Warframe's Farming Is Boring; Let's Replace It Or Enhance It

[gell]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/2649-the-bane-of-your-existence-farming/

I found the above thread, but it's a 3 week necro, so I'm starting my own, with a different direction.

Farming has its place. Warframe needs to make you repeat content to buy devs time to make more, so farming exists.

But farming is still boring. Refighting a specific boss 100 times is eventually not fun. No one thinks it's fun. People call these things a grind because they feel like work. No one calls something enjoyable a "grind."

It doesn't matter how much longer some other games makes you farm compared to your experience in Warframe. Farming is still simply a mechanic created to draw out content while devs create more. And because the system is random, some people are hit much harder by farming, and by that I mean someone might go 100 runs and get 0 drops they need. I didn't make that up because I've run Jackal 100 times now and have a total of 0 Rhino part blueprints (is there no hidden code to guarantee a drop for poor unlucky souls?). The Bell curve that represents your 30 runs to get all the blueprints also represents my 100 runs to get 0. Any argument that this is acceptable will come from someone in the left or middle part of the curve, where left gets more drops. And everyone has different ideas of what is a lot or what is not, so it's pointless to say that 100 is nothing to you. To me it's reason to quit a game.

The problem: developers need time to make more content, and they want you to keep playing in the meantime.

So then the question becomes, what can you propose to replace or enhance farming? How can you engage a player for 1 full month by other means? These questions could apply to all games, but we just need the proposed answers to apply to one: Warframe.

Don't turn this into a pro-farming argument thread. I don't care. Let's see some proposals because brainstorming and discussions of alternatives breeds creativity.

I can start. I go to work every day making games. I'm surrounded by talent. I don't consider it a grind because every day is different. I'm creating something different. I'm designing something different. I'm having meetings with people of various game-playing skills about how to tackle a feature. None of this is a grind to me. (But I don't make MMOs or persistent online co-op games such as Warframe.)

And as much as every day is me "farming" for money, it's interesting because it's ever changing and new problems arise. So my first suggestion for Warframe is not to remove farming, but to make it interesting. If you have to refight a boss that I have to pretend I didn't yet fight (Lotus is telling me as if I didn't already fight Jackal 50 times prior), make it interesting. No amount of boss AI will do that though. The boss needs random variables. He needs to sometimes use a different weapon or attack. He needs to call for back up. He needs randomized resistance to a weapon or element type. He needs to sometimes lay down his arms, or near enough. He needs to sometimes be devoured by the infected and replaced by something else I didn't expect. As long as this is communicated to the player well, it makes the boss much much better. Most of the ways to do so involve little work, but some are more involved.

That's one idea, anyway. So what can you suggest?

[CY13ERPUNK]

this is still deep in the closed beta

not sure if you are fully aware, but much of the game is placeholder content still

there is MUCH in the works that DE has yet to uncover, I am sure we will all be impressed when the curtain is drawn back the surprises are soon revealed (like the new bosses that are coming, and new maps)

[gell]

I think I'm aware of this CBT lacking content.

But new bosses and new maps will not change how people only move through the map in order to unlock the bosses, then spend 90% of their playtime in the game replaying the one boss level on that planet in order to take a chance at getting a drop.

Talking about farming, not content. More content is inevitable, and with the state of this game, it's obviously meant to be a platform for DE to make money for a while.

e.g. It doesn't matter how long Vindictus (Mabinogi Heroes) has been out: farming for enough mats to craft the really rare armor takes weeks for one piece. It's the same boss over and over. And yet there are dozens and dozens of bosses and raids in that game. Do you see what I mean?

Edited February 12, 2013 by gell

[11.11.11]

this is still deep in the closed beta

not sure if you are fully aware, but much of the game is placeholder content still

there is MUCH in the works that DE has yet to uncover, I am sure we will all be impressed when the curtain is drawn back the surprises are soon revealed (like the new bosses that are coming, and new maps)

As much as this is true, I think it's also tantamount to a convenient excuse along the lines of. "God moves in mysterious ways."

Yes, DE have shown that they're good at communicating with their audience. Yes, they've released an origional, interesting, and high quality Beta.

But that dosn't mean we should sit back and accept that there is a load of hidden content waiting in the wings, and hence, we shouldn't feel the need to provide constructive criticism about what we have in our hands right now. The developers of Warframe have seen fit to provide us with a closed Beta. They've thrown their sketchings of a game out to us for the specific purpose of getting feedback about what would make it better as a full release title. That is the entire purpose of a Beta.

