach.  That seems to be unfair...so I acquiesce.  You get the final word...and I look forward to the eventual flame war that will inevitably follow.  It's a necessary next step, when failures by the developer are laid upon the players.

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