I Am Seriously Getting Tired Of Power Creep.

[Thelonious]

I lost faith in Scott last livestream, when he answered that question about prime weapons:

 

"Are you concerned prime weapons are a direct upgrade over their normal counterpart?" (and therefore opening a discussion about power creep)

 

Scott: "No"

 

That's it, no explanation, just "no". I was like, what the...

[Lumireaver]

He doesn't talk much (with us) to begin with. (He doesn't even talk at us.)

 

I'm sure he's got a logical rationale behind his decisions, and being completely and totally opposed to it, it's just eluding us.

[Xylia]

I lost faith in Scott last livestream, when he answered that question about prime weapons:

 

"Are you concerned prime weapons are a direct upgrade over their normal counterpart?" (and therefore opening a discussion about power creep)

 

Scott: "No"

 

That's it, no explanation, just "no". I was like, what the...

 

Wouldn't be much of a "Prime" if it weren't an upgrade over the mundane version.

 

 

prime [prahym] adjective, noun, verb, primed, prim·ing.

adjective

1.

of the first importance; demanding the fullest consideration: a prime requisite.

2.

of the greatest relevance or significance: a prime example.

3.

of the highest eminence or rank: the prime authority on Chaucer.

4.

of the greatest commercial value: prime building lots.

5.

first-rate: This ale is prime!

 

Also,

 

13.

the choicest or best part of anything.

14.

(especially in the grading of U.S. beef) a grade, classification, or designation indicating the highest or most desirable quality.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Xylia

[LikeABawsh]

Yeah, I think they should just stop rewarding players with upgraded weapons for spending some time out of their lives that they'll never actually get back and start having meaningless events with no real weapons worth getting.

 

Instead we should have bland weapons that aren't really variety, just more of the same stuff that struggles at end game content and really aren't worth getting at all, that way we won't have to worry about new power creep weapons.

 

"What about the power creeps we already have?" you may ask. Well kind sir/ma'am, we just simply nerf them! Nerf them to high hell so that there isn't really a point of using them above anything else. No one will complain. Even if they do we'll just call em "QQ'ers," that'll teach em.

 

FFS.

[Xylia]

Yeah, I think they should just stop rewarding players with upgraded weapons for spending some time out of their lives that they'll never actually get back and start having meaningless events with no real weapons worth getting.

 

Instead we should have bland weapons that aren't really variety, just more of the same stuff that struggles at end game content and really aren't worth getting at all, that way we won't have to worry about new power creep weapons.

 

"What about the power creeps we already have?" you may ask. Well kind sir/ma'am, we just simply nerf them! Nerf them to high hell so that there isn't really a point of using them above anything else. No one will complain. Even if they do we'll just call em "QQ'ers," that'll teach em.

 

FFS.

 

Sarcasm, like a baws. I love it.

[Hayden11121]

Yeah, I think they should just stop rewarding players with upgraded weapons for spending some time out of their lives that they'll never actually get back and start having meaningless events with no real weapons worth getting.

 

Instead we should have bland weapons that aren't really variety, just more of the same stuff that struggles at end game content and really aren't worth getting at all, that way we won't have to worry about new power creep weapons.

 

"What about the power creeps we already have?" you may ask. Well kind sir/ma'am, we just simply nerf them! Nerf them to high hell so that there isn't really a point of using them above anything else. No one will complain. Even if they do we'll just call em "QQ'ers," that'll teach em.

 

FFS.

Fallacy at it's finest.

 

"Can't prove a point? Make their point over exaggerated and seem outrageously bad!"

[LikeABawsh]

Fallacy at it's finest.

 

"Can't prove a point? Make their point over exaggerated and seem outrageously bad!"

Aye. Politics in a nut shell.

 

-Edit- 

For the record I could make a point, but as rule #11 of the internet states:

 

"All of your carefully picked out arguments can be easily ignored."

Edited September 4, 2013 by LikeABawsh

[Xylia]

Fallacy at it's finest.

 

"Can't prove a point? Make their point over exaggerated and seem outrageously bad!"

 

You're trying to say their point isn't outrageously bad already?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Xylia

[Lumireaver]

Wouldn't be much of a "Prime" if it weren't an upgrade over the mundane version.

 

A possible application of the "Primes as a super prototypes" idea which doesn't invalidate old content:

 

+ High damage, and a unique crits multiplier while using elemental weaknesses/ hitting weakspots.

– Greater recoil and/or slower fire rate deliberately designed to have greater DPS only if weakspots are exploited.

 

End result: Stronger weapons which are only stronger if the person using them is skillful. 

[Xylia]

A possible application of the "Primes as a super prototypes" idea which doesn't invalidate old content:

 

+ High damage, and a unique crits multiplier while using elemental weaknesses/ hitting weakspots.

