Still On The Nova Op Topic

[Cpl_Facehugger]

After reading this: 

 

I don't think he does realize...

Then enlighten me. Explain what the problem is. Because an extra 100% DPS does exactly $&*^ if you get killed halfway through chewing through a boss' enormous health reservoir.

[Hayden11121]

Then enlighten me. Explain what the problem is. Because an extra 100% DPS does exactly $&*^ if you get killed halfway through chewing through a boss' enormous health reservoir.

 

Yes! Doing double damage is worthless!

 

Slowing everything is pointless!

 

WHO NEEDS MORE DAMAGE AND LESS DAMAGE TAKEN?

 

It's not like it doesn't make the boss fight go by twice as quick, and make the damage he can output twice as slow or anything.

 

It's as useless as every other ult...

 

I wish I had a sarcasm font.

[TwiceDead]

Then enlighten me. Explain what the problem is. Because an extra 100% DPS does exactly $&*^ if you get killed halfway through chewing through a boss' enormous health reservoir.

 

I think that no matter what I tell you, you won't change your opinion.

Why do I think so?

You think a debuff that does the following is not good enough:

- Halves fire-rate.

- Halves Melee-rate.

- Halves movement speed.

- Halves the speed of anything that mob(including bosses) is trying to do.

- Causes the affected to take DOUBLE DAMAGE (2x damage). 

 

You might as well cut the boss HP in half, and his damage output in half while you're at it... OH WAIT THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT MOLECULAR PRIME DOES! 

 

Apparently for you it's not good enough in a player vs boss context. 

 

EDIT:

Hayden beat me to it. 

EDIT x2:

Because an extra 100% DPS does exactly $&*^ if you get killed halfway through chewing through a boss' enormous health reservoir.

Moving around tends to help by the way, you know like... Taking cover and stuff... Should you be in danger of dying if the boss looks your way. 

Edited September 5, 2013 by TwiceDead

[gallowsCalibrator]

To be fair, against Vor and Kril, M-Prime doesn't do all that much. Sure, it makes them do less damage and take more, but there's not much point in speeding up the race to the next health checkpoint on Vor and Kril, since you'll just spend more time waiting and less time shooting. On Iliad, I feel that Molecular Prime is almost a liability rather than an asset simply because it makes the bosses slower, making us spend much more time waiting for their invulnerability to run out.

 

Against other bosses, its effect is a lot bigger.

Edited September 5, 2013 by gallowsCalibrator

[RoboDoge]

NOVA OP. NERF PLOX

 

On the more serious note, the longer is use Nova is just see why she doesnt need nerfs.

 

She is onesided frame with little or no utility at all. To dependable on others for survival ( i am scaling her with mobs level 100 or 150+ ). I was also on the band wagon called "nerf nova" when i first got her, but now i might see the point in "dont nerf nova" thoughts.

 

People are calling her OP because of that flashy ( with crazy range ) Molecular Prime. I know she cleans mobs easier than other frames ( energy wise, casting time, etc ) but Nova does only that. She is also one boring frame to play because she is just press 4 to win ( or 2 depending on situation ).

 

Nerfing Nova would completely ruin her, just because she would lose only part of the game where she excels, and that is dealing damage and killing mobs.

Edited September 5, 2013 by RoboDog

[TwiceDead]

Lies(not to insult you and say you're lying though, it's just an expression).

 

I've managed to kill Vor so fast he doesn't get to do anything before he has to jump back into the bubble and cry, partly because he is only about half as fast as he should be. That's one boss out of the picture on Phobos where you have to fight them both at once.

 

As for Lech Kril, you have to go through the stages in the beginning no matter how much damage you do, but he is still slowed down(which can be an annoyance actually because he takes ages finishing the useless swing animations) so his damage output is halved, and when he finally can take damage he will die quite a lot faster while only managing to fire off maybe 1-3 moves before he dies(depending on the teams DPS). 