DE are big girls and boys - they can take care of themselves - they don't need protection from the fans. What they need, what they have asked for, is our honest opinons of what they have so far given us. And that is what the OP is doing here. Stating that they clearly see a problem with the methods of farming currently in place, and - that for the final build - or over the next Beta patches - they'd like to see some improvement.

While it would be ignorant to complain of lacking content in a beta - it is equally ignorant to claim that a beta is exempt from criticism because it's unfinished.

I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted what you were trying to say Cy13erPunk, but I keep encountering threads where good feedback is being turned down on the basis that "it's a beta, it's not finished, stop whining and go play a full release." Which is nonsense. Especially when said threads are in the "Improving Warframe" section.

Edited February 12, 2013 by 11.11.11

[neKroMancer]

Players need to be distracted from grinding or create a gameplay which concentrate on farming but without being too obvious.

My idea is create series of side missions involving Warframe's past to distract player from the current mindless grinding. Ancestral memory side missions.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/9753-single-player-ancestral-memory/

[Rynax]

I think I get what you are trying to say. We need SOME form of endgame that can keep us engaged. At the moment, I have every frame except for Loki and Volt, and my Loki is currently building. What will I do after I have created/leveled my Volt to 30? I won't even have an objective anymore, nor a reason to play the game. One of the best endgames in situations like this would be some sort of PvP system, since PvP doesn't really get stale. This is, however, not the direction this game is headed in, so I too would like to see some good suggestions for endgame content. PLEASE don't say raids...

[CY13ERPUNK]

they could implement something like what City of Heroes did (and Diablo 2 worked similar as does Path of Exile)

where certain types of missions did have specific loot tables, but drops were random across the board

thusly you could run the "raids" or task/strike forces as they were called and you'd have better odds for "some" drops

but for the most part, any mob in the game and any content could be ran at pretty equivalent loot drop rates

this meant that people could play in groups and be rewarded for it, but they could also solo and not feel like they were missing out on all that much

currently right now in Warframe if I want a specific material, say Neurodes, then i have the best chances to farm the boss of that planetary system that includes then on that systems loot tables, because the rest of the levels in that system are FAR less efficient to farm and break crates hoping for drops, the boss drops materials MUCH MORE consistently

if DE wants players to farm maps other than boss maps then they need to incentivize the value of other missions

I propose changing the loot tables to have certain mission types being much more effective for certain types of loot, say bosses for mods, spying for certain mats, sabotage for other mats, etc

I think it might also be a good idea to NOT have specific bosses drop certain unique BP's, then ppl would not farm the Jackal for Rhino BP's because they'd have an equal chance for Rhino BP's to drop from any boss or other content (for example)

[CY13ERPUNK]

I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted what you were trying to say Cy13erPunk, but I keep encountering threads where good feedback is being turned down on the basis that "it's a beta, it's not finished, stop whining and go play a full release." Which is nonsense. Especially when said threads are in the "Improving Warframe" section.

hey np, its hard to get a point across in txt

i dont mean to poopoo anyones input or ideas (well unless i think they're bad ideas, but thats another matter)

i just said what I said because the OP mentioned a lot about boss encounters, and specifically I know that most of the boss encounters are still a work in progress (we can all tell this from the Lotus's improved narration during the missions, I cant wait to see what the J3-Golem is going to turn into, and Hyena as well)

a big problem with the whole "endgame" logic and "what do i do now?" is that it is objective and goal based gaming

if you are only playing the game to reach an objective or goal then yes once you reach that then you're done

but if you are playing the game because you enjoy THE GAME, then you don't need an "endgame"

of course this is more complex than i just made it sound (MOBA's and PVP games get around this because every match is a "new game"), but the gist is, DE just needs to make playing Warframe fun, and as long as that is their number one priority, I think everything else will fall in line

additionally, Warframe WILL be getting PVP eventually, it might be after release or awhile off, but it's pretty much an inevitability (im not screaming for it or crying about it, because i know it will happen, just not when)

[BramBlackmon]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/10218-an-ideal-for-dealing-with-warframe-grinding/#entry82127 I posted this in Warframe and Weapons Feedback. It's meant to be a simple solution to the very problem you're discussing. I'm sure other people could come up with equally valuable ways of doing it.