– Greater recoil and/or slower fire rate deliberately designed to have greater DPS only if weakspots are exploited.

 

End result: Stronger weapons which are only stronger if the person using them is skillful. 

 

Anywhere else in the world, a "Prime" something is something that is wholly better.

 

You don't go and buy a pack of Prime Beef Steaks only to find that it has less fat, but also more bone than the non-Prime steaks.

 

In the game Metroid Prime, the titular Metroid Prime is stronger than the regular Metroids in every way possible; it has far more power, and no extra weaknesses than the non-Prime Metroids have.

 

Just a few examples to throw out there.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Xylia

[Lumireaver]

 

Anywhere else in the world, a "Prime" something is something that is wholly better.

 

Right, except in those definitions you threw out a minute ago, but let's not look at those.

[LikeABawsh]

 

Anywhere else in the world, a "Prime" something is something that is wholly better.

 

You don't go and buy a pack of Prime Beef Steaks only to find that it has less fat, but also more bone than the non-Prime steaks.

 

In the game Metroid Prime, the titular Metroid Prime is stronger than the regular Metroids in every way possible; it has far more power, and no extra weaknesses than the non-Prime Metroids have.

 

Just a few examples to throw out there.

 

This is the land of gaming. When involving weapons into a game, you must balance them. Making weapons things that are outright better than others in the real world may work, but it certainly doesn't here. Although I see your point in trying to use real-world logic on gaming. It just doesn't cross over well, sadly.

[Xylia]

Right, except in those definitions you threw out a minute ago, but let's not look at those.

 

Uh?

 

a grade, classification, or designation indicating the highest or most desirable quality.

 

indicating the highest or most desirable quality

 

most desirable quality

 

That pretty much infers that it is "THE BEST". Having it be an overall side-grade does not make it "THE BEST". "Prime" is that word you slap on something when you want to tell the world that none of its peers can compare to it.

 

This is the land of gaming. When involving weapons into a game, you must balance them. Making weapons things that are outright better than others in the real world may work, but it certainly doesn't here. Although I see your point in trying to use real-world logic on gaming. It just doesn't cross over well, sadly.

 

You're trying to say the Lato Prime isn't balanced? It isn't the strongest gun in the game, you know. Stronger than the Lato in every way, but yet not stronger than the Despair or Acrid, right?

 

The Strun Wraith might be up there in the top-tier, but I wouldn't be surprised if the SVandal, Ogris, Lanka, Flux Rifle, etc could out-do it.

[ThePresident777]

There might be a power creep issue if there was tons of content.  But there isn't.  So, all this talk of power creep and nerf this that is a waste.  Not only that, but nerfs are about as exiting as 2+2=4.  Because that's what nerfs are.  If A is 500% faster than B then make A = 0.74*B. @(*()$ BOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG.

 

Instead of worrying about power creep we should be asking for fun content that gives all the variety in the game and player base some ....... well, @(*()$ variety, gives everything it's opportunity to shine.  But, nooooooooooo, that would require a little @(*()$ creativity and if there is anything @(*()$ zombie treadmill hamsters hate is @(*()$ creativity. 

Edited September 4, 2013 by ThePresident777

[Hayden11121]

There might be a power creep issue if there was tons of content.  But there isn't.  So, all this talk of power creep and nerf this that is a waste.  Not only that, but nerfs are about as exiting as 2+2=4.  Because that's what nerfs are.  If A is 500% faster than B then make A = 0.74*B. @(*()$ BOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG.

 

Instead of worrying about power creep we should be asking for fun content that gives all the variety in the game and player base some ....... well, @(*()$ variety, gives everything it's opportunity to shine.  But, nooooooooooo, that would require a little @(*()$ creativity and if there is anything @(*()$ zombie treadmill hamsters hate is @(*()$ creativity. 

So much cursing, is it to try and make your point come across better? Because that didn't work so well.

 

Power creep is an issue. 1 weapon, or 500, it IS an issue.

[Xylia]

Also, the only time Primes/Vandals/Wraiths are a problem is when said Prime/Vandal/Wraith is THE most powerful gun, period. And that is only when it is a limited time exclusive weapon.

 

If, for example, the Latron Prime was the current Top Dog, then that's no problem -- anybody can go get one at any time.

 

But if the SVandal was the hands-down best weapon no matter what, then, yes that IS a problem, because it was only available during a 3-day window.

[Xylia]

Power creep is an issue. 1 weapon, or 500, it IS an issue.

 

Except it isn't an issue.

 

This is a game that closely resembles MMORPGs.