Halved Movement Speed and Double Damage are both way more useful on higher levels and in boss-fights than that silly explosion at the end, no matter how you look at it. 

[TwiceDead]

NOVA OP. NERF PLOX

 

On the more serious note, the longer is use Nova is just see why she doesnt need nerfs.

 

She is onesided frame with little or no utility at all. To dependable on others for survival ( i am scaling her with mobs level 100 or 150+ ). I was also on the band wagon called "nerf nova" when i first got her, but now i might see the point in "dont nerf nova" thoughts.

 

People are calling her OP because of that flashy ( with crazy range ) Molecular Prime. I know she cleans mobs easier than other frames ( energy wise, casting time, etc ) but Nova does only that. She is also one boring frame to play because she is just press 4 to win ( or 2 depending on situation ).

 

Nerfing Nova would completely ruin her, just because she would lose only part of the game where she excels, and that is dealing damage and killing mobs.

Depends on how they nerf her. If they removed that explosion-chain from Molecular Prime she would still be as viable as ever. If they removed the slow-down and the double-damage debuff, then yeah that's destroy her completely. 

[gallowsCalibrator]

Lies(not to insult you and say you're lying though, it's just an expression).

 

I've managed to kill Vor so fast he doesn't get to do anything before he has to jump back into the bubble and cry, partly because he is only about half as fast as he should be. That's one boss out of the picture on Phobos where you have to fight them both at once.

 

As for Lech Kril, you have to go through the stages in the beginning no matter how much damage you do, but he is still slowed down(which can be an annoyance actually because he takes ages finishing the useless swing animations) so his damage output is halved, and when he finally can take damage he will die quite a lot faster while only managing to fire off maybe 1-3 moves before he dies(depending on the teams DPS). 

Halved Movement Speed and Double Damage are both way more useful on higher levels and in boss-fights than that silly explosion at the end, no matter how you look at it. 

My experience has been that every time we try to dump damage on him he just staggers back and drops into bubble mode. And annoys me, but that's not part of the boss fight.

 

And the useless swing animations taking forever is exactly what I meant. Since he takes forever to do anything (and thus freeze himself), the fight proceeds at a glacial pace until he switches to fire mode.

[TwiceDead]

Ah, my bad. Thanks for clarifying. 

[gallowsCalibrator]

Ah, my bad. Thanks for clarifying. 

No problem, just sharing my personal experience on the matter. Yours being different doesn't mean it's wrong.

Edited September 5, 2013 by gallowsCalibrator

[Liminal]

Being "Made for high level gameplay" is another way of saying "She is overpowered"

Just dropping by to say that by that same logic Radial Disarm is overpowered.

[EinRyu]

That being said I never felt weak with Nova, at all.

 

In trouble? Press 4, everything's damage output slows significantly if it's still alive after the explosion.

I felt that way too... Then, when I was soloing a T3 Exterm I got off an elevator and met 8 lvl 80+ Heavys, yeah... Can't blow them up... 4 shots and done did not work well. Do a Hyena run with Nova and honestly you'll kinda notice she is indeed super squishy, yeah Prime works there but there are situations where Prime is completely worthless and that's when you really see how squishy she is, like a lvl 50 MOA killing her in a matter of like 2 seconds squishy, like the machine gun on Hyena doing over 50 a shot squishy... That kinda squishy. Though you play Loki a lot also right? You're used to the type of game play she does if you don't spam Prime for every "Oh S#&$" Moment you run into.

[Oranjeboom]

She is fine for what she does...

[TwiceDead]

Just dropping by to say that by that same logic Radial Disarm is overpowered.

Difference is that Radial Disarm doesn't annihilate all life at lower levels. Had they removed the explosion at the end, Molecular Prime would be fine. 

[aldershot]

 And everyone will forget about Nova when Necro comes.

yes pls this.

Can't wait for necro to come out.

Prob wont get him, i just want a new witch for the forums to hunt.

[Xeonyx]

TL;DR : read the conclusion at the bottom of the post.