The key here is not to rely on more content, but to spread the farming out over available content so that we don't play the hell out of one specific mission whilst ignoring all the others. I've always been greatly bothered when devs do this. It tends to be a by product of creating false difficulty levels.Which is something that is easy to program from a developer's perspective but It makes the game go stagnant a little too easily.

[11.11.11]

hey np, its hard to get a point across in txt

Good to see there are still reasonable people, capable of seeing that everything isn't a personal insult - on the internet.

Kudos, and hopefully we can come up with some good ideas in this thead.

[UkyoSonoda]

Another idea would be implement something similar to Phantasy Star Universe's Guardian Boost Road. This would be a rotation of mission paths that followed from start to finish would cause a small drop rate boost on each successive mission on the road until you reached the end of it.

[Mak_Gohae]

Maybe each planet has their own alert missions where the drop rate is higher than normal?

[Archade]

I enjoy farming xini for mods all day. What the game does need is some parallel objective. I'll repeat here that rank needs to not be tied to weapon/frame level but straight exp accumulation. Then make rank do more than just unlock some weapons. - actually, why not remove exp lock. It really adds nothing but arbitrary frustration.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Archade

[Nubsawce]

I will throw out an idea here for making farming less of a boss-kill-repeat. Perhaps successfully completing missions in a particular location grants you some form of more generic building material as a reward; that is, you farm Saturn and get X material always in smaller amounts (perhaps still getting bonus materials from drops, perhaps not). Same for all planets. We can then have Y blueprint requiring X material from three different planets, and you mix the planets up randomly to make each blueprint require different areas. This way, grinding a boss would be more about finding mods and blueprints, not getting the materials to make them.

In this way, you can perform any mission in the given location with relatively the same reward.

It's an idea I thought of while reading these posts. Do with it what you will, criticize it and try to make a better plan to propose, whatever works.

[UkyoSonoda]

Meh just implement Tenno player quarters. You have a little room you can decorate instead of floating on a solar map. Some of the decorations are in the market for credits. Some are in the market for plat. The rest is rare drops. And we're talking rare drop that is a different deco item on EVERY mission... You know ppl are going to want them all... To get them all you play every single mission until you get it then move to the next. :P

lol

[Volume]

Where do you work, OP?

[gell]

I love all the ideas here. It shows we aren't content with farming how it is, even if it's a pretty necessary evil that probably won't be removed from this game entirely.

Meh just implement Tenno player quarters.

I always like having an end game like decorating a house (especially if I can invite others into it), but I am not sure that fits WF. More importantly, it may not really matter in regards to farming. It's something to think about, but I don't see it affecting farming much beyond giving us more stuff to collect, which could be good.

Where do you work, OP?

I work at Obsidian Entertainment. I did not design any of our released games, so don't let this credit nor discredit me based on your own thoughts about Fallout: New Vegas, Alpha Protocol, etc. :D

[Archade]

^

I am content with it. In fact its one of the few things the game does right. There are no bumps in the road replaying a mission over and over. You click go and you go, its smooth, easy, repetitive, and addicting. Everything a good grinding game should be.

What we need is better/more things to grind for. Something that is not based only on drops, but which is guaranteed gain even if we don't get what we are looking for.

That way people don't feel like they are wasting their time, which is what the real complaint here is.

Replace the games smooth grinding experience with a bunch of gimmicks or tedious things and it will pretty much be ripping out one of the few things that does work well in the game.

System works, rewards are broken.

[grimloki]

^

I am content with it. In fact its one of the few things the game does right. There are no bumps in the road replaying a mission over and over. You click go and you go, its smooth, easy, repetitive, and addicting. Everything a good grinding game should be.

What we need is better/more things to grind for. Something that is not based only on drops, but which is guaranteed gain even if we don't get what we are looking for.

That way people don't feel like they are wasting their time, which is what the real complaint here is.

Replace the games smooth grinding experience with a bunch of gimmicks or tedious things and it will pretty much be ripping out one of the few things that does work well in the game.

System works, rewards are broken.

I almost entirely agree with this. Grinding is a matter of how you play, rather than what you are playing. That said, I'm interested in rewards that change the way I play the game, to keep it interesting.

[KyleOne]

I like the OP's boss variables idea. If we're brainstorming here without limits, I'd like to see changes on my Tenno.

When I install the orokin reactor it would be fun to see it glowing faintly from the inside where the heart is.