 

People expect to PROGRESS their character in a game like this. WTF is the point when you can get the "best" weapons out there and then everything else that's added, are mere side-grades but don't improve your performance at all? Then why even go on? What goals do you have to work towards? There has to be something BETTER to aspire to. Something to work towards, especially if the game is going to be all PvE (which I am in no way complaining about -- I hate PvP; it breeds the worst Humanity has to offer).

[Lumireaver]

Uh?

 

"Most desirable," is a pretty equivocal descriptor.

[Xylia]

"Most desirable," is a pretty equivocal descriptor.

 

Love how you quote part of my post instead of the whole thing, where I said that "Most Desirable" implies "THE BEST", which is what the word is often used to describe.

 

A Prime X means "The Best X". If there's ever any question of which one is better, then you're not talking about a Prime. You're talking about something like 'Enhanced' or something similar.

 

If you had a gun that is Better at A but not as good at B, then it isn't "THE BEST" of that type of gun.

[Hayden11121]

Love how you quote part of my post instead of the whole thing, where I said that "Most Desirable" implies "THE BEST", which is what the word is often used to describe.

 

A Prime X means "The Best X". If there's ever any question of which one is better, then you're not talking about a Prime. You're talking about something like 'Enhanced' or something similar.

 

If you had a gun that is Better at A but not as good at B, then it isn't "THE BEST" of that type of gun.

Ok, since we are going about actual definitions, tell me what vandalized means.

 

Oh, to damage and change it? So why is it better?

 

Wraith? That definitely means "better then", right?

[Xylia]

Ok, since we are going about actual definitions, tell me what vandalized means.

 

Oh, to damage and change it? So why is it better?

 

Wraith? That definitely means "better then", right?

 

Look at the Braton Vandal vs the Braton vs the Braton Prime.

 

The Braton Vandal is.... NOT better than the Braton in every way.

 

And As far as the Wraith goes, well. Does anybody know why they called it the Wraith instead of Strun Prime? Probably because all "Primes" are Orokin Origin, and the Strun is definitely not of Orokin Origin. So they needed something else to call it. *shrugs*

 

Either way there's nothing wrong with the Strun Wraith -- it is an awesome weapon, but it is by far not the "best" weapon which further proves my point that it is, in fact, Balanced. There are better weapons in various ways. Heck, even a Sobek can be better than the Strun Wraith in some situations.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Xylia

[Hayden11121]

Look at the Braton Vandal vs the Braton vs the Braton Prime.

 

The Braton Vandal is.... NOT better than the Braton in every way.

 

And As far as the Wraith goes, well. Does anybody know why they called it the Wraith instead of Strun Prime? Probably because all "Primes" are Orokin Origin, and the Strun is definitely not of Orokin Origin. So they needed something else to call it. *shrugs*

 

Either way there's nothing wrong with the Strun Wraith -- it is an awesome weapon, but it is by far not the "best" weapon which further proves my point that it is, in fact, Balanced. There are better weapons in various ways. Heck, even a Sobek can be better than the Strun Wraith in some situations.

Oh, so now all of a sudden names don't matter? *shrug*

 

Ok then. Well how about Snipetron and Snipetron Vandal? Braton and Braton Vandal? The vandals are better, yet the name suggest they'd be worse.

 

Logic Via Naming isn't good.

[Xylia]

Oh, so now all of a sudden names don't matter? *shrug*

 

Ok then. Well how about Snipetron and Snipetron Vandal? Braton and Braton Vandal? The vandals are better, yet the name suggest they'd be worse.

 

Logic Via Naming isn't good.

 

 

Braton Vandal is not better than the Braton.

 

Braton Vandal has a slower fire rate, same damage. The only upsides is that it has about a half a second reload speed, and slightly less recoil (the regular Braton already has low recoil).

 

The Snipetrons? They both were introduced with the same event, perhaps DE felt the old Snipetron was too weak and decided to add the Snipetron Vandal (and add the old Snipetron for completionists) to the reward pool.

 

EDIT: Also the Lato Vandal has a bit more damage, but slower rate of fire.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Xylia

[Nubsawce]

Can I just ask why it is we even have to care that the definition of Prime means anything, anything at all?

 

DE created the Prime class of weapons. They had complete control over its entry into the game and it is not some irremovable stone pillar in the game.

 

As such, take the damn "Prime" class of weapons and name them "Proto" weapons or something like that and then make them unique prototypes of the weapons they take after. Now they don't have to just be better. Lore didn't die.

 

Problem solved.

[Lumireaver]

...where I said that "Most Desirable" implies "THE BEST..."

 

What you've inferred is, at best, an oversimplification.

 

For starters, there are a number of reasons something might be "desirable." Furthermore, it the space of Warframe lore, it's a pretty safe bet that the "Prime" designation merely denotes Orokin construction and/or origin.