 

And beside this, I don't know how you got the idea that Radial disarm is "made for late game". I mean, it does not trivialize low level missions more than high level ones. The only reason it shines more in late game is because it still works as intended when most of the other ultis do not anymore.

 

Back on M.Prime topic now. Let's look at what it got. (I do not own her personally, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

 

- Huge range (both on the cast and the explosions)

- Super-high damage (not surprising, Nova was made for it)

- A 100% damage boost (once again, Nova's domain)

- A fair CC aspect (50% slowdown)

- A long duration (1 minute, longer than any enemy usually lives)

- Recastable (not too sure about this one, and if it is not, it balances the previous point)

 

And all this with only one downside : the need to get in the middle of the battlefield with a squishy frame (just as Loki or even Nyx for example). Now you can see why this ability is OP. Too many good aspects for the downsides it has. It has almost everything an ulti could use (range, damage, duration, CC).

 

It is obvious that some of these aspects MUST go to prevent the balance of the game. Because, yeah, as Haiden11121 said, it is currently not possible to bring any ability on par with M Prime without making it a M Prime lookalike.So, what could we take out of the equation ?

 

Damage / damage boost

Surely not, this is Nova's niche, what defines her and why people who play her do so. I'm not willing to take that away.

 

Range (both cast + explosions)

Yeah, clearly the best option IMO. Huge damage, small range would be a fair trade-off and still let the skill work as an emergency button. It would stop Nova from annihilating large rooms / defense waves with only one button press, letting her teammates actually playing the game.

 

Plus it could add a more tactical aspect to the use of the skill : try to gather primed and not-primed enemies together before triggering the explosions for max damage. So more synergy with CC / utility frames, which seems logical.

 

Utility (slow-down)

A real nerf to her but clearly not a solution to our problem. It would make the skill less useful at (super)high levels while still trivializing most of the game's content.

 

Duration

Possibly, but this is a less-than ideal solution. It would take away a unique aspect of M Prime over other ultis (you can choose when to trigger the explosions) and the skill would still trivialize most of the game while becoming more difficult to use at high levels when killing anything seems to take ages.

 

 

Conclusion

Reducing M Prime range is IMO the best solution. It does not take away the spirit of the skill, makes it more balanced and renders team-play more rewarding.

[Mosychuk]

What you're all missing here, frankly, is the gravity of Nova's power and the inherent implications of using antimatter as a weapon.

 

Would you have been happier if the enemy's atoms instantly annihiliated after having been exposed, making for instant kills? There's a realistic approach to an antimatter prime. Ice, fire, poison, pressure, gravity, sound, etc. All those combatative elements of the other frames we can actually set a limit on for what kind of damage/effect they can realistically produce, and we can also throw the fact we're in a fantasy universe on top of that. We've also set fantasy limits on Nova's Molecular Prime, because honestly the attack could be much more devastating and "OP."

[Xeonyx]

And ? We're talking about game balance here, not "antimatter should work that way". And yes, Nova's use of antimatter has already been "nerfed" if you look at the real thing. But it is clear that all the "fantasy limitations" that have been put on her are still not enough to prevent her to be OP when compared to the rest of the game content. So yes, M Prime still needs a little downgrade.

[TwiceDead]

 We've also set fantasy limits on Nova's Molecular Prime, because honestly the attack could be much more devastating and "OP."

 

Saying that the ability could've been far more OP than it already is doesn't solve anything. 

I still vote to remove the explosion at the end of a kill on Molecular Prime. The insanely powerful debuff & CC is more than enough IMO. 

 

 

 yeah Prime works there but there are situations where Prime is completely worthless and that's when you really see how squishy she is, like a lvl 50 MOA killing her in a matter of like 2 seconds squishy, like the machine gun on Hyena doing over 50 a shot squishy... 

 

 

There's not a single moment in the game where M.Prime is worthless. None at all. It's always useful, and always will be. 

 

Unless you're trying to use it when there's no enemies around. 