Or if they change the skill use system, I'd like a Rhino that specs one way or the other to show embellishments on his shoulders or forehead or whatever. Not a huge thing, but an expression of choice.

I'd also consider the idea of leveling up spells by usage. Probably couple this with a new resource system so that using Volt's shield is fun rather than a waste of energy. I would love to see spells and weapons visually level up as well as do more damage. Let a spell casting Ash throw ninja stars all day next to a teleport Ash. And let them look different and see each other knowing what the other has chosen.

[Sowlsteeler]

Refighting a specific boss 100 times is eventually not fun. No one thinks it's fun. People call these things a grind because they feel like work. No one calls something enjoyable a "grind."

Oh really? Never had six girls *grinding* on you before, eh?

That's nearly all I have to say. Other than "sexy dancing," yes, grinding is always a pejorative.

- Has been mentioned but "linked" missions would be great reason to go to x, y location

- Requires huge redesign but drops should be based on the number of average hours a player plays (at his rank), and compare this to the average hours other players of similar levels are playing. This saves the dude who can only play once a week for a few hours, likes warframe, but thinks it takes way too much time to get into to, from quiting. New players who don't play much are rewarded enough to stick around to level up and high-level players are still getting more loot than they are now without breaking the game. Easier said than done, no doubt.

- Dungeon Event Randomization (why can't there be an Infestation attack halfway en route to the Jackal? Why can't the prisoner we were supposed to rescue actually turn out to be a boss?)

- Mini-bosses. Make their appearances random and put them *everywhere*.

- Rival Tenno: what about two teams in one level with seperate objectives? Maybe they affect each other, maybe they see each other, maybe even compete with each other. And it's still not PVP.

[R4YCH40S]

Guys,how about reading my proposal and comment on it?

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/10435-suggestionmake-a-new-mission-jailbreak/

[Vant]

heres a distraction from farming, playing the game, and killing things, enjoy the action, come up with new ways to transverse the maps, make up style kills, etc... theres more to do then just farm mindless to get items you want.

[PhoenixMercurous]

I agree that bosses need a lot of work. They need to actually invovle tactics, and those tactics can't be the same every time. Currently bosses are just piles of HP and damage with little tactics involved. Jackel and the Corpus sniper guy are the only bosses that requires more tactics beyond "shoot in in the face until it dies without getting killed yourself." Hek shouldn't act the same as the Saturn boss, but they just about do. Hek's got a shotgun, he should have his lancers try and pin you down and seperate the squad so he can rush one isolate person and blow him appart without taking fire from the entire squad. He should also rely more on support troops, as he's a counciler, while the other grineer bosses are war heroes and generals. The saturn boss has the gorgon, so he should try and keep a bit of distance and keep you out in the open so he can mow you down. Giving the bosses tactics would require nerfing their other aspects, but it would be managable. Kril should be able to fight flexibly at every range and adapt his tactics to counter whatever squad he's up agaisnt. Trying to keep your distance to avoid his hammer? Enjoy having his troops pin you down so he can get in close. Melee your strong range? He's going to keep his distance, and have his troops stall you so you can't close in. Maybe send in a few grinders so you can't close quickly.

Lotus claims killing bosses will have an affect on the region, but it doesn't right now. That needs to change and hopefully DE has plans on how to change it. For example, killing Earth's boss could trigger all the Earth missions to switch from being Grineer to being some other faction for a little while, reflecting how the Grineer command structure is in chaos and they can't effectively deploy troops until they get another counciler. Every time you play Everest, it pulls a new name from a table and randomly gives it some new tricks and a different gun.

Some multistage bosses would also be cool. Maybe it's just the Metroid Prime fan in me talking, but I like bosses that break down and change as you blow them apart. Have a fight that starts with a Grineer piloting a mech (think something a bit bigger and bulkier than Jackel) that has to change its tactics every time you blow a limb off. Eventually the mech can't function and the pilot gets out and fights you on foot. This would allow for more random elements, as each stage to the boss can be randomly pulled from a table, allowing for a huge number of combinations with a couple of tables with several entries.

[FruitNinja4]

this is still deep in the closed beta

not sure if you are fully aware, but much of the game is placeholder content still

there is MUCH in the works that DE has yet to uncover, I am sure we will all be impressed when the curtain is drawn back the surprises are soon revealed (like the new bosses that are coming, and new maps)

Not any more. We're moving into open beta, which means minor tweaks and polish before "release". All of that hope you have is about to go up in smoke, and more's the pity.