Edited September 5, 2013 by TwiceDead

[Falling_Tide]

I still don't know why we fighting over this, the main thing I see as OP is the fact that Nova can deal 1mil damage with all 3 teammates (and the Nova) firing into an Antimatter drop and droping it with Rhino shout and Prime on...

Note all teammates have to be working together to achieve this amount of damage. (ie point of a coop game)

 

I know people think MPrime is OP but a better way to do it is instead of shout that it is, is talk about exactly what needs to be changed:

 

AOE death explosion damage

 

The Speed Debuff

 

The x2 Damage Debuff

 

Now that I have listed them which needs to be changed, and give me a good reason and argument (Debate) for what and why it needs to be changed.

[TwiceDead]

I know people think MPrime is OP but a better way to do it is instead of shout that it is, is talk about exactly what needs to be changed:

 

AOE death explosion damage

 

The Speed Debuff

 

The x2 Damage Debuff

 

Now that I have listed them which needs to be changed, and give me a good reason and argument (Debate) for what and why it needs to be changed.

 

Because these two are enough, and the first one is unnecessary. It wouldn't harm Nova in any significant way because she still has Anti-matter Drop for damage. 

[Falling_Tide]

Because these two are enough, and the first one is unnecessary. It wouldn't harm Nova in any significant way because she still has Anti-matter Drop for damage. 

 

Hmm I would agree to this if and only if the base Power Usage was dropped from 100 to 75. I would be happy then.

also the lag and host connection problems need to be fixed, as I have pretty much stopped using AM drop do to those 2 problems.

 

The only problem with your idea is when the Nova was created the M prime was voted by the community to have that chainable explosion so by removing said explosion it would no longer be the original idea the community had.

 

The only thing that the skill didn't have is the speed debuff if I remember right which is what DE added to it I think.

[Xeonyx]

Now that I have listed them which needs to be changed, and give me a good reason and argument (Debate) for what and why it needs to be changed.

 

 

Quoted myself. Read the original post if you want my opinion on the other possibilities.

 

Range (both cast + explosions)

Yeah, clearly the best option IMO. Huge damage, small range would be a fair trade-off and still let the skill work as an emergency button. It would stop Nova from annihilating large rooms / defense waves with only one button press, letting her teammates actually playing the game.

 

Plus it could add a more tactical aspect to the use of the skill : try to gather primed and not-primed enemies together before triggering the explosions for max damage. So more synergy with CC / utility frames, which seems logical.

 

[...]

 

Conclusion

Reducing M Prime range is IMO the best solution. It does not take away the spirit of the skill, makes it more balanced and renders team-play more rewarding.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Xeonyx

[Falling_Tide]

 

 

 

Quoted myself. Read the original post if you want my opinion on the other possibilities.

 

 

Hmm I already do that.... but more so when I didn't have my stretch mod and prime at Rank 3

What makes MPrime's range op is the Mods you put on it, have you ever seen an Ember with Max stretch using their Ultimate?

Rather scary sight to behold, I didn't know that things were being killed by the ember until she finally walked far enough for me to see the giant wall of flames.

 

Even tho I haven't said it, I still think its all the mods that make things OP... I mean... For instance I saw a gun that had 180% multishot 2 bullets every shot with 80% for a third, and 100 something % fire rate, with 100 something % damage increase.... doing over 1k damage about every 1 sec

[Falling_Tide]

Even tho I haven't said it, I still think its all the mods that make things OP... I mean... For instance I saw a gun that had 180% multishot 2 bullets every shot with 80% for a third, and 100 something % fire rate, with 100 something % damage increase.... doing over 1k damage about every 1 sec

But I don't think many people would like the idea of nerfing Mods, as it would also affect them....

 

Edit:

 

My point being that you can nerf all the powers you want but with the mods they are going to still be Op

 

and with certain weapon mods, the weapon they are connected to will kill faster than pretty much all Powers

Edited September 5, 2013 by Falling_Tide